Plurals
Plurals
Not really a bug, but have had MILEAGES and GUSTOS disallowed today when both should really be accepted.
Have accepted MILEAGES on the show and going from the dictionary, GUSTOS is perfectly valid.
I want compensating or i'll call Ken Bates.
Have accepted MILEAGES on the show and going from the dictionary, GUSTOS is perfectly valid.
I want compensating or i'll call Ken Bates.
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Re: Bug reports
I'm not convinced GUSTOS should be OK. Give me the sense in which you think a plural should be accepted.D Eadie wrote: and going from the dictionary, GUSTOS is perfectly valid.
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Re: Bug reports
GUSTO > noun [mass noun]
No plurals for mass nouns
No need for debate, dems the rules
However....... it then lists
.[in sing.] archaic a relish or liking: he had a particular gusto for those sort of performances
so if you can have a gusto for one thing can't you have gustos for many different things? I have gustos for chocolate, marshmallows and cheese.
not elegant but not illegal, no more than all these 'nesses'
No plurals for mass nouns
No need for debate, dems the rules
However....... it then lists
.[in sing.] archaic a relish or liking: he had a particular gusto for those sort of performances
so if you can have a gusto for one thing can't you have gustos for many different things? I have gustos for chocolate, marshmallows and cheese.
not elegant but not illegal, no more than all these 'nesses'
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Re: Bug reports
Happy with the [in sing] explanation I think. In which case ESCHATONS and COGITOS should be in too.
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Re: Bug reports
Logically, yes. But I'm sure any minute now somebody more knowledgeable is gonna chip in and say that they are special cases. When was the English language ever logical!
Also I think [in sing] may have to stay in the singular as opposed to a [count noun] which can be pluralised
PS don't think this lives in bugs thread any more, sorry Charlie.
Thats why I started the 'Words you woulda thought' thread.
Also I think [in sing] may have to stay in the singular as opposed to a [count noun] which can be pluralised
PS don't think this lives in bugs thread any more, sorry Charlie.
Thats why I started the 'Words you woulda thought' thread.
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Re: Plurals
GUSTOES surely?
16/10/2007 - Episode 4460
Dinos Sfyris 76 - 78 Dorian Lidell
Proof that even idiots can get well and truly mainwheeled.
Dinos Sfyris 76 - 78 Dorian Lidell
Proof that even idiots can get well and truly mainwheeled.
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Re: Plurals
I think it's fairly clear when a word ends in O - if the dictionary thinks it should be pluralised it will be listed, since O is not deemed to be "regular".Kai Laddiman wrote:GUSTOES surely?
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Re: Plurals
It would be nice to think so, but I don't think the logic will stand up given that 1) plenty of words which have disputable inflections do not have them listed 2) lots of plurals are listed which shouldn't exist by its own rules.Gavin Chipper wrote:I think it's fairly clear when a word ends in O - if the dictionary thinks it should be pluralised it will be listed, since O is not deemed to be "regular".
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Re: Plurals
What about GUNMETALS in the sense of it being a colour?
I had OPALINES disallowed tho it's been given on the show but I can see why the plural may be questionable.
I had OPALINES disallowed tho it's been given on the show but I can see why the plural may be questionable.
Re: Bug reports
Kirk Bevins wrote:I'm not convinced GUSTOS should be OK. Give me the sense in which you think a plural should be accepted.D Eadie wrote: and going from the dictionary, GUSTOS is perfectly valid.
In the sense that your opponent spots it in the next C of C and you don't......?
Re: Bug reports
Kirk Bevins wrote:Happy with the [in sing] explanation I think. In which case ESCHATONS and COGITOS should be in too.
COGITO isn't listed as a mass noun so HAS to be allowed, dictionary mistake or not, likewise ESCHATONS. Certainly would be allowed on the TV show at least.
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Re: Bug reports
Apterous has a TV show?D Eadie wrote:Kirk Bevins wrote:Happy with the [in sing] explanation I think. In which case ESCHATONS and COGITOS should be in too.
COGITO isn't listed as a mass noun so HAS to be allowed, dictionary mistake or not, likewise ESCHATONS. Certainly would be allowed on the TV show at least.
Re: Bug reports
There's a really similar game on Channel 4 about 3:25pm Mon to Fri. I think Charlie should demand royalties!Dinos Sfyris wrote:Apterous has a TV show?D Eadie wrote:Kirk Bevins wrote:Happy with the [in sing] explanation I think. In which case ESCHATONS and COGITOS should be in too.
COGITO isn't listed as a mass noun so HAS to be allowed, dictionary mistake or not, likewise ESCHATONS. Certainly would be allowed on the TV show at least.
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Re: Bug reports
Magic! Commission at least (I know someone on here had at least a cheque for a grand, and those dictionaries'd go for at least a tenner on Ebay... I'm sure you could track them down if you tried )Julie T wrote:There's a really similar game on Channel 4 about 3:25pm Mon to Fri. I think Charlie should demand royalties!
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Re: Plurals
On the subject of plurals, maybe you'd know about this Lesley, what's up with this?
Hexanes & Heptanes, allowed. Methanes, ethanes, etc, not allowed.
Ethanols, and Propanols allowed, Methanols, Butanols, Heptanols and all of those aren't allowed.
Hexanes & Heptanes, allowed. Methanes, ethanes, etc, not allowed.
Ethanols, and Propanols allowed, Methanols, Butanols, Heptanols and all of those aren't allowed.
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Re: Plurals
On that subject, having a certain word disallowed could give you propane nightmares...
16/10/2007 - Episode 4460
Dinos Sfyris 76 - 78 Dorian Lidell
Proof that even idiots can get well and truly mainwheeled.
Dinos Sfyris 76 - 78 Dorian Lidell
Proof that even idiots can get well and truly mainwheeled.
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Re: Plurals
As far as I know, you can have hexanes, heptanes, etc because there is more than one type of them. You can have different hexanes. However, there is only one type of methane or ethane.Shaun Hegarty wrote:On the subject of plurals, maybe you'd know about this Lesley, what's up with this?
Hexanes & Heptanes, allowed. Methanes, ethanes, etc, not allowed.
Ethanols, and Propanols allowed, Methanols, Butanols, Heptanols and all of those aren't allowed.
I'm a bit confused about the -ols, because it should be the same scenario. I thought there was only one kind of methanol or ethanol, but multiple propanols and upwards.
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Re: Plurals
Interesting! But dunno.Shaun Hegarty wrote:On the subject of plurals, maybe you'd know about this Lesley, what's up with this?
Hexanes & Heptanes, allowed. Methanes, ethanes, etc, not allowed.
Ethanols, and Propanols allowed, Methanols, Butanols, Heptanols and all of those aren't allowed.
At first I thought it was likely to be their states of matter as methane/ethane/propane/butane are all gases, but so's pentane and that's a mass noun too. Hexane and heptane are just nouns, but octane, nonane and decane are mass nouns again. I wondered if it might be isomerisation (as chemical nomenclature is determined by things like the number of carbons in the structure and there are still many archaic terms in in use even those these have been superseded) but while methane, ethane and propane all have no isomers to speak of, butane onwards certainly does. I would say (and it obviously counts for nothing as it's what the dictionary says that matters) that methane, ethane and probably propane could reasonably be called mass nouns, but that butane onwards really ought to be a noun as there are different types.
Curiously I checked alkane (as these all are) and that's just a noun, and specifically lists methane and ethane as examples.
Similarly, methanol and ethanol could reasonably be called mass nouns as they don't do anything much, but there is certainly propan-1-ol and propan-2-ol, same with butanol, pentan-1, 2, or 3-ol (even and!!), so these really ought to be nouns. IMVHO. There are grades of ethanol, though, like absolute ethanol used for commercial purposes as opposed to the stuff that we (I, anyway ), drink, so maybe they should all just be nouns.
I might write to the nice people and point out these irregularities and see what they say. I do like to make myself popular like that
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Re: Plurals
They might well listen to you, I've had some success in the past.Lesley Hines wrote:I might write to the nice people and point out these irregularities and see what they say. I do like to make myself popular like that
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Re: Plurals
Thanks for the response Lesley, I was thinking along the lines of isomers and such, but it just didn't seem to fit. Like you said about about the different types of Ethanols, industrial and commercial, perhaps that 's what happens with Heptanes too, one for Octane number comparison, and ones for other things. Perhaps it could be said that cyclohexane is one of several hexanes?
There are so many hydrocarbons missing too. The aldehydes only go as far as ethanal. And alkenes only as far as propene. It would open up a few extra useful words.
You should write Lesley, if anything happens, perhaps it could be brought up when you're on the show
The reason I was asking was because I got heptane and pentane and DC had heptanes in a round today, So I wondered about pentanes, and I'm pretty sure I've declared butanols at some point.
There are so many hydrocarbons missing too. The aldehydes only go as far as ethanal. And alkenes only as far as propene. It would open up a few extra useful words.
You should write Lesley, if anything happens, perhaps it could be brought up when you're on the show
The reason I was asking was because I got heptane and pentane and DC had heptanes in a round today, So I wondered about pentanes, and I'm pretty sure I've declared butanols at some point.
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Re: Plurals
Haha but there are loads of good words missing (most notably octochamp!!) from the dictionary. They've got pretty strict inclusion criteria that works out stuff like how often it's used and in what context, in what type of breadth of material and timespan, effect on language and its generative properties etc. Susie Dent's written some interesting stuff about it in her books. However, in the introduction of the ODE they do acknowledge that it's the official dictionary for some word games including Countdown, so I think it would be useful to standardise them. Maybe to put all your standard groups (alkanes, alkenes, aldehydes, esters, ketones etc.) up to 10. And to decide what's a mass noun and what isn't (no isomers=mass, e.g.).Shaun Hegarty wrote:There are so many hydrocarbons missing too. The aldehydes only go as far as ethanal. And alkenes only as far as propene. It would open up a few extra useful words.
The worst they can do is ignore me Heh - and they won't be the first!
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Re: Plurals
Cheers Charlie that makes me more confident!Charlie Reams wrote:They might well listen to you, I've had some success in the past.
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Re: Plurals
The unsaturated ones are a similar case, with ethenes and ethynes being valid in spite of having no isomers (propenes is invalid; I've not found any others listed.)Lesley Hines wrote:Interesting! But dunno.Shaun Hegarty wrote:On the subject of plurals, maybe you'd know about this Lesley, what's up with this?
Hexanes & Heptanes, allowed. Methanes, ethanes, etc, not allowed.
Ethanols, and Propanols allowed, Methanols, Butanols, Heptanols and all of those aren't allowed.
I wondered if it might be isomerisation (as chemical nomenclature is determined by things like the number of carbons in the structure and there are still many archaic terms in in use even those these have been superseded) but while methane, ethane and propane all have no isomers to speak of, butane onwards certainly does.
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Re: Plurals
Rightio, after a bit of research into all of that I can't see any chemical reason for the variation, but I have revised some really interesting stuff I know my pi from my sigma overlaps now, I can tell you!
Generally - alkane (N) - Mass - exception Hexane and Heptane - only goes to decane
Alkene (N) - nouns - only goes to propene
Alkyne (N) - nouns only ethyne listed anyway
Alcohol (MN) - Mass except for ethanol, only goes to Butanol
Ketone (N) only lists propanone (N)
Ester (N) - all nouns, goes to pentanoate and methanoate's not listed
Radicals - (N) all present to decyl, all nouns.
I've only researched the obvious stuff but hopefully they'll sort it all out beautifully for the next edition
HTH
Edit - and while I'm at it I'm going to have flippin' gauze changed to be included as a count noun! I used them on tripods for years - the drawer was labelled gauzes and everything!
Generally - alkane (N) - Mass - exception Hexane and Heptane - only goes to decane
Alkene (N) - nouns - only goes to propene
Alkyne (N) - nouns only ethyne listed anyway
Alcohol (MN) - Mass except for ethanol, only goes to Butanol
Ketone (N) only lists propanone (N)
Ester (N) - all nouns, goes to pentanoate and methanoate's not listed
Radicals - (N) all present to decyl, all nouns.
I've only researched the obvious stuff but hopefully they'll sort it all out beautifully for the next edition
HTH
Edit - and while I'm at it I'm going to have flippin' gauze changed to be included as a count noun! I used them on tripods for years - the drawer was labelled gauzes and everything!
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Re: Plurals
Lesley I think you're really cool
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Re: Plurals
I haven't got an up-to-date dictionary but certainly in the past the OUP were hopeless at chemistry. In the NODE
Elements appear to be all mass nouns, surely correctly, but SULFUR is only shown as an American spelling, whereas it is also the internationally-agreed technical spelling. For me, SULFUR is OK, but, say, SULFUROUS is not.
Compounds are all over the place. FLUORIDE has two common meanings. The stuff in toothpaste, which is a mass noun, and a compound of fluorine with another element, which is a count noun. Both are mass nouns in the NODE.
The selection the other day gave both PENTANES and HEPTANES. Both NODE definitions refer to them having isomers. One is a mass noun, one is a count noun. For me, both are mass nouns, in the same way as the main meaning of GRANITE or CHEESE. The issue for Countdown would then be whether they are countable mass nouns. For me they wouldn't be. Common usage would refer to different cheeses, but to different isomers of heptane rather than different heptanes. Mind you, I wouldn't go for different granites either. What's important is consistency and predictability.
Our resident expert is Kevin Thurlow, of course.
Elements appear to be all mass nouns, surely correctly, but SULFUR is only shown as an American spelling, whereas it is also the internationally-agreed technical spelling. For me, SULFUR is OK, but, say, SULFUROUS is not.
Compounds are all over the place. FLUORIDE has two common meanings. The stuff in toothpaste, which is a mass noun, and a compound of fluorine with another element, which is a count noun. Both are mass nouns in the NODE.
The selection the other day gave both PENTANES and HEPTANES. Both NODE definitions refer to them having isomers. One is a mass noun, one is a count noun. For me, both are mass nouns, in the same way as the main meaning of GRANITE or CHEESE. The issue for Countdown would then be whether they are countable mass nouns. For me they wouldn't be. Common usage would refer to different cheeses, but to different isomers of heptane rather than different heptanes. Mind you, I wouldn't go for different granites either. What's important is consistency and predictability.
Our resident expert is Kevin Thurlow, of course.
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Re: Plurals
David Williams wrote:Our resident expert is Kevin Thurlow, of course.
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Re: Plurals
Magic thanks You can beat me any time you like, you charmerDinos Sfyris wrote:Lesley I think you're really cool
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Re: Plurals
I think so - I'm not bothered which they are - there are arguments for both. I'd argue that hydrogen bonds with two oxygens, for example. (Mind you, I can argue in an empty room - proper bird ) I'm just going to point out the inconsistencies and leave it to the nice lexicographers. It does say at the start that mass nouns are subject to adjudication, and I'm in no position to adjudicate.David Williams wrote: The selection the other day gave both PENTANES and HEPTANES. Both NODE definitions refer to them having isomers. One is a mass noun, one is a count noun. For me, both are mass nouns, in the same way as the main meaning of GRANITE or CHEESE. The issue for Countdown would then be whether they are countable mass nouns. For me they wouldn't be. Common usage would refer to different cheeses, but to different isomers of heptane rather than different heptanes. Mind you, I wouldn't go for different granites either. What's important is consistency and predictability.
Our resident expert is Kevin Thurlow, of course.
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Re: Plurals
Shows how out of date I am. It was the other way round when I were a lad.Lesley Hines wrote:I'd argue that hydrogen bonds with two oxygens, for example.
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Re: Plurals
You asshulme she's talking about a single molecule of H20 then and not the intermolecular hydrogen bonding to other oxygen(s)?
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Re: Plurals
That's really funny. You're quite right, things haven't changed that much!! Haha oh dear, it'd been a long day. Told you I could argue in an empty room!David Williams wrote:Shows how out of date I am. It was the other way round when I were a lad.Lesley Hines wrote:I'd argue that hydrogen bonds with two oxygens, for example.
Edit: I'd argue that oxygen bonds with two hydrogens, for example
Sorry Will read before I hit submit in future
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Re: Plurals
There is that but basically I was just wrong. AgainDinos Sfyris wrote:You asshulme she's talking about a single molecule of H20 then and not the intermolecular hydrogen bonding to other oxygen(s)?
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