Politics in General

[Gavin Chipper]

So it's just insane. Insane YouTube clips as well. OK.

[Fiona T]

Well I think we need to remember that just one participant in this discussion is having to decamp to bomb shelters regularly, so fun/passionate/well-intended though internet debates might be, let's recognise the human element.

Similarly a "fuck them" attitude means that ordinary people, some who may support the regime, most who don't, also face real fear and danger, and are probably less well insulated against it.

"Iran", "Israel", "Palenstine", (even "USA") aren't just regimes, they're mostly innocent people with real lives, loves, sorrows and fears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYeekQkAdc

[Gavin Chipper]

Fair enough, though I prefer this song of theirs.

On a separate note, what's with NATO countries spending 5% on defence? Is this just scaremongering, or is it really necessary? If you get any sort of full-scale world war, the damage is likely done, and the nukes will probably come out! And if not, it's unlikely to be necessary. It's been said that impoverishing countries in this way will actually help e.g. Russia.

[Rhys Benjamin]

On a separate note, what's with NATO countries spending 5% on defence? Is this just scaremongering, or is it really necessary? If you get any sort of full-scale world war, the damage is likely done, and the nukes will probably come out! And if not, it's unlikely to be necessary. It's been said that impoverishing countries in this way will actually help e.g. Russia.

Russia, Iran, and China are an axis of evil. The West's reaction to anything Ukraine have asked for in their defence of Russia is "er maybe yeah but no but yeah but no but... oh alright then", by which point it's 3 months down the line.

How long before Russia attacks a NATO country? Not long. And because of, frankly, ridiculous far leftists telling us to stop spending money on defence and even more on benefits, we will not be able to defend ourselves or engage in an Article 5 scenario.

[Gavin Chipper]

This "axis of evil" seems a bit simplistic. In any case, attacking a NATO country would be a massive risk for them. I'm not sure what you think they'd stand to gain from it.

Edit - It's also just because Donald Trump said so. So it's just for political reasons, trying to stay on the right side of the insane boss essentially. It wasn't really a thing until he started whining about it.

[Tal Lessner]

Well I think we need to remember that just one participant in this discussion is having to decamp to bomb shelters regularly, so fun/passionate/well-intended though internet debates might be, let's recognise the human element.

Fiona, I try not to fully involve my personal experience in this discussion, and obviously I know that the civilians in Israel (those who don't live near the Gaza or Lebanon borders) suffering is a mild inconvenience compared to those in the countries we're at war against.
But I do think that the fact I live here gives me a more rounded picture, my main issue with Gavin's post is that he paints Israel's enemies as peace loving little kittens.

I am of the Israeli version of what Rhys has called "ridiculous far leftists", but I try living in the real world.
And in the real world Hamas went on one of the largest scale terrorist attack in history, Hezbollah joined straight away, the Houthis in Yemen joined despite all of them probably never meeting a Palestinian person in their lives, and all this was orchestrated under direct Iranian orders, with weapons supplied by Iran and with Iranian intelligence and military generals dictating strategy. Same Iran that is openly calling for the destruction of Israel and definitely spends a lot of its nuclear research and production on weapons and not only energy.

Back in Israel, I stopped arguing about politics with right wingers, I realised it's just like discussing a countdown numbers game with a person who knows for a fact that 3+3 = 44. Feels like it's the same talking to Gavin.

"Iran", "Israel", "Palenstine", (even "USA") aren't just regimes, they're mostly innocent people with real lives, loves, sorrows and fears.

Of course, and the sad part is that in all these places, these peoples' own governments show they don't care about the well-being of their people.

The fuck them was at the Iranian government, who I think that regardless of whether a military action was the right course of action, they definitely had it coming for them, with their actions.

[Gavin Chipper]

my main issue with Gavin's post is that he paints Israel's enemies as peace loving little kittens.

This is entirely in your mind and is your problem.

Back in Israel, I stopped arguing about politics with right wingers, I realised it's just like discussing a countdown numbers game with a person who knows for a fact that 3+3 = 44. Feels like it's the same talking to Gavin.

I'm willing to discuss my points. You assert with aggression and insults. Aside from who might be right or wrong in our stances, that's the biggest difference between us on here.

I totally take on board what Fiona says, but it does require the other person to [Insert another Black Eyed Peas song title].

[Tal Lessner]

I'm willing to discuss my points. You assert with aggression and insults. Aside from who might be right or wrong in our stances, that's the biggest difference between us on here.

I'm very happy to discuss different opinions. I have much less patience when my perception is that the other person ignores basic facts or is completely unreasonable. And calling Hezbollah joining the action on 8th October as some sort of relief force to protect the poor people of Gaza is unreasonable (batshit crazy actually).

Look, I'm very much against almost anything the Israeli government does, especially in Gaza after the initial few weeks of the war. You could find all over the internet reliable sources and opinions about Israel's terrible actions. But you somehow go to the left's versions of some flat-earth anti-vaxxers racial-supremacy blogs as ridiculous distorted truths sources.

You can be against Israel's actions in Iran without diminishing Iran's influence and actions over the past 2 years, or against Israel taking the battle against Hezbollah deeper into Lebanon without denying facts about who started and why.

[Gavin Chipper]

Your description does not apply to Owen Jones or Novara Media.

[Tal Lessner]

Your description does not apply to Owen Jones or Novara Media.

Didn't have a reason to check out Novara, but definitely saw some OJones videos and my description is bang on.

[Gavin Chipper]

I came here for other reasons (see below) but since that's still the last post - using the fact that I linked to an Owen Jones video once ages ago as some sort of argument for anything, and then dismissing the other video without watching it on the same basis just shows how full of shit you are. You're also the only person on this forum that brings out this sort of reaction in me because you're such an arse.

Anyway I was just thinking about Labour and who they expect to vote for them next election. Alienating the left to pander to the right who aren't voting for them anyway. Hopefully an alternative comes up.

[Tal Lessner]

I came here for other reasons (see below) but since that's still the last post - using the fact that I linked to an Owen Jones video once ages ago as some sort of argument for anything, and then dismissing the other video without watching it on the same basis just shows how full of shit you are. You're also the only person on this forum that brings out this sort of reaction in me because you're such an arse.

I dismissed the Novara video not because I don't trust them, but because I don't need to watch a "for dummies" video explaining something I already know extensively. Also, I did address the points you made in the comment linking this video. So I don't really understand why should you expect people to watch 20 minutes videos to be qualified to respond to you.

Also, I didn't mention Owen Jones, you did, I mentioned your videos in general, Owen Jones, of course, but for example the following one which I did listen to, and it's basically a guy who seems completely oblivious to the fact that it's a two sided conflict. Again I reiterate, you can find "sources" for any opinion you want on the internet nowadays. And it seems to me like the sources you constantly listen to are just absolutely unreliable.

This is quite an interesting speech at the ICJ about Israel's crimes against Palestine over the years.

Which is also a shame, because you're usually on the side that just doesn't need these partial facts and misleading loonies.

[Gavin Chipper]

I don't expect people to watch these videos to be able to respond to me. It's more - this is what I'm saying but also here's someone else articulating it quite well (possibly better than me).

You did mention Owen Jones btw.

And I'm definitely not going to listen to another one of your insane youtube clips. I know the history well enough (not the one chewed by your favourite Owen Jones & Co loonies),

[Tal Lessner]

I don't expect people to watch these videos to be able to respond to me. It's more - this is what I'm saying but also here's someone else articulating it quite well (possibly better than me).

You did mention Owen Jones btw.

And I'm definitely not going to listen to another one of your insane youtube clips. I know the history well enough (not the one chewed by your favourite Owen Jones & Co loonies),

You're right about me mentioning Owen Jones first this time. Thought you were talking about the later correspondence, didn't look back enough.
If I admit being wrong (albeit about something minor and not really relevant to the argument), we could perhaps end for now, until the next time...

[Gavin Chipper]

OK, let's have ceasefire. For now.

[Marc Meakin]

OK, let's have ceasefire. For now.

Are you talking about between you two or generally?

[Gavin Chipper]

OK, let's have ceasefire. For now.

Are you talking about between you two or generally?

Both hopefully.

[Gavin Chipper]

Anyway I was just thinking about Labour and who they expect to vote for them next election. Alienating the left to pander to the right who aren't voting for them anyway. Hopefully an alternative comes up.

Speaking of an alternative, Zarah Sultana has announced she's quitting Labour to form a new party with Jeremy Corbyn. We'll see how it goes...

[Tal Lessner]

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/11/maga ... a-war.html

Almost a week old, but still, a very comprehensive article about the main reason why the ethnic cleansing and slaughter in Gaza (and also the West Bank) continues without any clear goals or any real attempt to end it.

[Gavin Chipper]

OK cheers. Will give that a look.