Co-Event Suggestion Box

Discussion and announcements relating to unofficial Countdown competitions, held online or in real life. Observation, discussion, reflection, and other stuff ending in -ion.
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Thomas Carey
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Thomas Carey »

Adam Beach wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 1:24 am
Squeak


Good points, well made - want to reiterate that I'm absolutely not saying hosts should look for bigger venues - I'm aware that finding a suitable venue is tough and will be most of the event costs, and hosts do a great job with this. I'm just saying that a max 10% increase in people in the room, which often happens anyway because of spectators, isn't (imo) a good reason to turn away players (especially potential newbies), especially when quite often we have a few people dropping out on the day that would cover it.

You're not the first person to mention Liverpool. I didn't go this year so can't really comment. I think it's the same venue as the 2019 one which was fine, but we probably had fewer people back then. Durham, however, felt completely fine to me - I feel like the hall was quite spacious for the 27 players plus host, spectators etc we had. Maybe I'm misremembering but I feel like we had a pretty big open space in the middle of the room between the two columns of tables that could have fit more stuff if needed without feeling crowded. Brilliant venue, but not one I'd think can only handle max 30 players.

The one event I remember feeling really crowded was the first half of colon 2019, and that's because the venue double booked one of the two rooms with a kids karate lesson (with very rude parents) so we had the entire event in half the space. That wasn't fun, and I'm not suggesting we try and get twice as many people as suitable in, but we made it work in an emergency (thankfully they left at lunch and we had the full venue).
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Marc Meakin
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Marc Meakin »

I would have thought last minute entrants might be a red flag given Blackpool etc
Though I'm shooting myself in the foot a bit as I have decided to enter any event as close to last minute as possible as it seems whenever I try booking early I jinx myself with travel and health issues.
I'm saying this with a bout of flu that seemed to have bypassed my flu jab
Though I hope to make my Scrabble tournament at the weekend
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Phil Stanton
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Phil Stanton »

OK, my thoughts on the question of event capping.
First off, I think it's only been a few events recently where I've seen a cap announced, and virtually every time it's been due to venue capacity.
I myself had a cap for London this year and will do for next year, for the same reason, although I've not announced what it is, and it's a high enough cap that I doubt it will ever be an issue (for room size at least ... whether the venue has enough tables for us is another matter, but also a consideration.)
But as has been said, the venue search is by far the biggest issue for an event host, and once you've found a decent one, you're likely to want to stick with it, even if it's likely to cap your numbers at a lower level than you'd like.
I spent ages trying to find an affordable and suitable London venue, and even once you've done that you're still hedging your bets on how many people will sign up.

As for a room being cramped, I personally always find this uncomfortable, so of course it's desirable to try and avoid that.

For CO:LON 2024, being my first event, I thought it would indeed be helpful to get people signing up as early as possible, and threw money at that problem by offering an early sign-up discount. 56% of attendees took advantage of that, signing up at least 8 weeks before the event.
I don't know how that stacks up with other event organisers' experiences, but frankly it didn't help much, other than give a first-time host comfort that he was at least going to break even on his venue + FOCAL levy costs. I still had to guess how much I'd have in the budget for things like prizes, etc.
I'm not doing that again ... the benefit didn't outweigh the costs, and there were still last-minute entrants.

I personally don't understand why people don't sign up early, particularly because that should get them cheaper travel and accommodation costs if they're not local.
Marc Meakin wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 10:29 am I would have thought last minute entrants might be a red flag given Blackpool etc
Though I'm shooting myself in the foot a bit as I have decided to enter any event as close to last minute as possible as it seems whenever I try booking early I jinx myself with travel and health issues.
The Blackpool incident was down to a walk-in on the day; if that person had actually signed up, that would have been the red flag.
For my event, if someone asks if they can decide on the day and just turn and pay, or if they want to sign up but only pay in cash on the day, my answer is always no (and that was the case prior to Blackpool). It's a pain for an organiser otherwise, and I always make it very clear that if you sign up and pay in advance and then have to pull out, you'll get a refund, as long as you tell me in advance. (The exception to this is if you no-show the event with no explanation and then ignore all subsequent attempts at communication.)

I think it would be no bad thing if that were FOCAL policy, and advertised along with the event details, just to make it clear to people that if health or other reasons force them to pull out, their entry fee at least won't have been wasted. (Although if they've also booked travel and accommodation, the entry fee is the least of their worries.) This would also add some credibility.


I think the simplest way to address the concerns about event caps is just to not announce them in advance.
If your venue forces you to have a cap for whatever reason, fine ... if you happen to reach it, just announce that the event is full at that point.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Marc Meakin »

Phil Stanton wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2024 5:57 pm OK, my thoughts on the question of event capping.
First off, I think it's only been a few events recently where I've seen a cap announced, and virtually every time it's been due to venue capacity.
I myself had a cap for London this year and will do for next year, for the same reason, although I've not announced what it is, and it's a high enough cap that I doubt it will ever be an issue (for room size at least ... whether the venue has enough tables for us is another matter, but also a consideration.)
But as has been said, the venue search is by far the biggest issue for an event host, and once you've found a decent one, you're likely to want to stick with it, even if it's likely to cap your numbers at a lower level than you'd like.
I spent ages trying to find an affordable and suitable London venue, and even once you've done that you're still hedging your bets on how many people will sign up.

As for a room being cramped, I personally always find this uncomfortable, so of course it's desirable to try and avoid that.

For CO:LON 2024, being my first event, I thought it would indeed be helpful to get people signing up as early as possible, and threw money at that problem by offering an early sign-up discount. 56% of attendees took advantage of that, signing up at least 8 weeks before the event.
I don't know how that stacks up with other event organisers' experiences, but frankly it didn't help much, other than give a first-time host comfort that he was at least going to break even on his venue + FOCAL levy costs. I still had to guess how much I'd have in the budget for things like prizes, etc.
I'm not doing that again ... the benefit didn't outweigh the costs, and there were still last-minute entrants.

I personally don't understand why people don't sign up early, particularly because that should get them cheaper travel and accommodation costs if they're not local.
Marc Meakin wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 10:29 am I would have thought last minute entrants might be a red flag given Blackpool etc
Though I'm shooting myself in the foot a bit as I have decided to enter any event as close to last minute as possible as it seems whenever I try booking early I jinx myself with travel and health issues.
The Blackpool incident was down to a walk-in on the day; if that person had actually signed up, that would have been the red flag.
For my event, if someone asks if they can decide on the day and just turn and pay, or if they want to sign up but only pay in cash on the day, my answer is always no (and that was the case prior to Blackpool). It's a pain for an organiser otherwise, and I always make it very clear that if you sign up and pay in advance and then have to pull out, you'll get a refund, as long as you tell me in advance. (The exception to this is if you no-show the event with no explanation and then ignore all subsequent attempts at communication.)

I think it would be no bad thing if that were FOCAL policy, and advertised along with the event details, just to make it clear to people that if health or other reasons force them to pull out, their entry fee at least won't have been wasted. (Although if they've also booked travel and accommodation, the entry fee is the least of their worries.) This would also add some credibility.


I think the simplest way to address the concerns about event caps is just to not announce them in advance.
If your venue forces you to have a cap for whatever reason, fine ... if you happen to reach it, just announce that the event is full at that point.
At Scrabble vents the cut off for entrants is a week before the tournament though late comers could still enter after that but walk ins wouldn't work az eve. Numbers are important.
There's still plenty of people playing cas on the day.
I think it's older players.
Scrabble average age is probably over 50 I'm guessing the average FOCAL player is probably 10 or 20 years less
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JackHurst
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

I wonder how things would work out with the following scoring system for FOCAL.
Not saying it's any good, but it just popped into my head and thought it might be interesting to share.

Scores per event remain calculated as they are. Then instead of taking the 8 best scores and adding them up for an EOY score, all of your scores for the year count. However, they are ranked and weighted among your own results as follows:
  • Your best score × 10
  • Your second-best score × 5
  • Your third-best score × 4
  • Your fourth-best score × 3
  • Your fifth-best score × 2
  • All subsequent scores × 1
This means every time you turn up to an event, you are guaranteed to improve your score for the year. Winning an event could boost your score significantly, but if you attend lots of events and perform consistently, you eventually hit diminishing returns.

Here’s how it might look with two hypothetical players:

---

Example: Rob and Bob
  • Rob: Attends 6 events, scoring between 900 and 975 consistently.
    • Scores: 975, 970, 960, 950, 940, 930
  • Bob: Attends 13 events, with scores ranging from 550 to 900.
    • Scores: 900, 850, 820, 800, 780, 770, 760, 750, 740, 720, 700, 680, 550
---

Calculations:

Rob's Weighted Scores:
  • Best score (975) × 10 = 9,750
  • Second-best (970) × 5 = 4,850
  • Third-best (960) × 4 = 3,840
  • Fourth-best (950) × 3 = 2,850
  • Fifth-best (940) × 2 = 1,880
  • Sixth score (930) × 1 = 930
Rob's Total: 24,100

---

Bob's Weighted Scores:
  • Best score (900) × 10 = 9,000
  • Second-best (850) × 5 = 4,250
  • Third-best (820) × 4 = 3,280
  • Fourth-best (800) × 3 = 2,400
  • Fifth-best (780) × 2 = 1,560
  • Remaining scores (770, 760, 750, 740, 720, 700, 680, 550) × 1 = 5,670
Bob's Total: 26,160

---

Observations
  • Rob scores highly in fewer events and earns a very competitive total. His consistency at the top level ensures most of his scores are weighted heavily.
  • Bob, on the other hand, benefits from sheer participation. Although his individual scores are lower, attending more events adds up, allowing him to edge out Rob.
This system rewards both consistent high performance and commitment to attending events, creating a balance where different strategies can be viable.

What do you think? Could this work, or would it overemphasize attendance over skill?
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

Here's is what ChatGPT says the rankings would look like if that scoring system was applied to 2024

Code: Select all

New Ranking | Old Ranking | Change | Name                | Events Played | Weighted Score
------------|-------------|--------|---------------------|---------------|----------------
1           | 1           | 0     | Jack Hurst          | 11             | 28516           
2           | 2           | 0     | Thomas Carey        | 12             | 27293           
3           | 4           | +1    | George Armstrong    | 12             | 25913           
4           | 6           | +2    | Jonathan de Souza   | 10             | 25269           
5           | 9           | +4    | Adam Latchford      | 13             | 25261           
6           | 3           | -3    | Tom Cappleman       | 9              | 25068           
7           | 12          | +5    | Rob Foster          | 6              | 24183           
8           | 5           | -3    | Dylan Taylor        | 8              | 24070           
9           | 7           | -2    | Dan Byrom           | 10             | 23874           
10          | 8           | -2    | Tom Stevenson       | 8              | 23696           
11          | 15          | +4    | Callum Todd         | 6              | 23322           
12          | 10          | -2    | James Robinson      | 9              | 23017           
13          | 16          | +3    | MSR                 | 16             | 22693           
14          | 11          | -3    | Matthew Brockwell   | 8              | 22514           
15          | 20          | +5    | Zohaib Rehan        | 5              | 22284           
16          | 13          | -3    | Eeshan Malhotra     | 9              | 21872           
17          | 25          | +8    | Jack Worsley        | 4              | 21028           
18          | 14          | -4    | Bradley Horrocks    | 8              | 20890           
19          | 19          | 0     | Adrian Fletcher     | 11             | 20121           
20          | 18          | -2    | Eddy Byrne          | 8              | 19867           
21          | 17          | -4    | Tim Hebbes          | 10             | 19802           
22          | 24          | +2    | Richard Priest      | 7              | 18180           
23          | 23          | 0     | Coral Heath         | 12             | 18124           
24          | 22          | -2    | Phil Stanton        | 12             | 17659           
25          | 21          | -4    | Fiona Titcombe      | 13             | 17137           
Thomas Cappleman
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Thomas Cappleman »

Ignore: ChatGPT was right

The top 12 for this year with that system:
Position Name FOCAL Points Events played
1 Jack Hurst 27602 11
2 Thomas Carey 26453 12
3 George Armstrong 25109 12
4 Adam Latchford 24522 13
5 Jonathan de Souza 24519 10
6 Tom Cappleman 24247 9
7 Rob Foster 23239 6
8 Dylan Taylor 23177 8
9 Dan Byrom 23131 10
10 Tom Stevenson 22946 8
11 Callum Todd 22465 6
12 James Robinson 22212 9

One effect was that Braintree had no effect at all on the top 6 (the spreadsheet automatically reports the last change). But it does finally get Rob into the top 8
Last edited by Thomas Cappleman on Fri Nov 29, 2024 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Thomas Cappleman »

It seems to benefit those who are a few events above the cut off at the moment (as everything counts) and those who played very well but at too few events, but hurts anyone who was at or just over the cut off (see me, Dylan and Tom S)
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

I trust your rankings more than ChatGPT, thanks for posting them!
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Thomas Cappleman »

Actually, ChatGPT was right - I'd messed up the 5th event multiplier.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Thomas Cappleman »

I think it does have the problem that the cut off was meant to solve, of people feeling forced to go to more and more events if they want to make the top 8. Rob makes the top 8 this year when that incentive wasn't there, but if a couple of people find an extra event they can make then he's back out again.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I don't think we want to make things too complex. I think a set number of events with equal weighting makes sense. And set number rather than proportion. It's just a question of how many that should be. And I would say 6. 6 plus the finals is 7 weekends potentially all over the country and that's no small number.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Fiona T »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 12:52 pm I don't think we want to make things too complex. I think a set number of events with equal weighting makes sense. And set number rather than proportion. It's just a question of how many that should be. And I would say 6. 6 plus the finals is 7 weekends potentially all over the country and that's no small number.
Or 2 'triple' weekends (plus finals)...
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Fiona T wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 1:08 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 12:52 pm I don't think we want to make things too complex. I think a set number of events with equal weighting makes sense. And set number rather than proportion. It's just a question of how many that should be. And I would say 6. 6 plus the finals is 7 weekends potentially all over the country and that's no small number.
Or 2 'triple' weekends (plus finals)...
Well there is that but if they're to remain as is I still think 6 makes sense as not everyone will make the triples.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 12:52 pm I don't think we want to make things too complex. I think a set number of events with equal weighting makes sense. And set number rather than proportion. It's just a question of how many that should be. And I would say 6. 6 plus the finals is 7 weekends potentially all over the country and that's no small number.
Yeah I 100% agree. Current system is best and 6 is my personal ideal number.

Interesting to see the results of an alternate suggestion nonetheless
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Yeah, it's always good to evaluate the options.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by George Armstrong »

Good morning folks,

For those not at Milton Keynes, you might not be aware of the announcement, so here I am to explain. As you'll know, Darren decided to step down as Chair, and you voted for who you'd like to replace him. Thank you to all the organisers who took part in the vote, but now comes all the hard work.

Already I've made some strides updating the website, including adding all confirmed events until Sheffield in May and updating the Hall Of Fame, and Beachy has composed an alternative site which I look forward to seeing. The calendar for next is coming along nicely, but we have a couple of gaps in which we could host some new tournaments.

The main reason I'm posting however is to invite you all to our next Committee meeting, which will take place via video chat on Sunday 15th December at 3pm. The Committee currently consists of myself, Chris Marshall (Treasurer), Adam Beach (Social Media), MSR (Safeguarding), Darren Godfrey and Rachel Perkins. This upcoming meeting will be a chance to put across any questions you have for us, plus register any interest in either joining the Committee or organising in 2025. 2024 was a tough year for us all in this community at times, so now seems like a good time to discuss forward steps. If you'd like to come along, please register you interest with me (either here or on Messenger/WhatsApp) and I'll send the link to you on the day.

Thanks for reading the above, and I look forward to seeing some of you next weekend.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Adam S Latchford »

George Armstrong wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 11:37 am Good morning folks,

For those not at Milton Keynes, you might not be aware of the announcement, so here I am to explain. As you'll know, Darren decided to step down as Chair, and you voted for who you'd like to replace him. Thank you to all the organisers who took part in the vote, but now comes all the hard work.

Already I've made some strides updating the website, including adding all confirmed events until Sheffield in May and updating the Hall Of Fame, and Beachy has composed an alternative site which I look forward to seeing. The calendar for next is coming along nicely, but we have a couple of gaps in which we could host some new tournaments.

The main reason I'm posting however is to invite you all to our next Committee meeting, which will take place via video chat on Sunday 15th December at 3pm. The Committee currently consists of myself, Chris Marshall (Treasurer), Adam Beach (Social Media), MSR (Safeguarding), Darren Godfrey and Rachel Perkins. This upcoming meeting will be a chance to put across any questions you have for us, plus register any interest in either joining the Committee or organising in 2025. 2024 was a tough year for us all in this community at times, so now seems like a good time to discuss forward steps. If you'd like to come along, please register you interest with me (either here or on Messenger/WhatsApp) and I'll send the link to you on the day.

Thanks for reading the above, and I look forward to seeing some of you next weekend.
Is there gonna be notes on what happened at this meeting? would be curious to know ( you scheduled it on manchester derby day you rotter )
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by George Armstrong »

Scheduled it for 3pm. Finished by 4 so didn't clash <3

A brief rundown:
  • Overview of current FOCAL budget.
  • Discussion on safeguarding, including physical and mental First Aid training.
  • Adam had designed a new concept website. Will look to take pages from that and incorporate them. Also looking to bring back blog posts for 2025 - anyone interested in writing some please get in touch.
  • Events to be announced in Monasteraden (26/04), *NEW* Tunbridge Wells (24/05) and *NEW* Hemel Hempstead (14/06). Beyond that the rest of the calendar seems fairly sewn up. There are a couple of gaps, but we have plenty of people interested in filling them.
Next video call will likely come after Lincoln unless something major crops up before then.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

During a CO-event final, it's very helpful (particularly if it's Lincoln/Edinburgh style with no screen) to have the scores announced after every round. And that means with the players' names included. It doesn't matter that there's a designated player 1 and 2 and that's the order you're reading them in. It takes an extra 2 seconds to say their names.

And also for those at the back of the room or their view obscured, it's nice to have the letters read out clearly. None of this "buh kuh duh" nonsense.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 1:42 pm None of this "buh kuh duh" nonsense.
Yeah several people said this, I'm fairly sure it's been noted and won't happen again.

For events where the event host is happy to let volunteers officiate/present the final, may I suggest to anybody who is wanting to present/officiate a final, but doesn't know how, please just reach out to the host and politely ask! It would be great to see more people getting access to that privilege.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

The bit where we have to stand still in silence and listen to a 15 minute exhaustive checkbox list of upcoming events is always excrutiatingly boring and kills a lot of momentum and excitement in the room.

I understand that hosts need to promote events, and this is seen as a good opportunity to do so, but I genuinely think it needs jazzing up a bit to keep it engaging and exciting.

- Do we need to list EVERY POSSIBLE KNOWN EVENT FOR THE YEAR? No, just let us know about the next 4 upcoming events please, and maybe one or two that are Geographically close
- Does every host need to do an individual speech for their event? By the time the 3rd host is talking about their event, 80% of the room has switched off. It's falling on deaf ears. Just have a chief Hype master whizzing through it. Somebody who is exciting to listen to please.
- Most of the information is duplicated on the focal website, yet that doesn't ever seem to get a mention. Mention the website more!
- Physical and visual media is a thing! Put some posters out (or write on a whiteboard) about upcoming events, and who to speak to about each.
- Business cards and flyers are a thing! How expensive would it be to print out 100 business cards /flyers with a generic link that goes to the focal website. It can just be a generic non event/time specific flyer that can be used for many years. 90% of event attendees are regulars so wont need this, but it's nice to hand out to the newbies. People can even take multiple home and give to friends!
- QR codes with direct sign up links. Why not print these out and put them on each table.


You have a captive audience at events, so it's a great opportunity to convert. Just remove as much friction as possible!
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Phil Stanton »

JackHurst wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:07 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 1:42 pm None of this "buh kuh duh" nonsense.
For events where the event host is happy to let volunteers officiate/present the final, may I suggest to anybody who is wanting to present/officiate a final, but doesn't know how, please just reach out to the host and politely ask! It would be great to see more people getting access to that privilege.
^ This.
Let's not always have the same people hosting the finals, it's a great way to introduce new faces to the concept of getting more involved with future events.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Phil Stanton »

JackHurst wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:18 pm The bit where we have to stand still in silence and listen to a 15 minute exhaustive checkbox list of upcoming events is always excrutiatingly boring and kills a lot of momentum and excitement in the room.

I understand that hosts need to promote events, and this is seen as a good opportunity to do so, but I genuinely think it needs jazzing up a bit to keep it engaging and exciting.

- Do we need to list EVERY POSSIBLE KNOWN EVENT FOR THE YEAR? No, just let us know about the next 4 upcoming events please, and maybe one or two that are Geographically close
- Does every host need to do an individual speech for their event? By the time the 3rd host is talking about their event, 80% of the room has switched off. It's falling on deaf ears. Just have a chief Hype master whizzing through it. Somebody who is exciting to listen to please.
- Most of the information is duplicated on the focal website, yet that doesn't ever seem to get a mention. Mention the website more!
- Physical and visual media is a thing! Put some posters out (or write on a whiteboard) about upcoming events, and who to speak to about each.
- Business cards and flyers are a thing! How expensive would it be to print out 100 business cards /flyers with a generic link that goes to the focal website. It can just be a generic non event/time specific flyer that can be used for many years. 90% of event attendees are regulars so wont need this, but it's nice to hand out to the newbies. People can even take multiple home and give to friends!
- QR codes with direct sign up links. Why not print these out and put them on each table.


You have a captive audience at events, so it's a great opportunity to convert. Just remove as much friction as possible!
- This promotion bit is necessary, and useful for event hosts to drive traction and encourage sign-ups. When you get a lot of people leaving it till the last couple of months or less is a real issue for event hosts who are struggling to budget for and order prizes, trophies, etc. (Having said that, I get more traction by going up to people and hassling them directly!)
- Agreed it should be snappier ... the ONLY events we should be mentioning here are definite, confirmed ones. Potential or pencilled in ones don't need a mention, nor do any more than 6 months away.
- I do my own flyers, but yes, physical media can help. Any media which the event host produces (e.g. Lincoln Puzzle Mag) can (and did in Lincoln's case) easily mention the website.
- Generic links/QR codes can even point to a specific event ... I mentioned to Beachy the other day that website links can be generic per event. For example, London's URL was focalcountdown.com/london-2024 last year, and is focalcountdown.com/london-2025 this year, but it would be much simpler if it was always just focalcountdown.com/london, and we just update the dates and any other details year to year.
- Direct sign-up links/QR codes could be good, but at the moment would probably just need to be links to the relevant event page on the FOCAL website, as opposed to a PayPal link with an amount to someone whose name, in some cases, doesn't even match their PayPal name. (In an ideal world, all sign-ups would be done via the FOCAL website directly, with a form and centralised payment processing, which would give more comfort/security to people, especially newbies, but that all costs money.)
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Graeme Cole »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 1:42 pm During a CO-event final, it's very helpful (particularly if it's Lincoln/Edinburgh style with no screen) to have the scores announced after every round. And that means with the players' names included. It doesn't matter that there's a designated player 1 and 2 and that's the order you're reading them in. It takes an extra 2 seconds to say their names.
Yes to this. "7 to Bob, 15 to Fred". Nobody remembers who player 1 is.

My theory about the recurring "what's the score" problem, which is only my pet theory so it may be disprovable, is that finals often have... too many hosts? We have the actual "host", who runs the game and announces everything, but that isn't always the person with the scoresheet, and the person checking words is very often a different person again. So the host, who has the job of announcing the state of play to the spectators, doesn't always have the score in front of them. There's a lot of looking over at someone else who might not be sure whether it's their turn to speak, or whether they should be speaking up for the crowd or just talking to the host.

To borrow an example from outside the Countdown world... in the Zoom-based quiz world of OQL, each match has a "reader", who reads out the questions, and a "scorer" who enters the result of each question on a webpage. Due to technical changes which I won't bore anyone with here, these are nowadays always the same person, but until recently they could be different people. However, when I was only scoring and not also reading, I found it harder, not easier, than doing both jobs at once. If you're the scorer but you missed who gave the correct answer, you had to interrupt the reader to check. As the reader, at the end of the round you had to "hand over" to the scorer to give the scores rather than just reading them yourself. This just added delay and faff.

If more than a couple of seconds pass with nothing game-related happening (clock not running, players not speaking, host not speaking), that's when the spectators start "quietly" murmuring to each other, and that makes it difficult for the host to make themselves heard when they start speaking again. How could we minimise that? Is there anything stopping one person from doing all game-running tasks? Or do we need at least a host and a word-checking person?
Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 1:42 pm None of this "buh kuh duh" nonsense.
In the pub afterwards, Eddy delighted in claiming responsibility for persuading Sam to do this for the first round. To what end, I am at a loss to speculate.
JackHurst wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:07 pm For events where the event host is happy to let volunteers officiate/present the final, may I suggest to anybody who is wanting to present/officiate a final, but doesn't know how, please just reach out to the host and politely ask! It would be great to see more people getting access to that privilege.
I'd host a final.
JackHurst wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:18 pm The bit where we have to stand still in silence and listen to a 15 minute exhaustive checkbox list of upcoming events is always excrutiatingly boring and kills a lot of momentum and excitement in the room.
One positive thing I will say for this, at least for how it was done at COLIN, was that it was between rounds 2 and 3, rather than cluttering up an already crowded final/prizegiving stage.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by George Armstrong »

JackHurst wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:18 pm The bit where we have to stand still in silence and listen to a 15 minute exhaustive checkbox list of upcoming events is always excrutiatingly boring and kills a lot of momentum and excitement in the room.

I understand that hosts need to promote events, and this is seen as a good opportunity to do so, but I genuinely think it needs jazzing up a bit to keep it engaging and exciting.

- Do we need to list EVERY POSSIBLE KNOWN EVENT FOR THE YEAR? No, just let us know about the next 4 upcoming events please, and maybe one or two that are Geographically close
- Does every host need to do an individual speech for their event? By the time the 3rd host is talking about their event, 80% of the room has switched off. It's falling on deaf ears. Just have a chief Hype master whizzing through it. Somebody who is exciting to listen to please.
FWIW I made a little promo post a couple of weeks before Lincoln on FB and on Apterous (https://www.facebook.com/focalcountdown ... tcvoQQ8dgl ), which shortly and sweetly detailed the events up to the end of April, with a brief nod to the ones that followed. At Lincoln, I wanted to extend that to May in the promos to cover the next four months. I tried to also let people promote their own tourneys if possible - they know their tourney best and gives particularly the new people a face to put to it. After that, I had to address the issue of Hemel Hempstead being advertised when it wasn't confirmed (and is now pencilled in provisionally for November), then other people iirc (and if it was me I apologise for boring you senseless) ran away with it. I'd already mentioned to a few at the weekend that I plan on adding the next event to the website after I take the previous one off, but there's nothing to stop people announcing their own tourneys when they like. In an ideal world they'd all be announced in order, but as you can see from the events forum page here that isn't always the case, whether that be for some events getting in very early, or others struggling to find a suitable venue and getting in late.

Agree that things like QR codes can work, but aren't always the best option for the technophobic amongst us - I didn't even clock until last year that I can access QR code links simply from my phone's camera and not need an extra app! Things like puzzle mags can work, but require extra effort from the organisers. I printed a similar, albeit smaller puzzle/ promotional mag for York back in the day, to very little reward. Something that instead kept people occupied for about 5 minutes. Like with everything in COLIN weekend, go big or go home eh...

To address the points of social media promotion and the announcing of sign ups from here (viewtopic.php?t=16718&start=60), whilst I agree that letting people know who's going does drum up interest, it's not the only thing you can post to FB. If you followed the COLIN XX FB page you'll have seen Ben posting plenty of pics from years gone by, with regular posts about this year's tourneys too. Things one can post to FB include meal/social plans, prizes, trophies, any promotional gifts like pads and pens, any media that attendees can contribute to like a puzzle mag, etcetc. Some of the upcoming tourneys are admittedly struggling for numbers, but at repeated request from myself, they aren't making these sorts of efforts to self-promote. I've been posting some themed Supernumdrums on the Sheffield page, and have more posts planned for over the next few months to hopefully keep catching people's eyes.

And yes, the nursery style alphabet pronunciations can do one! ;)
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Callum Todd »

Some good suggestions here. I cba snip-quoting points above but thanks to everyone who's made some good suggestions.

Absolutely the several minute long rambling list of upcoming events becomes actively counterproductive for me. I find it incredibly tedious. Personally I'd be happy with a simple "lots of events upcoming include our next three in a, b, and c, and a nearby one later in the year in x. Full details on the FOCAL website" but I understand why event hosts want a bit more than that to promote their event. So I think by keeping it to 100% confirmed events with sign-ups open only, limiting it to the next few months of events and local events only, and an absolute maximum of 40 seconds per event of waffle time, this segment should be made less torturous and more engaging.

On the hosting of finals: agreed that more people should be given a go and that multiple hosts for the final may make things worse rather than better. It seems mad that (near enough) everyone at a lincoln style event has been capable of keeping score of a game they are hosting a few times already that day, but somehow on the final they can't do that and communicate it to the audience.

Now it's going to be difficult to make some of these points without some people reading it and thinking it might be motivated by them. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If anyone reads this and thinks it's about you, feel free to ask me publicly or privately and I'll happily talk to you about it. But still on finals hosting and audience etiquette:

- For the duration of a final, the hosts are the single least important people in the room. Finals should either be about the two finalists, and celebrating their skill, or the audience, and putting on a showpiece for them. There have been finals recently where hosts seem to have been taking over the show and have become the centre of attention during a final. No more of that please.
- While audiences breaking into prolonged chatter after a round during a final is inappropriate, primarily for timekeeping purposes if not for consideration of the players' concentration, audiences asking valid questions such as "what is the score?", "what was that round?" etc, when that information has not been clearly displayed for them, is reasonable. They shouldn't be shouted down by the hosts. As above, the audience are more important than the hosts for the duration of the final.
- Similarly, while it may be necessary to get some quiet in the room to progress the final or at other times during the day, aggressive shushing and certainly angry screams of "SHUT UP!!!" are just fucking rude. It's not hard to say in a loud but calm voice "can we have some quiet please?" or similar.
- Sometimes it's necessary to tidy most of the seating away before the final, meaning seating (and especially seating with a good view of the final) is limited. Please have consideration first for those who may be less able/comfortable to stand, and then for those with impaired hearing/vision (which is also extremely important at Bristol-style events). Too often the limited seating at finals, and the front row of Bristol-style events, is taken up by able-bodied 20-somethings.

Some suggestions for how some of these improvements may be achieved:

- Have a display with the score of the final and, if possible, the selections/declarations. For Bristol style events this should be extremely simple. For Lincoln style, most events have a display monitor anyway for atropine stuff, and as there's no need for atropine stuff during the final, a simple notepad with the host or someone else operating works. People have used spreadsheets that give a fancy display before too and I'm sure a template could be whipped up with ease if this is something hosts want.
- For getting quiet in the room, rather than relying on COLIN's resident human foghorn, which while we all love him is still quite a disconcerting sound when unexpected, or resorting to rudeness as referenced above, it shouldn't be too difficult for hosts to have a speaker for their laptop that can be heard above the din. A simple loud but not jarring siren noise should suffice to play through a speaker. Having speakers on the host's laptop could also help in some other instances where sound is required and the volume is too low. I would expect bringing a small plug-in speaker for a laptop isn't too much of an ask for most hosts but if it is then maybe there could be a communal FOCAL one? It would be an incredibly cheap piece of equipment and shouldn't be as difficult to transport or as requiring of PAT testing etc as a full on sound system with mic.
- Where speakers aren't available or appropriate, and for seating-related issues, just be polite to people. That's the easiest suggestion to implement :)

A few other etiquette reminders while I'm already at risk of looking like a moaning miser:
- If spectating other players, please don't distract them. Even in between rounds. This includes standing in their eyeline, especially on a conundrum. You can normally read the conundrum better if stood behind them anyway :P
- If you're hosting a Lincoln style game, unless you're asked or are offering the maximum when players haven't got it and want to know, nobody gives a shit what word you got or what your numbers solution was. You're not playing.
- Any cars driven to/from co:events by attendees are the private property of their owners. They are not communal cars and access to them is granted only at the explicit discretion of the driver. If you require motorised transportation from A to B, you're in luck! Such excellent services as buses and taxis have been invented and are available in most places. You are not entitled to free favours from anyone.
- We're all touching the same letters cards all day so please wash your hands. As much as I regret my immaturity in printing "bloody big twat" on the back of those numbers cards I made, I am more regretful that more than one deck of them are now quite literally "bloody" as they are covered in actual bloodstains, and fear there are other, less visible, pathogens soaking into those cards at these events.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Adam Beach »

Here is my take on some of the points raised post-Lincoln weekend. Sorry to flood the thread with separate lengthy responses.

First section: the reading out of letters.
Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 1:42 pm None of this "buh kuh duh" nonsense.
Agreed. This needs to bloody stop. I don't know why it's become a thing — ESPECIALLY IN A FINAL MATCH, FFS. For a start, it's distracting for the two players and everyone playing along — none of whom, to the best of my knowledge, are nursery pupils. Furthermore, the pronunciation of some of the consonants is ambiguous as it is — M and N in particular, so babyfying them only adds to the frustration. I snapped at the board assistant for doing this in the first round of the grand final at Milton Keynes (FWIW, that's not my typical conduct; I was already very overwhelmed). The same individual repeated this at the Lincoln Predrinks on Friday night, apparently after being spurred on to do so in order to get a reaction out of me, but I stayed silent this time. Don't be afraid to call it out — I happily would, but I'm normally a pussy who doesn't like conflict or people thinking he's a pretentious prick.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

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Section 2: grand finals
JackHurst wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:07 pm For events where the event host is happy to let volunteers officiate/present the final, may I suggest to anybody who is wanting to present/officiate a final, but doesn't know how, please just reach out to the host and politely ask! It would be great to see more people getting access to that privilege.
YES. PLEASE. It's always the same handful of characters presiding over the grand finals: in recent times, myself, MSR, Sam, George, and Robbo. This isn't a major issue, but it's great to let others have some involvement. I'm holding my hands up here: I think for some it could be a case of loving having their voice heard and/or being in control, but that's just my opinion. At "Lincoln"-style events, where my board is used to display the selections, some people have had the assumption that it's me who decides the hosts. This is absolutely not the case. It might be my board, but that's irrelevant. It should always be the choice of the event host — if they're not fussed, the usual hosts should ask people around the room if they'd be interested. I did this on Saturday, but the few I asked sadly weren't up for it. I'd love to see other people involved, particularly behind the board, and I'd be more than happy to give them a briefing before the match starts if need be. For me, the second most important purpose of having the board in the final, other than it allowing everyone in the venue to see the selections, is that it opens up another role in the match, giving a further member of the crowd something to do other than sit or stand in the background for 15 minutes, bored. This role has been misconstrued recently, but I'm going to be clearing this up at future events.

:!: What needs to be clarified is the roles of people involved in the presenting side of a "Lincoln"-style final. There are up to four roles: the host, the board assistant, and the one or two Dictionary Corner members.

1) The host. Their role is to oversee the general proceedings and maintain the flow of the game. It should be them, and them ONLY, who informs everyone who the two players are, which player is selecting, asks for players' declarations, and informs both the players and everyone in the room of the scores, preferably after each round. Very few hosts in recent times have been keeping scores as the game goes on, and have relied on the person filling in my recap sheet for this, which shouldn't be the case.
2) The board assistant. This person has the equivalent role of Cathy Hytner in the early days of the show: they put up the letters and numbers on the board (when it's present), and that's it. They aren't the main host, therefore have no authority to ask the players for declarations, etc. Once the cards are up, they shut up.
3) Dictionary Corner members. They read out the maxes on offer in each letters round, as well as some interesting words that may be available. In numbers rounds, they can also provide a solution from a solver, but only if it's been missed by the two players and everyone else in the room; if the players miss it, it's thrown over to the spectators. There's optionally a DC guest, who offers a brief anecdote.

I'm going to push for new faces in the final at future events, providing the organiser isn't bothered about who does it. As long as you read out the letters like an adult, you'll be grand. More volunteers, please. :D
Graeme Cole wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 7:12 pm I'd host a final.
I'd like to see this, Graeme. After observing you (in a non-creepy way) on Table 1 at the Hangover yesterday, I found the game you hosted very enjoyable.
Last edited by Adam Beach on Tue Jan 28, 2025 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Adam Beach »

Section 3 (final section): upcoming events
JackHurst wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:18 pm - Do we need to list EVERY POSSIBLE KNOWN EVENT FOR THE YEAR? No, just let us know about the next 4 upcoming events please, and maybe one or two that are Geographically close
- Does every host need to do an individual speech for their event? By the time the 3rd host is talking about their event, 80% of the room has switched off. It's falling on deaf ears. Just have a chief Hype master whizzing through it. Somebody who is exciting to listen to please.
- Most of the information is duplicated on the focal website, yet that doesn't ever seem to get a mention. Mention the website more!
- Physical and visual media is a thing! Put some posters out (or write on a whiteboard) about upcoming events, and who to speak to about each.
- Business cards and flyers are a thing! How expensive would it be to print out 100 business cards /flyers with a generic link that goes to the focal website. It can just be a generic non event/time specific flyer that can be used for many years. 90% of event attendees are regulars so wont need this, but it's nice to hand out to the newbies. People can even take multiple home and give to friends!
- QR codes with direct sign up links. Why not print these out and put them on each table.

You have a captive audience at events, so it's a great opportunity to convert. Just remove as much friction as possible!
We definitely don't need hosts of upcoming events rambling on about their tournament, especially when roughly half the room won't have any intention of going. This can be resolved by a single person — whether it be the event host, George (the FOCAL chair — if he's present), or otherwise — just signposting everyone in attendance to the website or other necessary material. Done. All of the information regarding each event should be outlined on there. The business cards and/or flyers idea is good, so that will be something I'll consider adding to my to-do list. It wouldn't cost an arm and a leg. Likewise, the QR codes would be brilliant to have on each table, or even just at the front of the room.

In relation to all of of this, the following point Phil made is more than applicable:
Phil Stanton wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:40 pm ONLY events we should be mentioning here are definite, confirmed ones. Potential or pencilled in ones don't need a mention, nor do any more than 6 months away
It's utterly pointless to promote an event that hasn't yet been finalised and confirmed.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Ben Wilson »

Lots of good feedback above- the need for speakers for the laptop was made abundantly clear this weekend and will be addressed. Anything that boosts my compromised voice on the off-chance that Robbo isn't available is always good.

Promoting upcoming events: I'll never be convinced that this is a bad thing, but with the number of events each year increasing, it's hard to find an acceptable middle ground without having a gong handy for when someone's gone on too long. The positioning of the promoting at COLIN (after lunch, before round 2) is to ensure that it doesn't interrupt the flow of the day too much, given that lunch has already disrupted it anyway. Will have a think about this one.

Final hosts: All three over the weekend volunteered (in fact George called dibs on the Sunday the day before). Would I like to see other hosts? Sure, why not? The problem is disappointing people when I say 'I already have a host' (this has happened before) and people do have to volunteer, or at least volunteer before someone else gets in ahead of them. As for keeping score in the final, I'll try to find some way of displaying it on the screen (though this will necessitate an additional hand in the final to operate the laptop).

Calling out letters primary school style: I'm having badges made for next year that have simply 'NO' written on them in order to discourage this.

Spectating other players: agree this can be distracting, I don't suppose I help much when filming crucials either. In future will make that an opt-in rather than an opt-out (I know of at least one former winner who asked me to remove their name from videos I've uploaded to YouTube).
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Phil Stanton »

Agreed that having the promotion of upcoming events after the lunch break is a better place to do it.
Let's see if I remember that for London :P

For Bristol-style events, displaying the scores during the finals is already built into Fiona's RoboRiley software, as long as the host remembers to tick a box before starting the final, so that's easy.
Using the display monitor during Lincoln-style events is a great idea.

Re speaker/amplification, I thought I heard someone say once that FOCAL has a PA?
It's also possible to make your computer into a rudimentary PA system if you have a speaker and microphone connected to it (e.g. connect a Bluetooth headset to the computer, and route its mic output out through a speaker attached to the computer. Many portable Bluetooth speakers also have a socket to take a cable connection from the computer, and making the mic sound come out of it is just a simple settings tweak.)

Ben Wilson wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 4:46 pm Final hosts: All three over the weekend volunteered (in fact George called dibs on the Sunday the day before). Would I like to see other hosts? Sure, why not? The problem is disappointing people when I say 'I already have a host' (this has happened before) and people do have to volunteer, or at least volunteer before someone else gets in ahead of them. As for keeping score in the final, I'll try to find some way of displaying it on the screen (though this will necessitate an additional hand in the final to operate the laptop).
There's a difference between volunteering and calling dibs. If you just wait for other people to volunteer, you might find that some people don't bother because they assume that the usual faces will already have the job.
I don't think it's a problem to say to someone that you already have a host, you can just put them on the list for the next event if you're hosting a multi-day event, or pass them on to the host of the next event they'll be at.
But let's actively encourage/ask for volunteers going forward, in advance, and not just wait.
How about we also have hosts police themselves ... if you hosted the previous event, don't bother putting yourself forward to host the next one.
(And all of this comes with the ultimate caveat that the event host has final say on this ... at London last year, the final was hosted by me and Sam, the hosts of the whole event, although arguably there's much less to do in terms of hosting a Bristol-style final.)
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by George Armstrong »

Ben Wilson wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 4:46 pm Calling out letters primary school style: I'm having badges made for next year that have simply 'NO' written on them in order to discourage this.
Do we get a "NO" badge if we refrain from acting like children, or if we do? :lol:
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

George Armstrong wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 5:44 pm
Ben Wilson wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 4:46 pm Calling out letters primary school style: I'm having badges made for next year that have simply 'NO' written on them in order to discourage this.
Do we get a "NO" badge if we refrain from acting like children, or if we do? :lol:
If you get the no badge, it gets stuck into your forehead.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by George Armstrong »

JackHurst wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 5:52 pm
George Armstrong wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 5:44 pm
Ben Wilson wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 4:46 pm Calling out letters primary school style: I'm having badges made for next year that have simply 'NO' written on them in order to discourage this.
Do we get a "NO" badge if we refrain from acting like children, or if we do? :lol:
If you get the no badge, it gets stuck into your forehead.
With a K on the front and a B on the end?
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Marc Meakin »

A list of do's and don't for newbies and a brief outline of the timetable and formatting etc to be available at the venue
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Steve Hyde »

Re: amplification, I'm happy to sling my PA in my car boot for any events I'm driving to
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Phil Stanton »

Steve Hyde wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 11:03 am Re: amplification, I'm happy to sling my PA in my car boot for any events I'm driving to
I hope she's OK with that :P
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Phil Stanton »

Callum Todd wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 11:01 pm - We're all touching the same letters cards all day so please wash your hands. As much as I regret my immaturity in printing "bloody big twat" on the back of those numbers cards I made, I am more regretful that more than one deck of them are now quite literally "bloody" as they are covered in actual bloodstains, and fear there are other, less visible, pathogens soaking into those cards at these events.
On a similar point, given that events typically involve 30-odd (some very odd) people in relatively close proximity to each other, can we make it a requirement that all attendees demonstrate their understanding that "deodorant" is not just a 9-letter word, but also an actual thing that they can and should use. ;)
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by George Armstrong »

Have you bought your prizes for CO:LON yet? Got a couple of random smelly bits from Xmas if you'd like some donations? :lol:
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Thomas Carey »

George Armstrong wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 7:08 pm Have you bought your prizes for CO:LON yet? Got a couple of random smelly bits from Xmas if you'd like some donations? :lol:
mmm, smelly colon
cheers maus
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Phil Stanton »

Tools!

Not being rude, but just a heads-up that all the tools you could ever want (possibly!), whether you're an Event Host or an Attendee, are now in one handy place.

Head on over to https://www.focalcountdown.com/tools for all the goodness.

Event Hosts can share this single link, for their attendees to be able to access everything they might need.
The QR code below will also take you there, if you want to share that too.

Image
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Nice.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I've made suggestions along these lines before but I think the FOCAL structure is overblown and bloated. You have all these individual events that manage to survive on their own, but for some reason money has to be taken from these events to be able to fund this final event at the end of the year. And because of that, FOCAL then needs a treasurer and all the rest of the committee etc. It all seems a bit much. My understanding was that it stemmed from the idea that the top 8 should get into the final event free, but given that most people are agreed that travel/accommodation costs are the main thing, I'm not sure it's necessary. Also I think the final event is generally held in a (s)wanky conference room, which is presumably more expensive, but I don't think anyone goes away from it having had a better time because of the room that it's in. I would get rid of the entire "FOCAL levy" thing and have the final event as just another event that funds itself. Other people I've spoken to tend to agree. Well I would do all that except...

Having thought about this, I would get rid of the final event entirely. I think it kind of cheapens the championship that has been played over many events. And the grand final of the finals even more so. Having this big points championship going down to one match seems a bit "for the show" rather than for the integrity of the competition. I think it would be best just to have the championship held over the year and most points (best total score from six events) wins the FOCAL championship.

There are a couple of other problems with the final event. I think most people would agree that a big stand-alone event (certainly COLIN anyway) is more prestigious than the FOCAL finals, and by having the finals as a stand-alone event, you're inviting this comparison, where it inevitably loses. Also the finals feels a little bit disjointed with the two separate events going on at the same time. And it can feel a bit awkward (if that's the right word) when the winner of the open has played better than all of the finalists over the day (like it's been devalued). The open also seems like a bit of a non-event to those in it. If you win (not that I ever come close) it doesn't really feel like a proper event win because of the players that have been siphoned off the top. So both events suffer because of the existence of the other.

By having FOCAL as a pure points championship, you're making it a different thing from the regular CO-events, and it would no longer be seen as a lesser COLIN. It would be the points championship and as the only one, it would be the definitive and best. And by getting the balance right with number of counting events, you will likely get the year's best player actually winning the thing, rather than turning it into a bit of a lottery at the end, a bit like the NASCAR playoffs. There will still be a final event of the year of course as logic dictates. It won't have any extra points or anything but keep it at a central location and advertise it as the year's finale, and it should still have that nice end-of-term feel about it and attract a lot of participants (and the overall winner would still likely be decided there).
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Thomas Carey »

I want to see gevin eat a crisp
cheers maus
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Thomas Carey »

Fuck it. Have two crisps
cheers maus
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 7:34 pm Some bollocks
Finalists do have to pay for their entry to Focal finals. I wouldn't expect them to have free entry either for reasons you say. I agree that the "Fancy venue" for finals doesn't necessarily add much.

The suggestion of getting rid of FOCAL finals is total shite. Just because Formula 1 works a certain way, doesn't mean Focal has to work the same way!

Not sure I agree with your statement that the end of season finals are a crapshoot - It's one event on the calendar where luck is minimised as much as possible - Round Robin & Bristol format both lower luck of the draw and luck of the maxes respectively. Much better to have a finale than just a damp squib at the end of whatever event is the final event of the year. With your suggestion, you could have a scenario where the end of season winner isn't even present at the event where they get crowned overall champion.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

They used not to have to pay. I believe that was how the whole FOCAL levy was originally sold to us.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Thomas Carey wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 2:29 am I want to see gevin eat a crisp
This can only be interpreted as agreement.
Thomas Carey wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 2:43 am Fuck it. Have two crisps
Doubly so.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by George Armstrong »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 7:34 pm My understanding was that it stemmed from the idea that the top 8 should get into the final event free, but given that most people are agreed that travel/accommodation costs are the main thing, I'm not sure it's necessary. Also I think the final event is generally held in a (s)wanky conference room, which is presumably more expensive, but I don't think anyone goes away from it having had a better time because of the room that it's in. I would get rid of the entire "FOCAL levy" thing and have the final event as just another event that funds itself.
Yes, part of the levy goes in to funding FOCAL finals. Part of the levy however goes into paying for things like website maintenance, shared resources (like letters packs and the projector), as well as the FOCAL first aid training day to come later in the year. If you propose getting rid of the levy entirely, where do you suggest the money to pay for these things comes from? FOCAL has always run as non-profit, meaning that hosts both don't take a fee, but aren't expected to put a fee in.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

There were CO-events before FOCAL and its levy and I'm not sure how many people get their FOCAL info from the paid-for website when other alternatives exist.

But I can appreciate there are certain things that do cost money that are useful to have, so it's a question of whether it requires the FOCAL structure in its current form to achieve it. Most of these things seem to be one-offs and letters packs have been around the scene for years.

Edit - saved you money on the first aid.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Phil Stanton »

If we want to grow our attendee-base (and I think it's probably a given that we do), then having something centralised like FOCAL is the way to do it.
It's far easier to point a newbie to the FOCAL website rather than telling them to trawl around C4C or search for events on Facebook, not to mention the fact that it just looks more professional (and therefore more appealing to newbies in particular) in terms of unified branding, centralised socials, etc.

It also lets us cover some important bases in regards to running events generally, such as the FOCAL code of conduct, safeguarding, etc.
These things probably weren't even considered in the pre-FOCAL days, but it's better to proactive about them, and it gives newbies some reassurance.

Re the letters packs, Beachy is steadily making new ones; the first couple of these were in use at Liverpool. Apart from the fact that they look a lot better, they also mean there's much less chance of variability across tables in terms of things like letter distribution.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Fiona T »

I quite like the focal finals, but have to confess that as a newbie I was very confused by the structure and how it all worked.

I think focal points are more important to some than others, but there's no doubt there was a lot of discussion about what was needed for various people to qualify before Braintree, and I think it probably did boost attendance and enhance the enjoyment (even for interested non-qualifiers like me).

The non-focal UK events (such as MSO) haven't generally enjoyed anywhere near the same attendance numbers despite being widely advertised outside the normal circles - whether that's down to no points, or Sunday event starting at 10 it's hard to say, but given last year's was a 'double header' it was a shame that a few more didn't stay for it.

Maybe start a poll Gev? :)
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Fiona T »

To add, there's absoultely nothing stopping anyone organising an event outside of focal, so the fact that most organisers choose to host their events within the structure suggests there's some perceived benefit in doing so!
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Fiona T wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 5:37 pm To add, there's absoultely nothing stopping anyone organising an event outside of focal, so the fact that most organisers choose to host their events within the structure suggests there's some perceived benefit in doing so!
Well given the existence of FOCAL, it's definitely an advantage for an event to be in FOCAL, but that doesn't mean FOCAL is a good thing to start with. Though I don't think I'm actually arguing against FOCAL per se, more just the level of bureaucracy of it.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

On a related note, I was looking at the FOCAL website and couldn't find the bit where it said about the levy. But it was pointed out to me that you have to click on the "FAQS" bit. But when you go to "FAQS" it gives you a drop-down menu of things to click on, so I don't think it's obvious that clicking on the heading itself is a thing you should do. Upcoming events is the same. I think it's not that intuitive a design.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Fiona T »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 6:17 pm
Fiona T wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 5:37 pm To add, there's absoultely nothing stopping anyone organising an event outside of focal, so the fact that most organisers choose to host their events within the structure suggests there's some perceived benefit in doing so!
Well given the existence of FOCAL, it's definitely an advantage for an event to be in FOCAL, but that doesn't mean FOCAL is a good thing to start with. Though I don't think I'm actually arguing against FOCAL per se, more just the level of bureaucracy of it.
There's very little bureaucracy really isn't there? Hosts are pretty much free to run events however they choose - all FOCAL really does is provide an umbrella and organise the finals, promote events and provide a point of contact. The committee meetings are pretty informal (or were when I was on it). The code of conduct can only be a good thing and doesn't feel excessively bureaucratic. DBS checks has been argued about, but again, whatever your opinion on their necessity/usefulness, aren't excessively onerous or bureaucratic. Compared to other committees I've seen in action, it's pretty chilled!
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

JackHurst wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 11:45 am The suggestion of getting rid of FOCAL finals is total shite. Just because Formula 1 works a certain way, doesn't mean Focal has to work the same way!
I don't see why it's shite, and it's nothing to do with F1! In any case, I made specific points which I think are valid.
Not sure I agree with your statement that the end of season finals are a crapshoot - It's one event on the calendar where luck is minimised as much as possible - Round Robin & Bristol format both lower luck of the draw and luck of the maxes respectively. Much better to have a finale than just a damp squib at the end of whatever event is the final event of the year. With your suggestion, you could have a scenario where the end of season winner isn't even present at the event where they get crowned overall champion.
It depends on what you mean by crapshoot. In a given game, the better player has a >50% of winning, so better players are more likely to win. I'm not saying it's all luck. But it still comes down to a single one-off game, and possibly a crucial conundrum at the end of that.

I don't think it really matters if the winner isn't at the final event. I could turn that around and say that with the current scenario, you can have someone dominating all year going to pretty much all the events, but because they can't make one specific date (among the 20 or whatever) they have no chance of being champion, with the champion being someone who only just made it to enough events over the year and scraped into 9th place in the rankings, promoted to 8th because the top player couldn't make it.

I would say that given the top players going to enough events, the points winner is a better indicator of the best player of the year than the FOCAL champion.
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 9:42 am I would say that given the top players going to enough events, the points winner is a better indicator of the best player of the year than the FOCAL champion.
Let's suppose you were correct with this point. Of the 20ish regular players on the circuit at the moment who entertain the idea of trying to qualify for Focal top 8 in the current system, how many of those players do you think would enjoy your suggested system more?

Likewise, for the players who come to events, but never really entertain the idea of qualifying for end of season finals, how many of them would care either way?



What are you trying to optimize here? If you just want to systematically award a prize to the statistically best Countdown, we can scrap FOCAL and co-events compeltely in favour of running `listOf("Foster", "Worsley", "Travers").random()` once a month....
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

JackHurst wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 11:19 am
Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 9:42 am I would say that given the top players going to enough events, the points winner is a better indicator of the best player of the year than the FOCAL champion.
Let's suppose you were correct with this point. Of the 20ish regular players on the circuit at the moment who entertain the idea of trying to qualify for Focal top 8 in the current system, how many of those players do you think would enjoy your suggested system more?

Likewise, for the players who come to events, but never really entertain the idea of qualifying for end of season finals, how many of them would care either way?
I don't know actually. Do you?

What are you trying to optimize here? If you just want to systematically award a prize to the statistically best Countdown, we can scrap FOCAL and co-events compeltely in favour of running `listOf("Foster", "Worsley", "Travers").random()` once a month....
Well it's not just about statistically the best based on all data (Apterous etc.) It would be about specifically having played the best at the year's tournaments.

But as I've said, in terms of a big one-off event where you have to be present on the day, we have COLIN, and that's bigger and more prestigious than the FOCAL finals. So I do think there's something to be said for the FOCAL championships finding a slightly different niche.
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