People you shouldn't trust

[Gavin Chipper]

You don't need to be able to define where the distinction is exactly to recognise that there is one. I think we can all agree that (for example) it's stupid to call you an influencer but quite sensible to call (e.g.) James Charles an influencer.

"Ooo-er, shades of grey exist so what does it even mean to say that something is black?" - Gevin, probably

Primarily it's just a shit and really annoying word for this usage. That's the bottom line.

[Gavin Chipper]

People who eat food that's too hot to touch (sorry for putting this in yet another thread).

People who treat names that end with an s like plurals when it comes to possessive apostrophes - they'll write (and say) "Dave Edwards' nose" rather than "Dave Edwards's nose". Even worse is when they do it with a name that ends in an s but isn't even like a plural - e.g. "Chris' nose". (Though normally they wouldn't say it like that.)

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

People who make judgements of character based on prescriptivist grammar rules that aren't even universally accepted.

People who use language to reinforce the class and cultural boundaries that disproportionately disadvantage BAME people.

[Callum Todd]

People who make judgements of character based on prescriptivist grammar rules that aren't even universally accepted.

People who use language to reinforce the class and cultural boundaries that disproportionately disadvantage BAME people.

I think I understand your first point to be a dig at Gavin's previous post. But could you elaborate on your second point please? I've read it over a couple of times and can't work out what it means.

[Gavin Chipper]

People who make judgements of character based on prescriptivist grammar rules that aren't even universally accepted.

It's precisely because it's not universally accepted that we can use it to distinguish between people, based on logic, aesthetics, not being a complete lunatic etc. Like some people say "aitch" and some say "haitch", but we all know which is better...

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

Its the idea that there is one true "right" way to speak and write English, which happens to roughly correspond roughly to the form of English spoken and written by the white southern middle classes. Historically, by the way, there's a popular theory that much of the grammar and vocabulary of that form of English was invented by the middle classes in an apparent attempt to set themselves apart as distinct from the lower working class - and it seems to have worked.

The result of this is that people who speak the "wrong" English find themselves disadvantaged, primarily in the workplace and in the criminal justice system - they become stereotyped as unintellectual, uneducated, unprofessional etc. And such people are very often from minority ethnic backgrounds or from less affluent areas of the country.

[Callum Todd]

Interesting points. Clearly there isn't one true "right" way to speak and write English. But there surely aren't an infinite amount either, and therefore there are many "wrong" ways to speak and write English.

For example, if I wished to say something like 'Hello; how are you?' then of the following:

a) Hello; how are you?
b) Hello, how are you?
c) Hello. How are you?
d) Good morrow. How do you do?
e) Hi, how's it going?
f) yo wasup
g) Guten tag. Wie gehts?
h) Un million de pommes de terre ont été récoltées dans le centre de la Lettonie l'été dernier.

I would say a-f are fine. Pedants might pick at a less preferable style of grammar between a-c, and snobs and anti-snobs might hold one or more of d-f in disregard, but they're all clear communications of basically the same message in English. But g is definitely wrong, as despite meaning roughly the same thing, it's not in English. And h is just an omnishambles.

They are silly examples of course, but if we can accept that a is correct and h is incorrect, it is reasonable to assume that of the infinite array of sentences one could compose between those two levels of correctness, there is something of a continuum in which some are "right" and some are "wrong".

Exactly where that line ends up getting drawn is always going to be at least somewhat subjective, so everyone's going to have their own opinion on where it is. But it certainly exists, and it's reasonable for a language to have rules and structure that roughly approximate the location of this line.

Therefore, if there are specified rules on use of language understood to govern grammar, etc, at any given time, it is understandable that people may make character judgments of others based on their compliance with, or competence at, following these rules. Within the workplace and the criminal justice system, an important thing to learn about someone is their willingness and ability to follow a structured set of rules. Their use of language is a good allegory for this and is therefore relevant.

Where it gets tricky is how pedantic can the employer/manager/judge/jury/police be in this instance? Are they judging someone based on a "wrong" use of language that objectively does fail to follow the well understood rules? Or are they just being nitpicky because someone isn't doing things exactly how they prefer to do? In other words, is the language they are judging to be wrong actually wrong (which some language clearly is) or is it just "wrong"?

Your tangential point about the development of language along social hierarchical lines is interesting; I didn't know that but it makes sense and I expect it probably would have worked.

I suppose one reason some minority ethnic people might be disproportionately disadvantaged by this is that some of them will not have English as their first or only language, which is likely to produce some (real or perceived) irregularities in their use of the language.

But mostly I think any judgment along these lines that disproportionately disadvantages ethnic minority people is likely to be more a product of good old fashioned racism/bigotry/prejudice. If the employer/manager/judge/jury/police is really just judging their subject based on their use of language then ethnicity really has no reason to come in to it unless they are judging people based on the colour of their skin rather than the content of their character/language.

[Gavin Chipper]

Well this got interesting.

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

I pretty much agree with you there Callum, although I don't quite understand the last paragraph.

I was thinking less though about language like your f) for which a good case can be made of its unsuitability in various contexts, and more about things like the two examples Gevin has given in this thread - apostrophes after s in written English, and aitch versus haitch.

The first of these is probably a poor example, because I don't think the majority convention is understood or followed by an actual majority, and I think it's unlikely to be a discriminator. But it's a good example of the general point - someone can believe a language rule to be correct and self-evident, when to those outside their communities it is anything but. Even grammarians don't agree universally on that rule. And it is not true that everyone pronounces "James's" in "James's phone" as "James's". For example, I grew up in Cornwall, where pretty much everyone pronounced it as "James phone". They also say text rather than texted - eg "I text you this morning" to mean "I sent you a text". Just another example that language is not centralised, and evolves differently in different communities to enable effective communication.

As to aitch versus haitch, that really is likely to be a discriminator for people who actually believe one is better than the other, leading to snap judgements that form a basis for your impression of someone. And it's a good example, because haitch is generally considered "incorrect" and is also historically more widely used among the lower classes.

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

It maybe goes without saying, although I will say it, that this effect manifests itself almost entirely unconsciously, and most people won't realise they do it. It's human nature to feel wary of people who are marked as different, and language is one way that happens. Sadly this means that people who have different language in general to those in positions of power and privilege feel the effects worst.

So I'm not having a dig at people who like to follow the rules as they see them. I count myself among such people. But the only way to overcome unconscious bias is to recognise it where it exists - that's what I'm trying to do.

[Gavin Chipper]

There's quite a lot of posts about "haitch" on this forum if you do a search. I suppose it is snobby. But I think if you vocalise this stuff, you become more aware of your bias so you're probably more able to turn it off in "real life" situations.

[Matt Morrison]

We've also talked about "text" a lot. I mean, I say "I fucking text you Gevin you prick". But then I am a bit common.
However I don't go as far as to say "I sent you a texted", and that is a thing. Not sure of my point, but I love bringing up the "texted" thing.

[Matt Morrison]

...they'll write (and say) "Dave Edwards' nose" rather than "Dave Edwards's nose". Even worse is when they do it with a name that ends in an s but isn't even like a plural...

I found this mental. I think in my whole time I've never met someone who considers "Edwards" as a surname to be a bunch of Edward...s. Is this a thing? Am I the mad one?

[Gavin Chipper]

We've also talked about "text" a lot. I mean, I say "I fucking text you Gevin you prick". But then I am a bit common.
However I don't go as far as to say "I sent you a texted", and that is a thing. Not sure of my point, but I love bringing up the "texted" thing.

Yeah, there's a whole thread on this.

...they'll write (and say) "Dave Edwards' nose" rather than "Dave Edwards's nose". Even worse is when they do it with a name that ends in an s but isn't even like a plural...

I found this mental. I think in my whole time I've never met someone who considers "Edwards" as a surname to be a bunch of Edward...s. Is this a thing? Am I the mad one?

I mean, I don't think anyone thinks like that, but the name "Edwards" is a bit like a plural word, and I think that must be where the not-sticking-an-s-on-the-end must come from.

Whereas saying "Chris'" instead of "Chris's" is a one way ticket to the lunatic asylum. Writing and saying it differently is also pretty weird and you're not immune from a good sectioning.

[Matt Morrison]

We've also talked about "text" a lot. I mean, I say "I fucking text you Gevin you prick". But then I am a bit common.
However I don't go as far as to say "I sent you a texted", and that is a thing. Not sure of my point, but I love bringing up the "texted" thing.

Yeah, there's a whole thread on this.

Except it only covers "texted" verbally, not nounally.

[Mark Deeks]

Grammar and spelling pedants. Basically a game of one-upmanship, of intelligent/pseudo-intellectual/people who for some reason think that they are intelligent trying to prove they are more intelligent than you. Good for you, big man, but it really doesn't matter.

[Marc Meakin]

People who get tetchy about the grocers apostrophe

[Gavin Chipper]

Grammar and spelling pedants. Basically a game of one-upmanship, of intelligent/pseudo-intellectual/people who for some reason think that they are intelligent trying to prove they are more intelligent than you. Good for you, big man, but it really doesn't matter.

You've got us all there.

[Paul Worsley]

People (poker commentators) who pronounce the number three as tray.

I play poker regularly, (or I did), all over the NW, and I don't remember anyone saying "tray". However, "deuce" for two, is quite common. I think it's not a bad idea to add poker players, including commentators, to the list of people you shouldn't trust.

[Ian Volante]

People who get tetchy about the grocers apostrophe

*grocer's

[Mark James]

People who don't want to know how magic tricks are done. Penn and Teller's Fool Us is back on and I still like it and all but I get sick of them speaking in code. I think it would be a better show if they just told us how it was done. Even the foolers. I want to see Penn and Teller's reaction to the method. For me it never ruins it. I watch tons of magic tutorials on YouTube. They do the performance, it's great, you're amazed, then they show you how they did it and you're amazed again. In fact what really amazes me is that every trick hasn't actually been exposed on YouTube yet.

[Fred Mumford]

what really amazes me is that every trick hasn't actually been exposed on YouTube yet.

Obviously the ones not exposed must use actual magic.

Agree completely though. Knowing how it's done has never spoiled a trick for me.

[Noel Mc]

Regarding the aitch/haitch situation, where I live there is a rather funny/depressing split along typical Northern Ireland lines for the pronunciation.

I taught in a school for a year and intentionally changed my pronunciation of the letter, mainly just to avoid boring conversation. I did randomly drop in my natural pronunciation every so often, only to see some pupils give confused glances at eachother across the room.

See also the pronunciation of the name Mary: (Merry/Meery)

[Marc Meakin]

Regarding the aitch/haitch situation, where I live there is a rather funny/depressing split along typical Northern Ireland lines for the pronunciation.

I taught in a school for a year and intentionally changed my pronunciation of the letter, mainly just to avoid boring conversation. I did randomly drop in my natural pronunciation every so often, only to see some pupils give confused glances at eachother across the room.

See also the pronunciation of the name Mary: (Merry/Meery)

My favourite word spoken with an Irish lilt is film (fillum)

[Gavin Chipper]

Regarding the aitch/haitch situation, where I live there is a rather funny/depressing split along typical Northern Ireland lines for the pronunciation.

I taught in a school for a year and intentionally changed my pronunciation of the letter, mainly just to avoid boring conversation. I did randomly drop in my natural pronunciation every so often, only to see some pupils give confused glances at eachother across the room.

See also the pronunciation of the name Mary: (Merry/Meery)

I notice how you haven't given away your natural pronunciation!

[Gavin Chipper]

People who don't want to know how magic tricks are done. Penn and Teller's Fool Us is back on and I still like it and all but I get sick of them speaking in code. I think it would be a better show if they just told us how it was done. Even the foolers. I want to see Penn and Teller's reaction to the method. For me it never ruins it. I watch tons of magic tutorials on YouTube. They do the performance, it's great, you're amazed, then they show you how they did it and you're amazed again. In fact what really amazes me is that every trick hasn't actually been exposed on YouTube yet.

I agree.

People who, because magicians don't want to reveal their secrets, have become successfully brainwashed into actively not wanting to know how tricks are done. I would consider that to be one of the best mind control tricks ever.

I don't think Penn and Teller are keeping it secret for our benefit. People don't want to know how tricks are done because magicians don't want them to know and convince them to think that. I'm fairly sure it's that way round. And I think it's largely because a lot of tricks use basically the same technique so the magicians are worried we'd find them all less impressive over time. It definitely wouldn't ruin a trick (for basically anyone) to know how it's done on an individual occasion, but over time, magicians probably have this worry people will get bored and less impressed and they'll be made redundant.

I can understand someone not wanting to be told how a trick works if they want to work it out for themselves. Otherwise I'd just consider them to be an incurious and easily led simpleton. Is that too harsh?

[Marc Meakin]

People who send novelty wreathes to funerals.

[Noel Mc]

I notice how you haven't given away your natural pronunciation!

I'm a haitch/Meery sort of person!

[Gavin Chipper]

People who have really specific dislikes that aren't particularly rational or likely to have any biological basis but are also shared by a suspiciously large number of people, suggesting that they just copied off each other. The main two I'm thinking of here are a fear of clowns and a dislike of the word "moist".

[Graeme Cole]

People who have really specific dislikes that aren't particularly rational or likely to have any biological basis but are also shared by a suspiciously large number of people, suggesting that they just copied off each other. The main two I'm thinking of here are a fear of clowns and a dislike of the word "moist".

C4C has a whole thread of things like this.

[Gavin Chipper]

People who have really specific dislikes that aren't particularly rational or likely to have any biological basis but are also shared by a suspiciously large number of people, suggesting that they just copied off each other. The main two I'm thinking of here are a fear of clowns and a dislike of the word "moist".

C4C has a whole thread of things like this.

[Gavin Chipper]

People who clog up my Facebook feed with pictures of their children on their first day back at school.

People don't care about other people's children. Everyone knows this until they have their own children for some reason.

[Phil Reynolds]

See also the pronunciation of the name Mary: (Merry/Meery)

I don't understand. I don't know anyone who pronounces the name Mary in either of these ways.

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

People don't care about other people's children. Everyone knows this until they have their own children for some reason.

After becoming a parent, I suddenly found that I was interested not only in my own child but also those of my friends. I think this experience isn't uncommon.

[Matt Morrison]

Most kids are shit. You get the occasional interesting one. It's no surprise, since people of all ages generally follow the same rule.

[Marc Meakin]

Most kids are shit. You get the occasional interesting one. It's no surprise, since people of all ages generally follow the same rule.

I think when you become a grandparent kids stop being so shit as you can cling on to life by enjoying the fleeting moments with your children's children plus if they piss you off you have the luxury of handing them back

[Marc Meakin]

People who dimiss something as shit on the basis they don't understand it

[Gavin Chipper]

People who dimiss something as shit on the basis they don't understand it

Well that's this whole thread and the joke items one done for.

[Marc Meakin]

People who dimiss something as shit on the basis they don't understand it

Well that's this whole thread and the joke items one done for.

I should have qualified my statement by say people who think a piece of art is shit.

[Noel Mc]

See also the pronunciation of the name Mary: (Merry/Meery)

I don't understand. I don't know anyone who pronounces the name Mary in either of these ways.

What other way is it pronounced??

[Phil Reynolds]

See also the pronunciation of the name Mary: (Merry/Meery)

I don't understand. I don't know anyone who pronounces the name Mary in either of these ways.

What other way is it pronounced??

Mary, the way it's spelled. Rhymes with hairy.

[Gavin Chipper]

Looks to me like it's spelt to rhyme with Ferrari.

[Phil Reynolds]

Looks to me like it's spelt to rhyme with Ferrari.

Whereas it looks to me like it's spelled to rhyme with wary.

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

Looks to me like it's spelt to rhyme with Ferrari.

Whereas it looks to me like it's spelled to rhyme with wary.

What about Gary?

[Marc Meakin]

Looks to me like it's spelt to rhyme with Ferrari.

Whereas it looks to me like it's spelled to rhyme with wary.

What about Gary?

My brother is Garry so no ambiguity there.

Back to Mary, my favourite pronunciation is Maori is in Mary Poppins by the method actor Dick Van Dyke as Burt

[Gavin Chipper]

Looks to me like it's spelt to rhyme with Ferrari.

Whereas it looks to me like it's spelled to rhyme with wary.

What about Gary?

This was my thought as well. There is a standard method pronunciation of "ar" and a couple of *ary words that are pronounced "airy" isn't enough to make a rule especially when Gary exists as well.

[Phil Reynolds]

Whereas it looks to me like it's spelled to rhyme with wary.

What about Gary?

This was my thought as well. There is a standard method pronunciation of "ar" and a couple of *ary words that are pronounced "airy" isn't enough to make a rule especially when Gary exists as well.

"Similarly spelt words in English pronounced differently" shock.

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

"Similarly spelt words in English pronounced differently" shock.

Well, you started it:

What other way is it pronounced??

Mary, the way it's spelled. Rhymes with hairy.

[Marc Meakin]

The most obvious inconsistencies are for words ending Ough.
Cough
Tough
Bough
Dough

[Phil Reynolds]

"Similarly spelt words in English pronounced differently" shock.

Well, you started it:

Mary, the way it's spelled. Rhymes with hairy.

My point was that nothing about the spelling of Mary suggests it should be pronounced either "Merry" or "Meery".

[Ian Volante]

"Similarly spelt words in English pronounced differently" shock.

Well, you started it:

Mary, the way it's spelled. Rhymes with hairy.

My point was that nothing about the spelling of Mary suggests it should be pronounced either "Merry" or "Meery".

You clearly aren't from Glasgow!

[Gavin Chipper]

Driving things are probably a bit too obvious but so many people do this specific thing - people who signal right to go onto a roundabout and just carry on signalling right until they leave.

Signalling right seems pretty redundant to me anyway. It's far more important to indicate left when you're leaving. People who are joining the roundabout need to know if they can join or not!

So really - people who don't signal left when they're turning off a roundabout. At least if there's other cars around that might need to know.

[Marc Meakin]

Driving things are probably a bit too obvious but so many people do this specific thing - people who signal right to go onto a roundabout and just carry on signalling right until they leave.

Signalling right seems pretty redundant to me anyway. It's far more important to indicate left when you're leaving. People who are joining the roundabout need to know if they can join or not!

So really - people who don't signal left when they're turning off a roundabout. At least if there's other cars around that might need to know.

I'm a cyclist and if I don't see a signal from a car at a roundabout I assume they are going straight over.
Needless to say I have had many a near miss and shouting match because of this.
I always think as long as there are witnesses I am in the right even if I'm in a fatal accident

[Gavin Chipper]

I should have added anyone that might need to know, not just cars. If I'm crossing a road off a roundabout, if they're not indicating I'm crossing.

[Conor]

People who say 'The Rona' to mean Covid-19.

[Marc Meakin]

People who say 'The Rona' to mean Covid-19.

It's a bit better than Wuhan Flu

[Gavin Chipper]

People who have a hairstyle where their hair goes over one of their eyes.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Anyone involved with the Red Bull F1 Team.

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

The current government

[Ian Volante]

The current government

An eternal truism.