Getting a UK Countdown ranking

[Tom]

Hey folks, this might be a crazy idea but I'd thought it put it out there and that was the idea of being able to have a UK Countdown ranking like you do in Scrabble?

With there now being I would guess around half a dozen CO-events a year, these events seem to be very much part of the landscape with forumites and aperites alike. With the success of these events and so many variants of Countdown on Apterous and new variants now coming to the tournaments, I wondered if there was a way you could have something like a UK open event for Countdown?

Another reason I've mentioned this idea is with the CO-events, there seems to be a healthy turnout for them, new people seem to debut at each event I've been to and it isn't I would say at all male dominated. Whether these newbies are new to the forums here, have discovered Apterous in one way or another I don't know, but what I am saying is the turnouts for these events and on Apterous isn't 0.1% of the Countdown viewing public and the highly ranked Apto players and you are getting a wide range of people with a reasonable amount of variance in ability. I went to COHUD this weekend and whilst James and Jeff did an absolutely fantastic job of organising it, what was pleasing to see is that they got 2 attendees in as a result of local advertising. Granted its only 2, but its a start and I do think Countdown and these events have the potential with the way things are now with Apterous and the CO-events to become able to get something like a UK ranking and maybe even form part of the mindsport events.

Maybe if there was an event like this, you could have a tournament which had 100 rounds to play over a day with 70 letter games, 20 numbers and 10 conundrums and the rounds could increase with difficulty with higher probability words and harder number solutions and Conundrums as time progressed.

Someone said to me along the lines of "I'm surprised these events haven't taken off like Scrabble" My view is that I think they have the potential to. There are several Scrabble clubs round the country and a UK rankings/ratings system. With Countdown having its own program as opposed to just having a board game like in Scrabble, I can't see why Countdown could take the same principle as Scrabble when we have our own program plus having Apterous and the several CO-events.

Maybe one of the reasons why this may not have happened is the fact (to my knowledge) there are only 2 Countdown clubs in the country with Edinburgh and Bristol (though I'm not sure the latter still exists) From memory, I think Ben Wilson looked at starting one in Lincoln several years ago but it didn't take off maybe due to a lack of interest but then if that is the case maybe that's what started him doing CO-LIN.

[Ben Wilson]

Co-events are definitely increasing both in number and in popularity. In 2005 there were only two co-events, both of which were lucky to get over 20 people, last year there were 7 events, many of which attracted over 30 players, and this year entry number have topped the 40 mark for the very first time, putting co-events on a par with all bar the very biggest Scrabble tourneys. The increased popularity of apterous will increase the popularity of co-events, arguably more than local advertising would. (You're right about COLIN growing out of a failed club idea, btw.)

There used to be a rating system for co-events like there was for Scrabble, but it was abandoned a while back as it wasn't without its flaws- most notably, that it included online games as well as co-event games, and only Charlie really knew how to use it. A rating system could be implemented easily enough but there are obstacles to it, most notably that not all co-events are the same, some play to 9 round games, some to 15 round games, some tournaments require 'bye' games against Apterous Prune etc. And it's not guaranteed that all tournament organisers would agree to having their events 'rated'. If there's enough call for it, though...

And a large-scale UK Open event for Countdown? Definitely doable, depending on the cost and the venue.

[Zarte Siempre]

I can't offer a very in-depth opinion as I don't know 1) what the Scrabble thingy is like and 2) how manageable all this is.

But on paper, I like the sound of it.

[Andy Platt]

Agree, sounds good if we can keep improving the attendance and popularity of events.

But at the moment it is probably unnecessary, as when there's an event, everyone already knows the 10-20% of players that could feasibly win or make the final.

[Zarte Siempre]

Would be useful for exact seedings and the like though

[Anthony Endsor]

On the one hand it's definitely a nice idea, in that it would bring an incentive for players to aim higher if they knew they were aiming for some sort of public exposure. However, the down side would be that it might actually put off some people from attending CO events. For example, the 2 ladies who responded to the advert and came to CO-HUD, if they knew they were playing with say, 10 of the UK's top 20 players, and many others on the border of say the top 50, whilst they themselves were unrated, would they have still come along? I think maybe not.
We need to be careful not to alienate the very people we are trying to attract to these events. The top players don't need any incentive to come. If they're available on the day and it's convenient for them, they'll come if they're coming. A UK ranking won't change their minds either way. But for everyone else, we need to make it clear that these are open events and anyone can come whether or not they have played Countdown before. We need to keep the fun aspect to them as if people are taking the time, trouble and expense to come, the least we can do is make sure it's worth their while.

[Andy Platt]

Eh, good post ^

[Adam Gillard]

Just an aside that no-one has mentioned yet - Des Chiffres et des Lettres (the original French version) is massively popular in France. I was speaking to Rémi Benoit on apterous and he said they have something like 10 tournaments around the country PER WEEK. Granted, France is bigger than the UK, but still! They probably also use particularly difficult rounds like Tom suggested in the original post, as the 'Trophée des As' (Champion of Champions) on TV does that. I'm sure Rémi or someone else could provide more details, but it shows how much a large fanbase could potentially do with Countdown events!

[Ben Wilson]

Just an aside that no-one has mentioned yet - Des Chiffres et des Lettres (the original French version) is massively popular in France. I was speaking to Rémi Benoit on apterous and he said they have something like 10 tournaments around the country PER WEEK. Granted, France is bigger than the UK, but still! They probably also use particularly difficult rounds like Tom suggested in the original post, as the 'Trophée des As' (Champion of Champions) on TV does that. I'm sure Rémi or someone else could provide more details, but it shows how much a large fanbase could potentially do with Countdown events!

I'd be interested to see the attendance figures at those events as well as the incentives for winning, especially whether or not cash prizes are offered. Most Scrabble tournaments attract the big names with promises of cash prizes, in particular the British Open at the start of January, which has persuaded the unofficial 'best ever' Scrabbler Nigel Richards to fly halfway around the world to play for a £2500 top prize (and, more often than not, win it). It'd be easy to up the entry fee of COLIN by £5 to offer a £100 top prize but the consensus in the past has been that cash prizes generally wouldn't make a difference to attendance figures and would detract from the fun aspect of the day. I can always organise another tournament with big cash prizes to test the waters there, I suppose.

[Ryan Taylor]

If cash prizes were ever introduced then I'd be of the opinion that they should be awarded for winners of sections similar to how Jeff has traditionally gone about sorting players into groups A, B and C as opposed to either just the person who wins, or the top 2 or 3 etc. This would keep it competitive for everyone involved and should a ranking system ever be in place then that would make grouping similar abilities easier. Having said that, I don't think Countdown events need cash prizes.

[Guy Barry]

Just an aside that no-one has mentioned yet - Des Chiffres et des Lettres (the original French version) is massively popular in France. I was speaking to Rémi Benoit on apterous and he said they have something like 10 tournaments around the country PER WEEK.

Not only that, but I was surprised to discover that they're regularly advertised on the programme. Would that be permitted on the UK version?

Granted, France is bigger than the UK, but still!

Only slightly in terms of population - 65 million against 63 million. Much bigger in area of course.

[Mark Deeks]

On the one hand it's definitely a nice idea, in that it would bring an incentive for players to aim higher if they knew they were aiming for some sort of public exposure. However, the down side would be that it might actually put off some people from attending CO events. For example, the 2 ladies who responded to the advert and came to CO-HUD, if they knew they were playing with say, 10 of the UK's top 20 players, and many others on the border of say the top 50, whilst they themselves were unrated, would they have still come along? I think maybe not.
We need to be careful not to alienate the very people we are trying to attract to these events. The top players don't need any incentive to come. If they're available on the day and it's convenient for them, they'll come if they're coming. A UK ranking won't change their minds either way. But for everyone else, we need to make it clear that these are open events and anyone can come whether or not they have played Countdown before. We need to keep the fun aspect to them as if people are taking the time, trouble and expense to come, the least we can do is make sure it's worth their while.

I don't see that as necessarily all that different to turning up and losing heavily anyway, which will have been the incumbent way.

[Tom]

If you did have a UK open event for Countdown, I can't see any reason as to why you wouldn't be able to surpass well over 50 people if it was marketed correctly and the location was right. If circa 40 people now come to a CO-event and adding the assumption you would get a large number of Apterites participate given this would be the first of its kind, I'd say getting over 50 participants isn't a bold statement.

For instance if I was organising a tournament like this, I would market it in the same way the 30th BC was done in putting a notice on here and sending out ads to various scrabble clubs. If people from Scrabble clubs participated in the Championship I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to get more numbers as a result of putting it out to them. Granted with the difference in dictionaries some people may be reluctant but I still think you would get a fair number who'd do it, whether for fun or otherwise.

Secondly, make the location central in the UK and easily accessible and hold it at a time in the year which isn't in the holiday seasons or clashed with or within a week or two a CO-event.

Whilst it goes without saying the target audience for something like this would be the top Countdowners and secondarily Scrabble players, I do think outsiders of those groups you could draw people into participating. You could probably advertise through a couple of quizzing websites and if Countdown can get a mention for the all-nighter London event in the Independent (I think) last year, you may be able to get a national paper to mention the event beforehand.

Yes some outsiders may be put off by the thought of being in an event with the UK's top 10% of Countdown players but I think with the friendly atmosphere it fosters they shouldn't really feel unnerved. I personally don't think it takes a genius to work out that if you are an outsider, an event like this would attract top players. I'd do it where no one plays each other, its all against all and all, and all you are fighting for is your UK ranking at Countdown.

I do firmly believe if you are having an event like this to make the rounds harder as they go along which would put more pressure on the top players certainly when vying for position and to sort out the good from the really good. For example if you had the letters selection A E I C D H P S T, most people would see PITCHES or PATCHES at a minimum. Good players would get DISPATCH or DESPATCH and exceptional players would spot PASTICHED or CADETSHIP. Make the scoring standard and if hypothetically after the conventional rounds it was a draw between the top 2 players, do it by number of maxes and if that was still level sort it by a conundrum.

Just food for thought

[Ben Wilson]

For instance if I was organising a tournament like this, I would market it in the same way the 30th BC was done in putting a notice on here and sending out ads to various scrabble clubs. If people from Scrabble clubs participated in the Championship I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to get more numbers as a result of putting it out to them. Granted with the difference in dictionaries some people may be reluctant but I still think you would get a fair number who'd do it, whether for fun or otherwise.

I wouldn't bother advertising to the Scrabble fraternity, and I haven't advertised COLIN on uk-s or anywhere else for the last three years. I learned a long time ago that the Scrabble/Countdown crossover is phenomenally limited. Basically the only scrabblers who care about Countdown already play on apterous and the only Countdowners who bother with Scrabble already play in tournaments or isc.

Secondly, make the location central in the UK and easily accessible and hold it at a time in the year which isn't in the holiday seasons or clashed with or within a week or two a CO-event.

Depends on what you mean by 'holiday seasons' here as Co:Rea has got good attendance despite being at Easter. If I were organising something like this I'd go for the Saturday before the Spring Bank Holiday (usually the last one in May). As for central location, nah, sod it, just hold it in London. All the London events so far have been bursting at the seams.

Whilst it goes without saying the target audience for something like this would be the top Countdowners and secondarily Scrabble players, I do think outsiders of those groups you could draw people into participating. You could probably advertise through a couple of quizzing websites and if Countdown can get a mention for the all-nighter London event in the Independent (I think) last year, you may be able to get a national paper to mention the event beforehand.

Possibly a bit optimistic here. I got the impression the Independent reporter only knew about CoBliv as he was a mate of Josh Hurst's. You might get a mention in a local paper but don't expect it to generate any publicity- I advertised COLIN on local radio once and didn't get any attendees out of it. Then again, if the event were in a massive population centre instead of a minuscule city in the middle of a field...

You've obviously put a lot of thought into this idea and it'd be good to see a different type of event take its place in the calendar. Enthusiasm is always a good thing when it comes to organising and promoting events and I reckon there is room for the co-event scene to expand further, possibly even to monthly events within a few years.

[David Barnard]

Would be a good idea but pro ranks on apterous is usually a pretty good indicator of ranking