Re: Politics in General
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:13 pm
A group for contestants and lovers of the Channel 4 game show 'Countdown'.
http://www.c4countdown.co.uk/
Shouldn't this be in the unpopular opinion threadGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm First of all, Hamas likely exists in the form it does because of the oppression by Israel on the Palestinians for decades. It breeds terrorism. Also far more Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces over the decades than vice versa. Does it make such a difference that Hamas killed a lot of Israeli civilians in one go rather than far more but spread out over a longer period of time? The Israeli government is a terrorist organisation just as Hamas is. So if you're arguing that it's acceptable for Israel to kill over 10,000 Palestinians in response to what Hamas did, you could just as well argue that what Hamas did was acceptable as a response to decades of Israeli oppression. I would argue neither are acceptable of course.
It is also worth noting that some of the specific claims about the Hamas terrorist attack (including beheading babies) are unsubstantiated. While this doesn't make them in any way acceptable, it does cast doubt on this supposed massive difference between the two terrorist organisations involved here.
Israel's attacks have killed about 10 times as many people as Hamas's initial attack. Israel's response has been in no way proportionate or reasonable. As you say, this was a co-ordinated attack by Hamas, and it was probably the best they had. So there's no way more lives have been saved in the long run by killing 10 times as many Palestinians. Hamas don't have that capability. Sure, Israel want to destroy Hamas and its capabilities. But what if there was a terrorist group embedded within their own country? Would Israel kill 10,000 of their own citizens to wipe them out? No. Perhaps they don't value Palestinian lives particularly highly?
This thing about human shields - it does not explain or justify the widespread bombing of Gaza that we've seen. Unless you simply mean that by simply existing in Gaza at the same time as other people in Gaza, Hamas are using people as human shields.
War Crimes is a broad area for discussion.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:38 pm It's not that unpopular. I do recommend you watch those videos with the ambassadors by the way. They are quite long but I think worth the time. Or just start watching them and see how you find them. The differences between them are clear quite early on.
It's also generally accepted that the Israeli authorities are committing war crimes, and that they're serial liars.
Which doubt does it cast? It was obvious from the beginning that the 40 beheaded babies story was fake, from a fake news far right American reporter. So what? There were children in the 1000+ executed civilians. There were many cases of rapes, with the more testimonies and evidence coming in the more is known as how widespread it was. There were hundreds of burnt and decapitated bodies. So that's what you've got? one fake article? What doubt is exactly cast here?Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm
It is also worth noting that some of the specific claims about the Hamas terrorist attack (including beheading babies) are unsubstantiated. While this doesn't make them in any way acceptable, it does cast doubt on this supposed massive difference between the two terrorist organisations involved here.
What the fuck did I just read here? Hamas is the government of Gaza. Not just a terrorist group embedded in. It was attack by the government and army of a foreign entity.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm But what if there was a terrorist group embedded within their own country? Would Israel kill 10,000 of their own citizens to wipe them out? No. Perhaps they don't value Palestinian lives particularly highly?
They don't simply exist in Gaza at the same time as the people of Gaza. I meant that they use civilian structures as their military bases. How do you fight an army that hides its weaponry in hospitals and schools? Who physically prevents its civilians from evacuating an area after being warned that it'll be attacked the following day.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm This thing about human shields - it does not explain or justify the widespread bombing of Gaza that we've seen. Unless you simply mean that by simply existing in Gaza at the same time as other people in Gaza, Hamas are using people as human shields.
The beheaded babies story was one of the headline things that people would keep bringing up, including Marc on this forum. The doubt is about the massive difference between Hamas and the Israeli authorities, and there have been multiple stories of Israel abusing, and even raping Palestinian prisoners, for example. This is not about defending Hamas.Tal Lessner wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 10:50 amWhich doubt does it cast? It was obvious from the beginning that the 40 beheaded babies story was fake, from a fake news far right American reporter. So what? There were children in the 1000+ executed civilians. There were many cases of rapes, with the more testimonies and evidence coming in the more is known as how widespread it was. There were hundreds of burnt and decapitated bodies. So that's what you've got? one fake article? What doubt is exactly cast here?Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm
It is also worth noting that some of the specific claims about the Hamas terrorist attack (including beheading babies) are unsubstantiated. While this doesn't make them in any way acceptable, it does cast doubt on this supposed massive difference between the two terrorist organisations involved here.
1000+ civilians executed - no doubt
widespread rape - no doubt
widespread torture - no doubt
mutilation of bodies - no doubt
It was a hypothetical example - would Israel take such an approach to eliminate terrorists if they were embedded within their own population and try to justify it?What the fuck did I just read here? Hamas is the government of Gaza. Not just a terrorist group embedded in. It was attack by the government and army of a foreign entity.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm But what if there was a terrorist group embedded within their own country? Would Israel kill 10,000 of their own citizens to wipe them out? No. Perhaps they don't value Palestinian lives particularly highly?
OK, but also Israel have made some claims about this that have turned out to be false, including the calendar they claimed was a list of Hamas terrorists. They have also been very selective about what journalists are allowed to see, so we have to take a lot of what they say on trust...They don't simply exist in Gaza at the same time as the people of Gaza. I meant that they use civilian structures as their military bases. How do you fight an army that hides its weaponry in hospitals and schools? Who physically prevents its civilians from evacuating an area after being warned that it'll be attacked the following day.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm This thing about human shields - it does not explain or justify the widespread bombing of Gaza that we've seen. Unless you simply mean that by simply existing in Gaza at the same time as other people in Gaza, Hamas are using people as human shields.
Hamas and the people of Gaza don't just exist at the same place at the same time. But the people of Gaza are used as human shields.
We're talking facts here. What difference between Hamas and the Israeli authorities is it? The number of executed people on 07.10? The fact there was widespread rape and torture? What difference exactly? Which of it is not considered 100% fact?Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 5:49 pm The beheaded babies story was one of the headline things that people would keep bringing up, including Marc on this forum. The doubt is about the massive difference between Hamas and the Israeli authorities, and there have been multiple stories of Israel abusing, and even raping Palestinian prisoners, for example. This is not about defending Hamas.
I get that it was hypothetical, but once again, you seem to ignore the fact that Hamas is not a terrorist organisation embedded within the population, but is, the government & army! So this is still a ridiculous comparison.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm It was a hypothetical example - would Israel take such an approach to eliminate terrorists if they were embedded within their own population and try to justify it?
Israeli occupation of the west bank is undoubtedly a war crime. From trigger happy soldiers to settler's violence (and in fact, the mere existence of settlements is a war crime) and apartheid regime.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm OK, but also Israel have made some claims about this that have turned out to be false, including the calendar they claimed was a list of Hamas terrorists. They have also been very selective about what journalists are allowed to see, so we have to take a lot of what they say on trust...
The bottom line is that regardless of these specifics, it is generally accepted that Israel is committing war crimes in responding in the way they are. Whether they are exactly as bad as Hamas is a side issue. Most people would regard Hamas as a terrorist organisation, and people do not on the whole defend them. The reason it is important to criticise what Israel are doing is that large numbers of people think they are behaving in a perfectly reasonable way. This forum is irrelevant obviously, but world leaders, journalists etc. need to speak out more.
The BBC reports Palestinian prisoners talking of abuse and threats of rape at least. I have read reports of rape, but it's possible the sources aren't reliable. In any case, my initial point about the beheading babies thing was that this was used (successfully on many people) to make out that Hamas were the only bad guys, and the poor innocent Israeli authorities are just defending themselves against these monsters. Both are the bad guys. The point is not really to find an exact equivalence.Tal Lessner wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 6:14 pm
We're talking facts here. What difference between Hamas and the Israeli authorities is it? The number of executed people on 07.10? The fact there was widespread rape and torture? What difference exactly? Which of it is not considered 100% fact?
Also, what stories about raping Palestinian prisoners?
I don't think the point I'm making is ridiculous, but OK, it's not going anywhere.I get that it was hypothetical, but once again, you seem to ignore the fact that Hamas is not a terrorist organisation embedded within the population, but is, the government & army! So this is still a ridiculous comparison.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm It was a hypothetical example - would Israel take such an approach to eliminate terrorists if they were embedded within their own population and try to justify it?
The West Bank is not the only victim of Israel. Gaza has been described as an open air prison. But as for war crimes, the Wikipedia has a list of war crimes that both sides have been accused of.Israeli occupation of the west bank is undoubtedly a war crime. From trigger happy soldiers to settler's violence (and in fact, the mere existence of settlements is a war crime) and apartheid regime.
But this is not the issue here, the issue here is the way the war in Gaza is conducted. And I would like to know what sort of war crimes Israel is committing there. Again, this is a war, and the army that started this war is hiding. How should Israel fight there?
Or should Israel just leave Hamas in peace and wait until its ready for the next round?
There's no discussion if you're resorting to this.Tal Lessner wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:51 pm It's quite a shame that once you choose to identify with one side, you seem to ignore facts, or try to downplay or twist them to match your agenda.
Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 10:06 pmThere's no discussion if you're resorting to this.Tal Lessner wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:51 pm It's quite a shame that once you choose to identify with one side, you seem to ignore facts, or try to downplay or twist them to match your agenda.
I've stayed out of this on here because I'm never going to change your mind, but this sounds dangerously close to making excuses for a proscribed terrorist organisation.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm First of all, Hamas likely exists in the form it does because of the oppression by Israel on the Palestinians for decades. It breeds terrorism. Also far more Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces over the decades than vice versa. Does it make such a difference that Hamas killed a lot of Israeli civilians in one go rather than far more but spread out over a longer period of time?
More an explanation than excuse.Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:35 pmI've stayed out of this on here because I'm never going to change your mind, but this sounds dangerously close to making excuses for a proscribed terrorist organisation.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:31 pm First of all, Hamas likely exists in the form it does because of the oppression by Israel on the Palestinians for decades. It breeds terrorism. Also far more Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces over the decades than vice versa. Does it make such a difference that Hamas killed a lot of Israeli civilians in one go rather than far more but spread out over a longer period of time?
citation neededMarc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:33 am I find it hilarious that Gevs mate Owen Jones being so outspoken as a gay man who would be thrown off the nearest roof in Gaza just for being gay.
Well, given Hamas have no tall buildings left…Fiona T wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:19 amcitation neededMarc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:33 am I find it hilarious that Gevs mate Owen Jones being so outspoken as a gay man who would be thrown off the nearest roof in Gaza just for being gay.
Well yeah there is that.Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 5:11 pmWell, given Hamas have no tall buildings left…Fiona T wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:19 amcitation neededMarc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:33 am I find it hilarious that Gevs mate Owen Jones being so outspoken as a gay man who would be thrown off the nearest roof in Gaza just for being gay.
Automatic driving features aren't really related to the concept of electric cars in general though. I think it's also generally accepted that partial automation is the most dangerous option, because when people have to suddenly take over, they're not able to immediately be on the ball.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:53 pm Cop 28.
Hopefully in a year or two Electric cars will be more viable, by which I mean every main petrol station will have fast charging ports, the cost of Buying Electric cars will fall
Mind you this doesn't help
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67693935
They self-destruct over 20 or 30mph? Interesting option.As a knock on, Electric bikes wil be destructed so you can go at 20 or 30 mph tmwith the caveat that they are insured with number plates mot etd, but the cost of insurance etc would be far less than cars and petrol bikes.
Doh, I meant derestrictedGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 7:11 pmAutomatic driving features aren't really related to the concept of electric cars in general though. I think it's also generally accepted that partial automation is the most dangerous option, because when people have to suddenly take over, they're not able to immediately be on the ball.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:53 pm Cop 28.
Hopefully in a year or two Electric cars will be more viable, by which I mean every main petrol station will have fast charging ports, the cost of Buying Electric cars will fall
Mind you this doesn't help
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67693935
They self-destruct over 20 or 30mph? Interesting option.As a knock on, Electric bikes wil be destructed so you can go at 20 or 30 mph tmwith the caveat that they are insured with number plates mot etd, but the cost of insurance etc would be far less than cars and petrol bikes.
There is a YouTube clip with Rory Stewart talking about the history of Israel, it's pretty factual. (not party political)Fiona T wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 2:47 pm Bit of history here Andres
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-44124396
About the Zionism bit, it's a pointless meaningless term. It's an idea that was formed in the late 19th century, and became pointless once Israel was formed.Andres Sanchez wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:36 am what is the meaning of being a Zionist and why should the war that's currently happening against Palestine sparking a lot a heated debate?
With simple quick research I've received the idea that Zionism is the idea of the Jewish people wanting to have their own nation
Zionism, yes, is the belief of a Jewish nation. No more, no less. Pro-Palestine people like to claim being "anti-Zionist" is not antisemitic, but I have always argued it is insofar as you are not calling for the deconstruction of any Muslim country, Pakistan in particular as it was formed in very similar circumstances to Israel.Andres Sanchez wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:36 am Okay I very much wanna be educated a bit here especially in a space here FOR anything political.
As someone that knows nothing about Judaism other than having friends that are in that religion and a small grasp on what Chanukah is (or however you prefer spelling it) along with a few other Jewish holidays, what is the meaning of being a Zionist and why should the war that's currently happening against Palestine sparking a lot a heated debate?
With simple quick research I've received the idea that Zionism is the idea of the Jewish people wanting to have their own nation, but that's all I'm able to get from that. Other than that I am absolutely lost in what is going on other than that there's a war that's been going on for a while and now is the boiling point of it.
You've only got to look at the 6 day war to see that you don't fuck with Israel Gaza and the West Bank was taken as a result so they could make a fortress around Israel and currently the only way to attack Israel is with terrorist activities az they have the best air defence in the world.Mark James wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 3:30 am I am at that stage where I'm like, just show the fucking videos then. Or, if they are as atrocious as people say, at least describe what happens in them. I guarantee nothing anyone could say would justify the current Israeli response, of which I've actually seen videos of. Even if it was worse than what I have seen happening in Gaza, (including stuff that's happened before October 7), I would still call for a ceasefire. Anyone who asks the question "Are Israel going about it in the right way?" and answers with "Possibly not", is an odious cretin.
Well, it's setting up a religious state, and religion =/= race for starters, so it's not racist to criticise that. Setting up a state on religious grounds is not a good idea (not that it would be a good idea to have a state for a certain race either). It applies to any country that has done it. It's just that Israel is in the news more so it naturally gets discussed.Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:06 am
Zionism, yes, is the belief of a Jewish nation. No more, no less. Pro-Palestine people like to claim being "anti-Zionist" is not antisemitic, but I have always argued it is insofar as you are not calling for the deconstruction of any Muslim country, Pakistan in particular as it was formed in very similar circumstances to Israel.
I'm not going to respond in the same way as Mark, but this is a very clear understatement - "Possibly not". Plus just saying that they have the right to respond without saying anything more is very much Tory party line (and Labour actually) and doesn't really add to the discussion.So do Israel have a right to respond? 100% yes, and I will not shy away from that, nor apologise for it? Are Israel going about it in the right way? Possibly not.
Why do you think that? And left-wing - OK.Are the BBC, Sky, and other left-wing media complicit in the huge rise in antisemitism in recent years? Unquestionably.
I'm not going to try to understand exactly what was going through the heads of the Hamas nutters, but you could equally ask what Israel was doing suppressing Palestinians for decades. Did they not expect this sort of thing?Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:27 am Beyond Killing Jews I'm not sure what Hamas hoped to achieve by all this beyond stirring shit up so there could never be a lasting peace in the middle East and creating another global war
Considering South Africa's history in the lady 2 or 3 centuries, one expects it to be laughed at.samir pilica wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:13 pm What are the prospects of the South Africans succeeding at the ICJ? Does accusing someone of “genocidal acts” bear the same legal weight as accusing them of an outright genocide?
I'm sure most South Africans are aware of the history of their country. I don't think it somehow disqualifies them from criticising what another country is doing now. I don't think those in power now were responsible for Apartheid in the past.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 12:57 pmConsidering South Africa's history in the lady 2 or 3 centuries, one expects it to be laughed at.samir pilica wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:13 pm What are the prospects of the South Africans succeeding at the ICJ? Does accusing someone of “genocidal acts” bear the same legal weight as accusing them of an outright genocide?
Pots and Kettles etc
This particular spat might not be the most important issue, but the idea that a public figure who criticises an elected politician should face criminal sanction, or even be restricted in their use of a social media platform, seems bizarre to say the least.Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 11:59 pm The threats Johnny and his wife have received on the back of her abuse, and no action taken against Vorderman, is ridiculous.
Yeah haven't seen the Mercer stuff. To clarify, my 'shocking' comment was the content - the amount of money that has just disappeared, the manipulation of truth (lies) and general shit. I have a particular interest in Doug Barrowman who promoted contractor loan schemes (tax avoidance) that have landed lots of people with huge amount of debts to HMRC - the aggressive 'loan charge' has resulted in at least 10 related suicides from (admittedly somewhat naive) people who believed the tax avoidance arrangement he and his like was selling them was legit, although that isn't the content of this video. A thoroughly greedy nasty self-serving couple tho.Phil H wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 12:49 pmThis particular spat might not be the most important issue, but the idea that a public figure who criticises an elected politician should face criminal sanction, or even be restricted in their use of a social media platform, seems bizarre to say the least.Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 11:59 pm The threats Johnny and his wife have received on the back of her abuse, and no action taken against Vorderman, is ridiculous.
The only thing I've seen from Vorderman which could, at a stretch, qualify as "abuse" of the Mercers were her comments about them not having degrees - which I agree were dickish, but thankfully for many of us, it's not a crime (or, usually, a website ban offence) to be dickish.
This is a really good post by the way. It's not about having some argument where you're trying to get the better of someone. This is real people and real lives. And the Netanyahu regime has been doing all this with the support of the US and UK.Andy Wilson wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 8:45 am There have been over 10,000 children killed in this genocide since October. I have no ties to Palestine other than it is inhabited by human beings, but i can’t function as a normal human being while this continues. It’s affecting me pretty badly. I attend the weekly solidarity protests and an left in tears every week.
Your country forbids you from holding their banner in solidarity and anyone who speaks up is viewed as a terrorist supporter. Our own darling Rachel Riley continues her tiresome crusade, using support for Palestine as more ‘evidence’ of anti semitism. She hammered Corbyn and you guys ended up with Brexit. Well done
The Palestinians have been living in an apartheid state and it doesn’t surprise me that they are trying to fight for their rights against, let’s remember, a very far right wing Israeli regime.
Just how though. How are we here? How can the UK be so apathetic to this? Shame on you if you can’t sympathise with the people of Palestine and shame on you if you support this genocide.
They’re wiping out this nation. This won’t ever go away. The Israeli government is never going to be forgiven and this will not be good for the people of Israel. They will be resented for a long time.
I’m gonna go weep for a while now or maybe vomit. I ask you guys who are following the anti Palestine narrative to try and see sense here.
What Hamas did is inexcusable and unjustifiable. Please don't legitimise it.Andy Wilson wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 5:12 pm
This is not a war. The Palestinians resorted to terrorism as a way of resisting a land grab.
OK, so for context:Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:49 am https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/67807719
This is ridiculous, there is no advantage in pool
Well, I think this is really just an argument for not having separate male and female tournaments.A transgender pool champion says she received "vile" and "horrific" abuse online after her opponent refused to play her in a final.
Pinches said she did it out of "fairness", claiming transgender women have a competitive advantage.
Haynes disagrees with Pinches' stance and says the sport's authorities agree with her (Haynes).
"The world governing body.... looked into this, and couldn't find any evidence," Haynes told BBC Sport Wales.
"They didn't agree that males have an inherent advantage over females (in cue sports)."
I think if those born as men have an unfair advantage in a sport that is not strength or speed related then all sports and games are fair game for this attitude.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 6:23 pmOK, so for context:Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:49 am https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/67807719
This is ridiculous, there is no advantage in pool
Well, I think this is really just an argument for not having separate male and female tournaments.A transgender pool champion says she received "vile" and "horrific" abuse online after her opponent refused to play her in a final.
Pinches said she did it out of "fairness", claiming transgender women have a competitive advantage.
Haynes disagrees with Pinches' stance and says the sport's authorities agree with her (Haynes).
"The world governing body.... looked into this, and couldn't find any evidence," Haynes told BBC Sport Wales.
"They didn't agree that males have an inherent advantage over females (in cue sports)."
Its not a level playing field in the same way that there are less established composers, artists and in enters that were women.Jon O'Neill wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 9:04 pm If there's no advantage, then why is the women's #1 ranked #118 in the open rankings?
The answer to this question is the reason why there's a protected category, regardless of size, strength, speed and power advantages.
Yes. That is the answer.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:45 amIts not a level playing field in the same way that there are less established composers, artists and in enters that were women.Jon O'Neill wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 9:04 pm If there's no advantage, then why is the women's #1 ranked #118 in the open rankings?
The answer to this question is the reason why there's a protected category, regardless of size, strength, speed and power advantages.
How many Women play pool compared to men?