Politics in General

[Callum Todd]

https://unherd.com/2022/07/kemi-badenoc ... he-tories/

[Ian Volante]

A tax cut would have been better than the energy bills rebate and NI hike hits the wrong audience at the wrong time.

This reads oddly to me. It gives me the impression that you'd prefer a tax cut as a performative measure rather than a rebate that has more chance of reaching the people who need it most (not that I'm saying the rebate was the best way of doing it).

My point being that a large portion of people being hammered by energy bills don't pay income tax in the first place therefore they can't be helped by a tax cut. You may have been referring to VAT? A large cut here would help, but only marginally.

You could still have a giveaway for non-taxpayers (ie those earning under £12,500) but we have taxed more AND spent more, which is Labour’s solution. Cut out the middle man here. We have taken money away in NI hikes and given it back to them in a state handout. That’s the Leftie solution.

Upon further reflection, I’m #PM4PM

Still don't see where this helps people who aren't paying income tax, unless you're actually proponing the 'leftie' solution.

[Jack Neal]

I am sad that Boris has gone although it was the right time for him to stand down.

As a voter in this election, brief views on each of the leadership candidates:

Kemi Badenoch:

“I’m the Prime Minister and I’m offended by unisex / gender neutral toilets” is bonkers. I’m not overly keen on net zero either but pledging to abolish it is a golden ticket for Labour and Greens and puts us on the wrong side of history.

Suella Braverman:

When you’ve been outschooled by Sebastian Vettel on Question Time your comms cannot possibly lead us into a General Election. You’re also nuts on trans issues and the pink press will be smearing us for another 50 years if you’re elected.

Jeremy Hunt:

More bitter than most lagers, what does he actually stand for these days? My 2019 criticism of “Theresa May in trousers” still stands and his positions on lockdowns are frightening. They should be a last resort, not a first resort.

Penny Morduant:

The timing feels strange and it does feel a little early for her. However, her policy positions appear to be the most sound although I am concerned about her U-turn on trans issues and some dirt that was given to me today about her (but it is fairly minor).

Rishi Sunak:

Have lost a lot of respect for him. Boris gave him almost complete autonomy over economic policy and we have not been Right enough. A tax cut would have been better than the energy bills rebate and NI hike hits the wrong audience at the wrong time.

Liz Truss:

Does she have the gravitas to be PM? Her cheese speech still lingers in my memory and she is ridiculous gaffe-prone but without the charm that Boris had for him to get away with it. Mogg/Dorries endorsement awfully cynical too.

Tom Tugendhat:

Too critical of Boris before Partygate although I like his tough stance on China and his plans to cut taxes.

Nadhim Zahawi:

Again, trans issues are the red flag here. An S28-style policy would be nuts and we would be failing to learn from our mistakes as a party. We cannot set one group against the other unnecessarily.

Summary: probably Mordaunt, Truss, or Tugendhat for me. But absolutely not the others.

Hi Rhys,

As a fellow member of the conservative and unionist party i am very open about the fact that in the members vote i, like you, will be voting for Liz Truss:

1) Rishi is an absolute snob. The dodgy stuff with his wife was out of order and he should have resigned then. My first choice would have been Tom Tugendhat (despite point 2) as i would have preffered a clean break from Boris for now, but i have met Liz a number of times (due to point 2) and she she strikes me as a generally lovely person who genuinely cares about the people.
2) She's my MP and i'm one of her constituents that elected her.

Jack

[Marc Meakin]

She won 3 elections because of a lack of credible opposition.
Foot and Kinnock were no palatable to the average SU. Reader and like it or not the media did and to a lesser extent now still does have a huge say in who runs the country.
Its no coincidence that Tory lite Tony Blair curried favour with Murdoch to ensure he got backing.
As for the miners strike, Arthur Scargill was the joke not Callahan, admittedly the unions had Labour in their pocket back then.
Thatcher had a plan to destroy the unions power regardless of how it affected the country pitting family against family.
She privatised everything she could making everyone potential share owners, allowed tenants to buy council homes, thus creating millions of new tory voters.
No thought was put into the future of social housing.
Oh and The Falklands conflict was a political vote winner with little regard to human life and strategy.

History is indeed written by the victors but some people that actually lived through it are still alive to question some of the shit that some people spout.
In 1979 there was around a million and a half unemployed, by the mid eighties there were 3 million +

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-22070491

[Jack Neal]

Using this poll me and my partner decided to sit down and analyse the results scaled to the 2019 election: https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com ... july-2022/

If an election was held today the according to the said poll we'd be way behind labour!

Seats 2019 Seat per vote percentage 2019 Predicted Seats
Labour 202 6 272
Tory 365 8 308
Lib Dem 11 1 14
SNP 48 12 50
Green 1 0.33 2
Other N/A N/A 4
650

I blame bodgejob Boris!

[Gavin Chipper]

So the obvious question then. Was this staged to make Liz Truss look like the sympathetic caring candidate?

[Marc Meakin]

So the obvious question then. Was this staged to make Liz Truss look like the sympathetic caring candidate?

She looked more scared than sympathetic

[Callum Todd]

So the obvious question then. Was this staged to make Liz Truss look like the sympathetic caring candidate?

She looked more scared than sympathetic

Yeah if that was the intention, it failed.

[Gavin Chipper]

In other news, America is continuing in its self-appointed role as the world's police force, judge, jury and executioner with the assassination of Ayman al-Zawahiri, the head of al-Qaeda. It's completely pointless anyway. Getting rid of one individual does nothing to eliminate the ideology, and he can be easily replaced. It's ridiculous they don't get more stick for this.

[Gavin Chipper]

When did TikTok become "acceptable"? When it was first getting big, there was a lot of controversy abut it being this scary Chinese product that the Chinese government were presumably using to spy on everyone. Now it's everywhere, and you get the BBC going on about these viral TikTok videos with no reference to what they used to say about it.

The UK Parliament has closed its account on the Chinese government website, also known as TikTok. Start with a c4c account, and expand from there. Don't go straight in with such a hardcore site.

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

When did TikTok become "acceptable"? When it was first getting big, there was a lot of controversy abut it being this scary Chinese product that the Chinese government were presumably using to spy on everyone.

Probably because most people don't care about bullshit racist scaremongering?

[Gavin Chipper]

When did TikTok become "acceptable"? When it was first getting big, there was a lot of controversy abut it being this scary Chinese product that the Chinese government were presumably using to spy on everyone.

Probably because most people don't care about bullshit racist scaremongering?

Maybe but it doesn't explain the flip-flopping narrative in the media.

"Don't use TikTok because the Chinese government will use it to take over your brain!"

Then the next day:

"Ooh, look at these fluffy kittens on TikTok."

[Callum Todd]

Yeah the public perception of TikTok seemed to shift dramatically overnight, with no obvious transition or explanation why.

[Mark James]

Because it makes money.

[Rhys Benjamin]

This reads oddly to me. It gives me the impression that you'd prefer a tax cut as a performative measure rather than a rebate that has more chance of reaching the people who need it most (not that I'm saying the rebate was the best way of doing it).

My point being that a large portion of people being hammered by energy bills don't pay income tax in the first place therefore they can't be helped by a tax cut. You may have been referring to VAT? A large cut here would help, but only marginally.

You could still have a giveaway for non-taxpayers (ie those earning under £12,500) but we have taxed more AND spent more, which is Labour’s solution. Cut out the middle man here. We have taken money away in NI hikes and given it back to them in a state handout. That’s the Leftie solution.

Upon further reflection, I’m #PM4PM

Still don't see where this helps people who aren't paying income tax, unless you're actually proponing the 'leftie' solution.

I’m not talking about those people. They’re already being given more than the £550 most people are getting, as the Government is providing an extra £650 to those on low incomes and benefits.

I’m talking about the flat rate of £400 for everyone and the £150 for most people. Take 2p off the base rate of income tax for the 22-23 financial year and reverse the NI increase. That’s a better way of supporting people.

(I personally would simplify the tax system by abolishing NI and Council Tax and merging them into income tax. But that’s another story.)

[Fiona T]

(I personally would simplify the tax system by abolishing NI and Council Tax and merging them into income tax. But that’s another story.)

Absolutely - but will never happen or people would suddenly realise just how much tax they are paying - employers NI is invisible to most employees

[Ian Volante]

I’m talking about the flat rate of £400 for everyone and the £150 for most people. Take 2p off the base rate of income tax for the 22-23 financial year and reverse the NI increase. That’s a better way of supporting people.

(I personally would simplify the tax system by abolishing NI and Council Tax and merging them into income tax. But that’s another story.)

I've some sympathy with such ideas, although before stuffing up finances by dropping income tax, I'd be very tempted to bump up corporation tax and/or introduce a Tobin tax or similar. A lot of the money flows, such as dividends, have it too easy and end up taken away from the areas where they were generated, much as relevant companies may protest about their levels of investment.

As for combining taxes, NI, yes. Council tax, not sure. I don't like the additional centralisation implied by such a move.

[Gavin Chipper]

I would also combine income tax and income tax II (sometimes referred to as National Insurance). I would actually combine council tax as well. There is the thing Ian said about centralisation, but I'm not sure I'm too bothered about that. I don't think there's too much leeway in what councils can charge. It's not like one you pay some amount in one council district and double that in an adjacent one or anything. I think it generally makes more sense to simplifiy the tax system.

I'd combine TV licence as well, so people don't need to buy an actual licence. It's a pretty mental system when you actually think about it. But being against the TV licence is generally seen as a right wing thing so it wouldn't normally get questioned by most of the lefties that I and probably most of you would normally encounter. However, it depends what direction you want it to go in. I'd get rid of in but move it into taxation, whereas the righties would make the BBC a subscription service or something along those lines.

[David Williams]

I suspect the reason that income tax and national insurance have never been combined is that however you do it, it's a massive vote loser. Simply increase the basic rate, and lose the vote of every pensioner in the country? Or only increase the basic rate for the working population, and bring it home to them that the richest age group in society pays so little tax? At the moment at least there is some (largely fictitious) logic that national insurance pays for your pension, and council tax pays for local services. I can imagine that many politicians have contemplated this and shied away very quickly.

[Rhys Benjamin]

You could definitely sell the idea, emphasising “look how much tax you pay, it’s not fair, tax is theft, etc”.

Council tax was born out of the poll tax debacle, but the poll tax itself was part of a wider move to local government funding. It was meant to make local government more accountable as well-run councils would charge less (in Wandsworth in 1991 they charged £0). My fundamental objection to both the Community Charge and Council Tax is its postcode lottery element. Council tax has to go.

Out of your pay packet you will pay income tax, national insurance, and council tax. Even those on middle incomes such as the UK median of £26,000 will end up paying 25% of their income in direct taxation alone.

Without having the treasury in front of me, abolishing these taxes and replacing them with ONE tax payment is much better.

[David Williams]

If we're reforming the tax system, I've never understood why there's so much opposition to inheritance tax. Nowadays you're probably in your sixties when your parents die, mortgage paid off, kids off your hands. If there's ever a time in your life when you can afford to pay some tax it's on an inheritance when you're 60. Yet a married couple can leave £1 million to their children tax free. Only 4% of estates actually pay inheritance tax. Why isn't there a massive groundswell in favour of increasing it?

There's a complaint that you're being taxed a second time on your money, which makes no sense. Most of that money will be from a massive profit on your house, which isn't taxed at all. And people happily pay VAT in the afternoon on money that's had PAYE and NI deducted from it in the morning - two taxes in a single day.

[Gavin Chipper]

I don't think I would have given in to taking a drug test just because someone filmed me partying. Anyone else?

[Marc Meakin]

I don't think I would have given in to taking a drug test just because someone filmed me partying. Anyone else?

I wouldn't care I've never taken an illegal drug in my life

[Callum Todd]

I don't think I would have given in to taking a drug test just because someone filmed me partying. Anyone else?

No, probably not. Don't buy the excuse of 'she may not be in a fit state to make a momentary decision' thing either. Do no world leaders drink alcohol?

[Gavin Chipper]

I don't think I would have given in to taking a drug test just because someone filmed me partying. Anyone else?

No, probably not. Don't buy the excuse of 'she may not be in a fit state to make a momentary decision' thing either. Do no world leaders drink alcohol?

Well Boris Johnson is never in a fit state to make a decision, momentary or otherwise. Plus deputies exist and it's quite rare for a politician to suddenly have to act.

[Matt Morrison]

I don't think I would have given in to taking a drug test just because someone filmed me partying. Anyone else?

I think I might have been swayed by whether or not I had anything to hide. Even if you know it's principally wrong I might be tempted to agree to it if I hadn't taken any drugs just to keep people off my back in the hope that next time someone films me and I have taken three ecstacies and a cocaine that I might get away with it.

[Gavin Chipper]

I don't think I would have given in to taking a drug test just because someone filmed me partying. Anyone else?

I think I might have been swayed by whether or not I had anything to hide. Even if you know it's principally wrong I might be tempted to agree to it if I hadn't taken any drugs just to keep people off my back in the hope that next time someone films me and I have taken three ecstacies and a cocaine that I might get away with it.

I don't know. I mean, it might have the opposite effect. If you're "caught" partying another time, they might expect you to take a test again as it's the norm now. Also, it gives some credence to the view that her actions were in some way unacceptable. If she'd been filmed playing Scrabble, there wouldn't have been any calls for her to take a drugs test so why here?

[Phil H]

Irvine Welsh on Labour's 33-point YouGov poll lead:

"The lesson from Johnson to Truss is: if you're going to have a greedy corrupt moron fuck the country into oblivion, make sure it's (a) a man and (b) entertaining rather than dull."

[Marc Meakin]

Liz Truss.
So bad I almost miss Boris.
45% tax threshold removed.
Truss defends it on National TV and says it will stay,
Less than 24 hours later Kwasi backs down.
All this predicted by the strangely unelectable Rishi Sunak.

[Marc Meakin]

From Lib Dem to BDSM.
The Liz Truss story goes on and on

https://wegotthiscovered.com/celebritie ... onspiracy/

[Rhys Benjamin]

The world's worst journalist at it again.

He's even acknowledged he's wrong, but left the original, fake news, tweet up...

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/15809 ... XX0n1_lMsQ

[Elliott Mellor]

The world's worst journalist at it again.

He's even acknowledged he's wrong, but left the original, fake news, tweet up...

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/15809 ... XX0n1_lMsQ

Yeah, a journalist who tells lies should be removed from the public eye and never be allowed to gain a position of responsibility.

[Callum Todd]

Embarrassing from Peston.

[Gavin Chipper]

It is embarrassing because he should know in his job but Number 10 also deserves for people to mock their weird system that defies any usual logic and convention. It would have been less embarrassing for Peston if he'd doubled down.

[Rhys Benjamin]

I don’t know whether I’m joking any more when I post this.

https://twitter.com/rhysbenjamin/status ... AcZjGFR89Q

[Marc Meakin]

I don’t know whether I’m joking any more when I post this.

https://twitter.com/rhysbenjamin/status ... AcZjGFR89Q

What would we prefer a stable government like the conservatives or chaos like labour David Cameron 2018

[Marc Meakin]

OK I'm back on the correct thread ( with thanks to my personal Microsoft paper clip)
Do you think Liz Truss will last until Christmas.
I mean she should last until Halloween
I'm not even sure how the tory party can oust her beyond getting a general election in the bargain
Given that Liz Truss has no confidence in herself .
She should go before Boris decides he should step in
I know he is retiring as an MP but Charles Walker said all that needed to be said

[Rhys Benjamin]

We must retreat to go forward.

Back Boris.

[Gavin Chipper]

We must retreat to go forward.

Back Boris.

Why not go further and dig up Thatcher?

[Callum Todd]

We must retreat to go forward.

Back Boris.

Why not go further and dig up Thatcher?

Or just use a hologram of her. You know, like ABBA.

[Marc Meakin]

We must retreat to go forward.

Back Boris.

Why not go further and dig up Thatcher?

Further still and dig up Churchill

[Fiona T]

We must retreat to go forward.

Back Boris.

Genuine question Rhys - what are the values of the Tory party? Do they reflect your own values? Do you believe Boris shares those values?

[Gavin Chipper]

I just found out that ex-PMs are allowed to claim up to £115,000 per year indefinitely. The amount of BS expenses and stuff politicians are alowed to claim beggars belief. It's outrageous.

[Marc Meakin]

I just found out that ex-PMs are allowed to claim up to £115,000 per year indefinitely. The amount of BS expenses and stuff politicians are alowed to claim beggars belief. It's outrageous.

So that's 4 ex Tory PMs already since 2016

[Gavin Chipper]

I just found out that ex-PMs are allowed to claim up to £115,000 per year indefinitely. The amount of BS expenses and stuff politicians are alowed to claim beggars belief. It's outrageous.

So that's 4 ex Tory PMs already since 2016

Yep!

By the way, a lot of people have short memories when it comes to politicians, so it's worth reminding people sometimes. I'm not talking about Boris Johnson, as there's no excuse for forgetting what a shambles of a man he is. But Jeremy Hunt is now viewed as some sort of "safe pair of hands" as the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Well, this video might remind you of a few things about him.

[Marc Meakin]

I just found out that ex-PMs are allowed to claim up to £115,000 per year indefinitely. The amount of BS expenses and stuff politicians are alowed to claim beggars belief. It's outrageous.

So that's 4 ex Tory PMs already since 2016

Yep!

By the way, a lot of people have short memories when it comes to politicians, so it's worth reminding people sometimes. I'm not talking about Boris Johnson, as there's no excuse for forgetting what a shambles of a man he is. But Jeremy Hunt is now viewed as some sort of "safe pair of hands" as the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Well, this video might remind you of a few things about him.

He was awful as Health Minister

[Marc Meakin]

We must retreat to go forward.

Back Boris.

If Boris Johnson is the answer, then you must have misunderstood the question

[Rhys Benjamin]

The BBC aren’t even trying to hide their bias any more. I don’t ever want to hear that Boris was given a fair time of it. https://twitter.com/nj_timothy/status/1 ... eC41NlkJsg

[Gavin Chipper]

The BBC aren’t even trying to hide their bias any more. I don’t ever want to hear that Boris was given a fair time of it. https://twitter.com/nj_timothy/status/1 ... eC41NlkJsg

There's no context there. And this is just one person. Not "The BBC".

Anyway, a fair time of it when? He was PM for quite a while before all his lying and cheating caught up with him. You should not be trying to defend this man. It reflects badly on anyone doing so.

[Elliott Mellor]

The BBC aren’t even trying to hide their bias any more. I don’t ever want to hear that Boris was given a fair time of it. https://twitter.com/nj_timothy/status/1 ... eC41NlkJsg

Inasmuch as I'm generally happy to accept that people are going to have different political leanings to my own, I really can't understand how you can blithely defend this charlatan (or indeed the Conservative Party).

How about the public being given a fair chance to have their say on who runs the country, instead of an extremely small number of people? The tories are on their third leader now in less than a year. They've gone through a prime minister who broke rules that he set, a deputy chief whip with a history of sexual misconduct (which was known when, yes, Boris appointed him!), a chancellor who crashed the economy, and their health minister has admitted to sharing prescriptions - and that's really just scratching the surface.

Now, everyone makes mistakes, but make a few too many mistakes of this magnitude and you are quite clearly unsuitable for office.

My grandad was a tory for all of his life - that guy never voted for anyone else in any election - local or general, but in the last election he voted in before he died, he refused to vote Conservative, and made it very clear that the sleaze and incompetence of their leader Boris Johnson was the reason. When you're so bad that you lose the trust of members of over sixty years, you're pretty fucking bad.

[Fiona T]

I agree that the reporting shown is pretty bad, and I'd expect complaints to be upheld.

But to reiterate my previous questions - what values do you personally believe to be important? What are the values of the conservative party? Does Boris lead by example when considering those values?

[Rhys Benjamin]

Bob, my boss, and 1922 committee member, so therefore neutral, has told the press that Boris got 100.

So maybe all the “journalists” who said he was lying about it should apologise to him?

[Elliott Mellor]

Bob, my boss, and 1922 committee member, so therefore neutral, has told the press that Boris got 100.

So maybe all the “journalists” who said he was lying about it should apologise to him?

Perhaps if you could answer the questions above this post, we could then debate this.

[Marc Meakin]

Bob, my boss, and 1922 committee member, so therefore neutral, has told the press that Boris got 100.

So maybe all the “journalists” who said he was lying about it should apologise to him?

That tells me that Boris didn't want to be PM as in a 2 horse race the Tory Party Members would have voted him in

[Marc Meakin]

The Tory party in sensible action shock.
Showing unity and picking the right person for the job
From the shortest serving Prime Minister to one of the shortest, serving (male) Prime Minister.
The shortest since Winston Churchill in fact.
I think he can handle the poisoned chalice until the next election

[Gavin Chipper]

Martine Croxall is being investigated over what happened.

Obviously she didn't say what she was gleeful about, although some might say it was clearly Johnson pulling out. But sure, investigate it, but in the general scheme of things it's a slap on the wrist. Krishnan Guru-Murthy got suspended for calling Steve Baker MP a cunt (off air) the other day. Again, I don't think it's worth getting too exicted about though.

I'm not sure I get the relevance of this bit though:

She was then seen asking her guests: "Can we even show you the front pages just yet, have they arrived? No they haven't arrived. It's all a little bit, you know, lastminute.com isn't it? Because all the front pages were probably out of date by the time we received them."

[Marc Meakin]

Martine Croxall is being investigated over what happened.

Obviously she didn't say what she was gleeful about, although some might say it was clearly Johnson pulling out. But sure, investigate it, but in the general scheme of things it's a slap on the wrist. Krishnan Guru-Murthy got suspended for calling Steve Baker MP a cunt (off air) the other day. Again, I don't think it's worth getting too exicted about though.

I'm not sure I get the relevance of this bit though:

She was then seen asking her guests: "Can we even show you the front pages just yet, have they arrived? No they haven't arrived. It's all a little bit, you know, lastminute.com isn't it? Because all the front pages were probably out of date by the time we received them."

Johnson, pulling out, thats a first

[Rhys Benjamin]

I agree that the reporting shown is pretty bad, and I'd expect complaints to be upheld.

But to reiterate my previous questions - what values do you personally believe to be important? What are the values of the conservative party? Does Boris lead by example when considering those values?

Boris Johnson remains our biggest electoral asset since Margaret Thatcher. Our values are about strong leadership, economic liberalism, and unionism. Boris is on the left of the party, but I think he embodies all of those.

[Gavin Chipper]

I agree that the reporting shown is pretty bad, and I'd expect complaints to be upheld.

But to reiterate my previous questions - what values do you personally believe to be important? What are the values of the conservative party? Does Boris lead by example when considering those values?

Boris Johnson remains our biggest electoral asset since Margaret Thatcher. Our values are about strong leadership, economic liberalism, and unionism. Boris is on the left of the party, but I think he embodies all of those.

Johnson might have been an electoral asset in the past - not sure about now. But to be clear, if he was an asset it's because people were fooled by his ridiculous bumbling persona, not because he was in any way good.

Plus I'm not sure what it really means to be on the left or right of the party if your "values" are simply what you think will get you elected.

[Marc Meakin]

Boris Johnson wrote a compelling article on why we should remain in the EU and a few days later was spearheading the Brexit campaign.
Boris Johnson puts himself first.
The only reason he would have pulled out of the leadership election is because the country will get a lot worse before it gets better and when Rishi loses the next General election he will come out of the wilderness.
He wants to be liked again and even I will admit he is likeable in spite of being both a liar and a liability since the pandemic