Cryptic Crosswords

[David O'Donnell]

As some most of you will know Michael MacDonald-Cooper is a professional cryptic crossword compiler and has done me the courtesy of sending a few clues that he had written in the past. I am not sure if any of you are in to that sort of thing but thought I would share the clues with you regardless.

The wife's mother (6)

Ill-gotten gains? (8,7)

Solved by Horatius, given two pairs of hands? (6,7)

I am a very poor solver but I did try and construct my own crossword just as an exercise in futility and also because I have trouble sleeping. It's rather a difficult thing to do! I couldn't make the clues interlink and had to resort to an online crossword generator to house the clues which made a rather strange looking crossword (there isn't a lot of interlinking which probably makes it harder) and restricted me to 15 clues. I did consider sending this to Michael but I suspect this would be a rather tedious undertaking for him (kinda like sending one of my chess games to Kasparov!)

Here's my paltry effort

[M. George Quinn]

I wrote a few cryptic crosswords for my uni newspaper. The first one was a bit of a shambles but I managed to give the next one rotational symmetry and it looked quite good. (No huge expanses of black ink either). I'd like to hear more about MiMaCo's techniques for creating them. I started with the words then made up the clues. I'm sure that must be the usual way of doing things.

I find it somewhat easier to write clues than solve them.

I used to do the Times every day and after a month or so wasn't too bad at it. Nowadays, I stare at the thing for an hour and get about 3. Balls.

I can't get any of those clues yet but rest assured I'll waste the next hour of my sad, little life trying.

George

[Joseph Bolas]

I can't really say I am a fan of solving crosswords, but I do watch Merv Griffin's Crosswords on YouTube when they get uploaded on there. I like the look of American Crosswords better because the words are more intertwined than the UK Crossword which is a very hard thing to do.

I too would like to know the techniques to creating/solving cryptic crosswords/clues. I could probably only solve the clues, when I know that there is a anagram in the clue. I did see this video which talks a bit about creating a crossword.

[David O'Donnell]

I wrote a few cryptic crosswords for my uni newspaper. The first one was a bit of a shambles but I managed to give the next one rotational symmetry and it looked quite good. (No huge expanses of black ink either). I'd like to hear more about MiMaCo's techniques for creating them. I started with the words then made up the clues. I'm sure that must be the usual way of doing things.

I find it somewhat easier to write clues than solve them.

I used to do the Times every day and after a month or so wasn't too bad at it. Nowadays, I stare at the thing for an hour and get about 3. Balls.

I can't get any of those clues yet but rest assured I'll waste the next hour of my sad, little life trying.

George

I tried to think of the play on words first then derive the answer to the clue. For instance Michael's clue of Ill-gotten gains (8,7) which finds a cryptic meaning from a well known phrase made me think of other phrases that could have a cryptic meaning like:

Not for the faint-hearted? (4,7)

I was going to post the answer I had in mind for this but will leave it in case you want to have a crack at it. I am not sure if it is easier to set clues than to solve them because there is a danger that you have a clue that has more than adequate answer - if you set a crossword with the hint of an ambiguous clue you'd get lynched by the solving community.

[M. George Quinn]

Ha! I still haven't got any of Michael's clues but have finished David's crossword.

I thought "Grounds for flogging" was quite interesting because it was sort of twice removed from the definition. Does that make sense?

Anyhow, meant to be working. I'll be back later to try again.

George

[Ben Pugh]

The only ones I can do in these crosswords are with clues involving royalty, the only technique I know is that stuff about kings hints there is an R somewhere.

[David O'Donnell]

Ha! I still haven't got any of Michael's clues but have finished David's crossword.

I thought "Grounds for flogging" was quite interesting because it was sort of twice removed from the definition. Does that make sense?

Anyhow, meant to be working. I'll be back later to try again.

George

You finished mine? Nice one, that means the clues must have made a little sense.

[Michael Wallace]

I've been getting gradually better at cryptic crosswords since my dad introduced me to them a few years ago. My main problem now is often not having the old school vocabulary/general knowledge that's often required (I often find crosswords with phrases that I've never heard of because they were only regularly used about 30 years ago). I keep meaning to start setting my own, but university often gets in the way, and whilst I do quite like the idea of getting paid to set crosswords, I don't think I have the time/cleverness to actually manage it (how do you get a job as a crossword setter, anyway?!).

I think the most entertaining crosswords are ones that have themes running through them that you may only notice on completion. Although I did quite an awesome one in the grauniad where every clue ended in 'say', but they were by no means all soundalike clues.

I kept meaning to start a thread here actually, to see how many of the rest of you do them (I've only seen someone else doing a cryptic crossword on the clue once in my relatively extensive experience of it).

[Dinos Sfyris]

At a quick glance I could only solve the HEARTS one on Davids crossword. I can only make any sort of sense out of very easy cryptic clues such as "Tuesday in French mostly over to a drop of scotch" (4) Could someone perhaps share some of the finer steps to solving them?

[M. George Quinn]

The hearts was one of the last ones I got which was rather odd since I work with cards on a regular basis.

The nun one is pretty easy. Love has a tennisy definition in crosswords.

I'd never heard of that word for a marble but the clue was very straightforward so I took a shot.

[David O'Donnell]

At a quick glance I could only solve the HEARTS one on Davids crossword. I can only make any sort of sense out of very easy cryptic clues such as "Tuesday in French mostly over to a drop of scotch" (4) Could someone perhaps share some of the finer steps to solving them?

I think if you can identify what type of clue it is then that normally helps. For instance anagrams tend to have some sort of trigger word and that trigger word can be anything which suggests disarray. For instance in the crossword I did I used confused to let you know it was an anagram but you can also use words like 'mixed up', 'at sea', 'gone awry', 'silly', 'arranged' and so on. The other thing is that many clues have a straight component and this straight clue section will come at the very start or the very end. For instance in the clue: "Drink ale with fan" (9) you think does the answer mean to drink or does it mean fan? In this clue the answer means fan, to drink = sup, ale = porter and you get SUPPORTER.

That brings us on to word exchanging which happens frequently in crosswords - as Magic George stated love tends to have a tennis reference but there are loads of others: able=can, agent=spy/rep, communist=red etc There are several of these and the more used you are to a particular solver the more you will discover their favourites. Quite a few clues will be double straight and you tend to recognise them because the phrasing of the clue will seem less laboured than other clues. For instance, "Savings book" (7), would have the answer RESERVE since RESERVE is a straight clue answer to both the words in the clue. In addition to word exchanging numbers are used for instance i=1 and v=5 etc You should be on the look out for that type of thing too.

Now, the three that I have included from Michael are single cryptic and they can be more tricky. The key to solving them is find a way of re-reading one of the words so that it has a double meaning. Ill-gotten gains (8,7) is a great clue because it takes a well known hackneyed phrase and finds a cryptic rendering of it. Most people think that this means gains made by deception but if you actually look at "ill-gotten" what does it mean?

One of the most important things I have learned about solving cryptics is the idea of the mental comma, do not follow the solver's punctuation (that's normally deliberately off-putting as in Michael's clue "The wife's mother" (6)). If you are having trouble with a clue try putting in your own commas and breaking the clue up that way it's surprising how often that lets see the clue for what it is.

[Dinos Sfyris]

There definitely seems to be lots of rules to solving them. As you said its a lot down to experience and knowing the style of each paper's crossword, which is why I probably never seem to be able to solve any, as we have loadsa papers at work which I occasionally give a fleeting glance. Sometimes they have a set of straight clues which give the same answers as cryptic which I like because it bails me out if I'm stuck on the cryptic, and then I can dis-assemble the cryptic and see how to get that answer. I still can't solve MiMaCo's but I'll hopefully with these tips I'll do better next time I try one. Cheers

[Joseph Bolas]

The wife's mother (6)

Ill-gotten gains? (8,7)

Solved by Horatius, given two pairs of hands? (6,7)

Any hints you could give us to solving these?

[David O'Donnell]

The wife's mother (6)

Ill-gotten gains? (8,7)

Solved by Horatius, given two pairs of hands? (6,7)



They are single cryptics so rely on a re-reading of at least one word. In the case of the first clue there are two ways of reading the apostrophe. Does ill-gotten mean only to get something by deceit? What did Horatius solve and why did he need two pairs of hands?

[Joseph Bolas]

The wife's mother (6)

Ill-gotten gains? (8,7)

Solved by Horatius, given two pairs of hands? (6,7)

They are single cryptics so rely on a re-reading of at least one word. In the case of the first clue there are two ways of reading the apostrophe. Does ill-gotten mean only to get something by deceit? What did Horatius solve and why did he need two pairs of hands?

What are the initials .

[Paul Howe]

At a quick glance I could only solve the HEARTS one on Davids crossword. I can only make any sort of sense out of very easy cryptic clues such as "Tuesday in French mostly over to a drop of scotch" (4) Could someone perhaps share some of the finer steps to solving them?

I think if you can identify what type of clue it is then that normally helps. For instance anagrams tend to have some sort of trigger word and that trigger word can be anything which suggests disarray. For instance in the crossword I did I used confused to let you know it was an anagram but you can also use words like 'mixed up', 'at sea', 'gone awry', 'silly', 'arranged' and so on. The other thing is that many clues have a straight component and this straight clue section will come at the very start or the very end. For instance in the clue: "Drink ale with fan" (9) you think does the answer mean to drink or does it mean fan? In this clue the answer means fan, to drink = sup, ale = porter and you get SUPPORTER.

That brings us on to word exchanging which happens frequently in crosswords - as Magic George stated love tends to have a tennis reference but there are loads of others: able=can, agent=spy/rep, communist=red etc There are several of these and the more used you are to a particular solver the more you will discover their favourites. Quite a few clues will be double straight and you tend to recognise them because the phrasing of the clue will seem less laboured than other clues. For instance, "Savings book" (7), would have the answer RESERVE since RESERVE is a straight clue answer to both the words in the clue. In addition to word exchanging numbers are used for instance i=1 and v=5 etc You should be on the look out for that type of thing too.

Now, the three that I have included from Michael are single cryptic and they can be more tricky. The key to solving them is find a way of re-reading one of the words so that it has a double meaning. Ill-gotten gains (8,7) is a great clue because it takes a well known hackneyed phrase and finds a cryptic rendering of it. Most people think that this means gains made by deception but if you actually look at "ill-gotten" what does it mean?

One of the most important things I have learned about solving cryptics is the idea of the mental comma, do not follow the solver's punctuation (that's normally deliberately off-putting as in Michael's clue "The wife's mother" (6)). If you are having trouble with a clue try putting in your own commas and breaking the clue up that way it's surprising how often that lets see the clue for what it is.

Great post

I dimly remember doing a crossword entitled "Element 18", which was perhaps the best clue about the content of a crossword I've ever seen.

Unfortunately I'm a bit rubbish at cryptics, usually managing just the anagram clues before getting hopelessly stuck. I didn't have too many problems with yours though which probably means you've set the bar way too low. MMC's clues, I'm utterly stuck on, far too sophisticated for me.

[David O'Donnell]

I really thought mine was quite tricky and I had a slight advantage on Michael's clues because he sent me the Horatius one knowing that I might get it due to interests of mine. Although I had a tough time with the ill-gotten gains one because he sent it as (7,7) instead of (8,7)!!

I have done a Countdown themed cryptic which is fairly easy - anybody who wants a go can try here Countdown Themed Cryptic

Also, I thought we could try a clue competition ... well not so much a competition so much as somebody suggests a word and we try to write a clue for it. Any takers?

[Dinos Sfyris]

Sounds good. I'll get the ball rolling: Jo Brand

What does the best clue-setter get?

[Dinos Sfyris]

I have done a Countdown themed cryptic which is fairly easy - anybody who wants a go can try here Countdown Themed Cryptic

Haha nice one Love some of the clues, especially "Des agrees it irritates Stuart" (4,5) Who's Gino Corr?

[David O'Donnell]

Best clue-setter gets an out of date Mars bar as well as deriving much kudos from fellow forumites.

The Legendary Gino Corr

[David O'Donnell]

I'll have a crack: JO BRAND

She doesn't play by the book, it's a chore but there's dosh to be had at the end of it.

[Jon Corby]

Sounds good. I'll get the ball rolling: Jo Brand

Fat bitch Katie Price fucks around, contracting strain of hepatitis (2,5)

[David O'Donnell]

Sounds good. I'll get the ball rolling: Jo Brand

Fat bitch Katie Price fucks around, contracting strain of hepatitis (2,5)

I don't think we need to see another clue, ladies and gentleman we have a winner!

Awesome - I am still laughing as I type.

[Jon Corby]

Awesome - I am still laughing as I type.

I actually like Jo Brand (aside from the irritating "funny" words in every sodding round), but to be able to make a clue slating Jordan as a fat, disease-ridden whore was too much to resist

[Dinos Sfyris]

HYPERLOL!

I suck at cryptic but here's mine anyway

Larger than life Countdowner mixes it up on banjo rd.

[Michael Wallace]

Sounds good. I'll get the ball rolling: Jo Brand

Fat bitch Katie Price fucks around, contracting strain of hepatitis (2,5)

Whilst this is indeed a superb clue, I was always under the impression that you can't anagrammise a word you've clued to (that is, to have an anagram of JORDAN, you actually have to have JORDAN in the clue, rather than a synonym for it), although it's entirely possible that I'm just being old-fashioned about this (since the book I have on crosswords used to be my dad's...).

[David O'Donnell]

No, you can use an exchange word. For instance I had the clue: That yellow is a frightful job (5) Job = chore (anagram) = ochre. Corby's clue is excellent and if you try to get pedantic with it again there is going to be real trouble ... understand?

[Dinos Sfyris]

I didnt realise the validity of the clue until Michael pointed out Katie Price = Jordan. I just thought it was a general dig at celebrities. Its even funnier now!

[Jon Corby]

I didnt realise the validity of the clue until Michael pointed out Katie Price = Jordan. I just thought it was a general dig at celebrities. Its even funnier now!

[Dinos Sfyris]

Where did you get my childhood photos from?

[David O'Donnell]

How do you post photos?

[David O'Donnell]

The wife's mother (6)


Here's my paltry effort

Sorry, I made a balls-up here, it should be (7). Hope no-one has gone insane trying to find that non-existent answer - is my life in danger?

[Michael Wallace]

No, you can use an exchange word. For instance I had the clue: That yellow is a frightful job (5) Job = chore (anagram) = ochre.

Ah, on further reading (i.e. wikipedia) it seems that it's just hardly ever done: "This kind of clue is called an indirect anagram, which in the vast majority of cryptic crosswords are not used, ever since they were criticised by 'Ximenes' in his 1966 book 'On the Art of the Crossword'."

[Jon Corby]

'Ximenes' can suck my veiny fuckstick.



(That's not another cryptic clue by the way, Dinos)

[Jon Corby]

Ah, on further reading (i.e. wikipedia) it seems that it's just hardly ever done: "This kind of clue is called an indirect anagram, which in the vast majority of cryptic crosswords are not used, ever since they were criticised by 'Ximenes' in his 1966 book 'On the Art of the Crossword'."

As a more serious response to this, I have come across clues before which have aggravated me because the solution is ambiguous, for example if you have "[x] confused [y]", where x and y are both indirect clues in themselves which are anagrams of each other, either could conceivably be the answer. This may be the type of thing he is referring to, which my clue doesn't suffer from

I always think a really good clue should be able to stand alone outside of the crossword and still have one definite answer, that when you get it you just know that 'yep, that's the answer', rather than it being one of several possibilities, all of which are equally viable and you need to get letters from elsewhere to decide which one it is. But that's probably just me.

[Jon Corby]

How do you post photos?

Click 'Quote' on my post and you should see the image tags, which contain the URL of the picture.

[Michael Wallace]

I always think a really good clue should be able to stand alone outside of the crossword and still have one definite answer, that when you get it you just know that 'yep, that's the answer', rather than it being one of several possibilities, all of which are equally viable and you need to get letters from elsewhere to decide which one it is. But that's probably just me.

Totally - that's one of the reasons I generally can't be bothered with quick crosswords, most of the time you have to work out half a dozen other clues to work out exactly which of the multitude of synonyms for 5 across is the one the setter wants. That and the fact that they're just so boring by comparison

Another quite common problem is clues that have superfluous words in them - a great clue is one where the setter can make it sound like a sentence/make sense without having to sneak in an extra 'an' or 'the' to make it read better.

[Michael Wallace]

And whilst I waste my time getting one of my crosswords on the internets for your enjoyment/piss-taking, here's a few clues of mine that I'd be interested in feedback on (especially any of the form "that doesn't really work because of...")

For when the football pitch is waterlogged? (10)
Not as green as it sounds? That's your lot! (3,4)
Old planet not united, but a philosopher (5)
Tumble - A trip may lead to this, even if you've lost your head (7)
They're crucial at election time, maybe as a result of being filled with hot air? (7,5)

(I fully appreciate that some of these may be so poorly constructed that people won't get them )

[Jon Corby]

Totally - that's one of the reasons I generally can't be bothered with quick crosswords

The only 'quick crossword' I quite enjoy is The Telegraph one, because they always have a little 'pun' when you say the first two (or occasionally more) answers - for example the top line of the completed puzzle might read 1a "MOUSEY" 4a "TONGUE" (ie Mao Tse Tung). A couple of us used to do our own similar ones at work, such that the answers make a sentence. For example:

1. Poem (3)
2. Privilege (6)
3. Reptile (6)
4. Old cloth (3)
5. Craft (3)
6. Compass point (4)

[Chris Corby]

Here is my effort at a cryptic clue

Family saloon, almost vintage, very tidy, one male owner of a degree in engineering (5,9)
_________________________________________________________________________________

(This is not part of the clue but I apologise for it being a bit clumsy but then I am tired, it is nearly midnight, and I am still waiting for a call from my son on Fathers' Day)

[David O'Donnell]

No-one seems to have posted an answer to Michael's clues so I thought I would give you the answers.

Solved by Horatius given two pairs of hands (6,7)

BRIDGE PROBLEM, I think, but Michael hasn't confirmed the answer.

The wife's mother? (7)

JOCASTA as in the mother of Oedipus since the clue can be read as the mother of the wife or as the wife is mother.

Ill-gotten gains? (8,7)

SICKNESS BENEFIT as in gains made when one is ill.

Three rather nice clues!

[Chris Corby]

No-one seems to have posted an answer to Michael's clues

That's because we couldn't do 'em!!

[David O'Donnell]

And whilst I waste my time getting one of my crosswords on the internets for your enjoyment/piss-taking, here's a few clues of mine that I'd be interested in feedback on (especially any of the form "that doesn't really work because of...")

For when the football pitch is waterlogged? (10)
Not as green as it sounds? That's your lot! (3,4)
Old planet not united, but a philosopher (5)
Tumble - A trip may lead to this, even if you've lost your head (7)
They're crucial at election time, maybe as a result of being filled with hot air? (7,5)

(I fully appreciate that some of these may be so poorly constructed that people won't get them )

Just saw these this morning Michael but I'd go for FLOODLIGHT and PLATO as two of the answers - would you mind explaining the PLATO one if it's right as I wasn't sure about about how the O gets to the end of PLAT.

Edit: They're crucial at election time, maybe as a result of being filled with hot air? (7,5) -- was just wondering if this should be (8,5) because FLOATING SEATS seemed like a fitting answer.

Edit 2: Or FLOATING VOTER seems to fit too.

[Dinos Sfyris]

I got PLATO via PLUTO, or maybe I'm just talking bollocks as David seems to be marginally better at these than I, Even if he is a drag artiste

[David O'Donnell]

Ahem, yup that makes sense - cheers Dinos.

[Jon Corby]

David seems to be marginally better at these than I, Even if he is a drag artiste

[David O'Donnell]

Someone mind explaining that one to me?

[Michael Wallace]

Just saw these this morning Michael but I'd go for FLOODLIGHT and PLATO as two of the answers - would you mind explaining the PLATO one if it's right as I wasn't sure about about how the O gets to the end of PLAT.

Edit: They're crucial at election time, maybe as a result of being filled with hot air? (7,5) -- was just wondering if this should be (8,5) because FLOATING SEATS seemed like a fitting answer.

Edit 2: Or FLOATING VOTER seems to fit too.

Hmm, I think I should really make that (8,6) (whoops, go go maths degree counting skills hyperforce) so FLOATING VOTERS (the intended answer) fits...

As for PLATO, as I think dinos explained, it's PLUTO not U but A, which hopefully makes sense.

I figure I'd stick down the answers to the other two now:

Not as green as it sounds? That's your lot! (3,4)

CAR PARK ('cos, you know, parks sound green, but a car park obviously isn't, and it's a lot - I feel this one seems a lot cleverer to me than it actually is )

Tumble - A trip may lead to this, even if you've lost your head (7)

TUMBLE (via stumble, but on retrospect that seems unfair since it's not you that's lost your head, but it, so I may scratch that one)

And damn ill-gotten gains - I was trying to think of a phrase like that (but all I could think of was health insurance, which didn't really fit ).

[David O'Donnell]

Nice clues, Michael - I thought there must be something up with the FLOATING VOTERS clue, actually after posting I wasn't happy with FLOATING VOTER^ because of the "They're" in your clue.

Michael emailed me another clue, which I am yet to solve:

Keeps going up and down? (6,7)

PS All the best for today, Michael!

[Dinos Sfyris]

Someone mind explaining that one to me?

No problem

The only 'quick crossword' I quite enjoy is The Telegraph one, because they always have a little 'pun' when you say the first two (or occasionally more) answers - for example the top line of the completed puzzle might read 1a "MOUSEY" 4a "TONGUE" (ie Mao Tse Tung). A couple of us used to do our own similar ones at work, such that the answers make a sentence. For example:

1. Poem (3)
2. Privilege (6)
3. Reptile (6)
4. Old cloth (3)
5. Craft (3)
6. Compass point (4)

[Chris Corby]

Michael emailed me another clue, which I am yet to solve:

Keeps going up and down? (6,7)

RISING FEATHER ?




whatever that is

[M. George Quinn]

I was thinking along those lines, too.

helium balloon?

[Jon Corby]

Keeps going up and down? (6,7)

BOUNCY CASTLES fits this pretty nicely I reckon.

[M. George Quinn]

BOUNCY BOOBIES fits better (especially if they're on a bouncy castle)






Hee, hee, I said boobies.

[Charlie Reams]

Keeps going up and down? (6,7)

Could be FLIGHT FEATHER.

[Jon Corby]

Keeps going up and down? (6,7)

Could be FLIGHT FEATHER.

Does no-one else agree that it's BOUNCY CASTLES? It fits perfectly.

[Paul Howe]

Keeps going up and down? (6,7)

Could be FLIGHT FEATHER.

Does no-one else agree that it's BOUNCY CASTLES? It fits perfectly.

I agree Jon, this has to be the right answer. Another nice clue from MMC, although some of his previous ones were a bit obscure for me.

This thread has inspired me to start taking cryptics more seriously. Do any of the afficionados on here have suggestions about which crossword a relative beginner should cut his teeth on? (I'm a bit rubbish, so nothing too hardcore please)

[Charlie Reams]

Keeps going up and down? (6,7)

Could be FLIGHT FEATHER.

Does no-one else agree that it's BOUNCY CASTLES? It fits perfectly.

I don't see how it fits perfectly. The clue suggests a singular answer (rather than "They keep going up and down") and I don't see any punny or cryptic link to bouncy castles. Am I missing something?

This thread has inspired me to start taking cryptics more seriously. Do any of the afficionados on here have suggestions about which crossword a relative beginner should cut his teeth on? (I'm a bit rubbish, so nothing too hardcore please)

I cut my teeth on The Telegraph, which is one of the easier daily ones. For a long time The Times' seemed totally impenetrable, but it's worth persisting with because some of the clues are miniature works of art. The Listener, in Saturdays' Times, is usually considered the hardest in general circulation, although there are plenty of specialist magazines which are much harder.

[Michael Wallace]

This thread has inspired me to start taking cryptics more seriously. Do any of the afficionados on here have suggestions about which crossword a relative beginner should cut his teeth on? (I'm a bit rubbish, so nothing too hardcore please)

Depending on how much of a beginner you are (i.e. don't be offended!) - the Telegraph is probably the easiest broadsheet cryptic out there (comparable to the Sunday Times). Although naturally your own experiences may vary.

In terms of learning, though, some newspapers do 'two-speed' ones, where they have quick clues and cryptic clues which give the same set of answers - unfortunately these tend to be a bit poorly put together (and I think are in things like the Sun or the Mirror, so only really an option if you can reliably find one lying around on a train...).

[Jon Corby]

... and I don't see any punny or cryptic link to bouncy castles. Am I missing something?

Yes