c4countdown

Please excuse the heading: the imposed length limit (and my intoxication by the exuberance of my own verbosity) precluded the use of a more elegant syntax.

I have long been intrigued by the way human languages function. (I regret not having studied linguistics when I was at studying age.) As the subject of swearing has arisen on at least two occasions (in this topic and in a more recent topic from this post onwards) I thought it might be interesting to discuss it further, especially as there are some aspects of it that seem to keep being overlooked.

In his excellent books, The Blank Slate and The Stuff of Thought, Steven Pinker discusses (amongst many other things) the results of extensive research into the nature of swearing from psychological, neurological, sociological and cultural perspectives. For me, the key fact about swearing is that it originates in the primitive brain, the limbic system, whereas the rest of language resides in our 'modern' brain, the neocortex. Some brain-damaged people who are lucid but unable to speak can still utter taboo words perfectly well. Scans show heightened activity in the amygdala when a subject (healthy or otherwise) uses taboo language.

I mention this because it explains why swearing can be so powerful in certain circumstances. It has the ability, unlike most ordinary language, to affect our emotional centre directly, bypassing the executive brain. This can be perceived as an unwelcome intrusion – verbal rape would not be an entirely facetious description – thus leading us to say it has caused offence. It also explains why swearing among friends is usually considered much less offensive, unless it is clearly being used in a verbal attack.

The issue of adults swearing in the presence of children is a complex one. Because bad language can have positive uses (see next paragraph), total censorship might be counter-productive. Gradual exposure seems necessary for healthy social and personal development. A child's knowledge of certain words is neither harmful nor unexpected, but the inappropriate and/or excessive use of those words by influential adults can lessen their perceived value and utility in the future. In addition, swearing is linked strongly with politeness: in most circumstances the two are mutually exclusive, and bad language from a role model can quickly blur the distinction.

With its roots in the emotional, primitive brain, swearing has been shown to reduce the perceived severity of discomfort resulting from physical injury or emotional distress. Whether it is the body or the mind that is hurt, shouting obscenities is proven to ease the pain. Other positive uses of swearing are in comedy and in certain social situations, but that's an entire essay in itself. Best I leave it for others to add their thoughts.

Alec Rivers wrote:studying age

Charlie Reams wrote:

Alec Rivers wrote:studying age

Yeah, you know, 15-30. That was years ago. Brain too mushed to do A-Levels and Degrees now.

Alec Rivers wrote:

Charlie Reams wrote:

Alec Rivers wrote:studying age

Yeah, you know, 15-30. That was years ago. Brain too mushed to do A-Levels and Degrees now.

Eek, into my thirties now, and I'm actually starting to feel like I could study properly!

Ian Volante wrote:Eek, into my thirties now, and I'm actually starting to feel like I could study properly!

I did too, but my depression is just too crushing these days. In hindsight I realise that's the point I should have made, rather than just referring to my age. I should have said I regret not studying when I still had the necessary motivation, memory, and mental focus.

Alec Rivers wrote:Please excuse the heading: the imposed length limit (and my intoxication by the exuberance of my own verbosity) precluded the use of a more elegant syntax.

I have long been intrigued by the way human languages function. (I regret not having studied linguistics when I was at studying age.) As the subject of swearing has arisen on at least two occasions (in this topic and in a more recent topic from this post onwards) I thought it might be interesting to discuss it further, especially as there are some aspects of it that seem to keep being overlooked.

In his excellent books, The Blank Slate and The Stuff of Thought, Steven Pinker discusses (amongst many other things) the results of extensive research into the nature of swearing from psychological, neurological, sociological and cultural perspectives. For me, the key fact about swearing is that it originates in the primitive brain, the limbic system, whereas the rest of language resides in our 'modern' brain, the neocortex. Some brain-damaged people who are lucid but unable to speak can still utter taboo words perfectly well. Scans show heightened activity in the amygdala when a subject (healthy or otherwise) uses taboo language.

I mention this because it explains why swearing can be so powerful in certain circumstances. It has the ability, unlike most ordinary language, to affect our emotional centre directly, bypassing the executive brain. This can be perceived as an unwelcome intrusion – verbal rape would not be an entirely facetious description – thus leading us to say it has caused offence. It also explains why swearing among friends is usually considered much less offensive, unless it is clearly being used in a verbal attack.

The issue of adults swearing in the presence of children is a complex one. Because bad language can have positive uses (see next paragraph), total censorship might be counter-productive. Gradual exposure seems necessary for healthy social and personal development. A child's knowledge of certain words is neither harmful nor unexpected, but the inappropriate and/or excessive use of those words by influential adults can lessen their perceived value and utility in the future. In addition, swearing is linked strongly with politeness: in most circumstances the two are mutually exclusive, and bad language from a role model can quickly blur the distinction.

With its roots in the emotional, primitive brain, swearing has been shown to reduce the perceived severity of discomfort resulting from physical injury or emotional distress. Whether it is the body or the mind that is hurt, shouting obscenities is proven to ease the pain. Other positive uses of swearing are in comedy and in certain social situations, but that's an entire essay in itself. Best I leave it for others to add their thoughts.

Alec, I remember the days when swearing was not allowed in films, and in bedroom scenes, married people were not allowed to sleep in the same bed. They just said goodnight to each other from their single beds before turning the lights out. In America, a group of ladies had the power to influence the public to boycott a film that offended public decency, so even a hint of sexual intercourse was banned. But attitudes change, and we turn off films on the television set that have mindless streams of swearing, and show writhing bodies on the beds. I realise that it's probably because of our ages, and the fact that we are past it, and we no longer see it as entertainment. When working in my front garden, I hear groups of school children using language that would cause a navvy to blush, and it is uttered so casually as if it is normal. I was guilty of that behavior when I was ten years old before the 1939-45 war. Me and my mate were lining up at a greengrocer in Deptford, which was selling plums for a penny per pound. I only had a halfpenny, so I asked for half a pound of plums. The greengrocer said very nastily that he wasn't going to sod about for a halfpenny and told us to buzz off. I squeaked out "yah you fucking bastard " and then we scarpered quick. I still have the clear memory of all the old ladies in the queue screeching with laughter. In my defence for using that language, I didn't understand what those words meant. It was the language used by my Aunts and Uncles and I started picking it up.

Alec Rivers wrote:In his excellent books, The Blank Slate and The Stuff of Thought, Steven Pinker discusses (amongst many other things) the results of extensive research into the nature of swearing from psychological, neurological, sociological and cultural perspectives.

Having read the latter and working my way though the small print of the former (there's no big print), yes, the swearing discussion caught my eye. One worry that I've had in reflecting on the discussion is that the number of truly taboo words has shrunk to virtually zero ... not in all contexts, obviously (my parents' house, for a start), but certainly amongst young people, words that I will only bleat out in exasperation (or use in the feeble hope of humorous effect) are commonplace. Can new taboo words be invented (most of the old ones refer to sex, body parts (especially sexual ones) and bodily functions, and, historically, religion), or have we lost for ever the real power of swearing, once we've used up sex, body parts and functions and religion? It's very worrying.

Brian, this is why I think it's as important as ever to set young people a good example. In effect, taboo words are a resource, and, as such, should be used sparingly and appropriately. I'm not a prude – I think there is a time and a place for all the 'bad' words, but we're forgetting to demonstrate to youngsters what those times and places are.

That's just reminded me of something I've believed for some time. Not so long ago, the majority of children were raised according to the principle: "Do as I say, don't do as I do." Objections aside, it resulted in the majority of kids at least knowing what civilised speech and behaviour are. In recent decades, however, that principle has been successfully challenged. We've now more-or-less done away with it but we've overlooked the fact that its absence requires us to set a much better example. Yes, we've determined that it's fairer to allow kids to do as we do, but, because of that, we now have to do as we say, too!

Brian Moore wrote:It's very worrying.

It's not the end of the world.

Ben Hunter wrote:It's not the end of the world.

It is! Haven't you heard?

Is Alec prepared to break George's record for the longest post on c4c? Find out soon!

Alec Rivers wrote:In effect, taboo words are a resource, and, as such, should be used sparingly and appropriately.

Quite so. I find it annoying when comedians overuse certain words - not because I find the words offensive, per se, but because they lose their surprise and comedic value ... I was on a coach with a load of students, and one of them asked if we could watch a Lee Evans video - there were some nice comic observations but his inability to get through a sentence without swearing several times just became tedious. A well placed swear word can be really funny (anyone remember Sally Smedley's beautifully enunciated riposte in Drop The Dead Donkey? - I think this was the only time she swore in eight years), but overused, well, what a waste.

Brian Moore wrote:

Alec Rivers wrote:In effect, taboo words are a resource, and, as such, should be used sparingly and appropriately.

Quite so. I find it annoying when comedians overuse certain words - not because I find the words offensive, per se, but because they lose their surprise and comedic value ... I was on a coach with a load of students, and one of them asked if we could watch a Lee Evans video - there were some nice comic observations but his inability to get through a sentence without swearing several times just became tedious. A well placed swear word can be really funny (anyone remember Sally Smedley's beautifully enunciated riposte in Drop The Dead Donkey? - I think this was the only time she swore in eight years), but overused, well, what a waste.

That might just be the way Lee Evans speaks, and the effect he's going for necessitates swearing a lot. He isn't trying to relive a moment from Drop the Dead Donkey.

Brian Moore wrote:Can new taboo words be invented?

I don't think so. After all where can you go from cunt?
Ans: You can pull out and come on her tits

Ben Hunter wrote:That might just be the way Lee Evans speaks, and the effect he's going for necessitates swearing a lot. He isn't trying to relive a moment from Drop the Dead Donkey.

But the swearing in Lee Evans is as tedious (to me) as listening to someone say "um" or "y'know" every few words, while he is simultaneously devaluing the power of the word - it's the devaluation effect that annoys me. But I find the famous crime scene from Season 1 of The Wire, which consists of nothing but creative use of one swear word very funny - it doesn't undervalue the expressive power of the word in question.

Brian Moore wrote:I find the famous crime scene from Season 1 of The Wire, which consists of nothing but creative use of one swear word very funny - it doesn't undervalue the expressive power of the word in question.

That is funny. 'Fuck' is, after all, reputed to be one of the hardest-working words in the language.

Brian Moore wrote:

Ben Hunter wrote:That might just be the way Lee Evans speaks, and the effect he's going for necessitates swearing a lot. He isn't trying to relive a moment from Drop the Dead Donkey.

But the swearing in Lee Evans is as tedious (to me) as listening to someone say "um" or "y'know" every few words, while he is simultaneously devaluing the power of the word - it's the devaluation effect that annoys me. But I find the famous crime scene from Season 1 of The Wire, which consists of nothing but creative use of one swear word very funny - it doesn't undervalue the expressive power of the word in question.

Good luck resisting that, bro.

Brian Moore wrote:But I find the famous crime scene from Season 1 of The Wire, which consists of nothing but creative use of one swear word very funny - it doesn't undervalue the expressive power of the word in question.

I've never watched The Wire so I didn't know what to expect, but I was hoping for a good scene. However, I found that to be pretty shit. I don't get why you say it's creative.

Charlie Reams wrote:Good luck resisting that, bro.

Hmm, Cnut does spring to mind.

I think this is very funny and must be relevant to this discussion in some way, even if I'm not quite sure how at the moment.

By the way when and why did "cunt" become the rudest swear word that is apparently miles worse than any other? I don't actually remember this always being the case, although perhaps when I was growing up, I wasn't aware that there was a ranking list out there and I hadn't met so many weird people that are scared of swear words (for some reason I know loads now). I'm sure it was only in the last 10 years that it became such a big thing.

Gavin Chipper wrote:By the way when and why did "cunt" become the rudest swear word that is apparently miles worse than any other? I don't actually remember this always being the case, although perhaps when I was growing up, I wasn't aware that there was a ranking list out there and I hadn't met so many weird people that are scared of swear words (for some reason I know loads now). I'm sure it was only in the last 10 years that it became such a big thing.

Something fishy going on.

Ian Volante wrote:

Gavin Chipper wrote:By the way when and why did "cunt" become the rudest swear word that is apparently miles worse than any other? I don't actually remember this always being the case, although perhaps when I was growing up, I wasn't aware that there was a ranking list out there and I hadn't met so many weird people that are scared of swear words (for some reason I know loads now). I'm sure it was only in the last 10 years that it became such a big thing.

Something fishy going on.

The word cunt is not a swear word. In the Oxford dictionary (I think that is the one) a cunt is described as a small orifice. I would guess that it is to do with engineering or carpentry.

Alec Rivers wrote:

Charlie Reams wrote:

Alec Rivers wrote:studying age

Yeah, you know, 15-30. That was years ago. Brain too mushed to do A-Levels and Degrees now.

Oi! I am starting a PhD in two months and I am 32

David O'Donnell wrote:

Alec Rivers wrote:

Alec Rivers wrote:studying age

Yeah, you know, 15-30. That was years ago. Brain too mushed to do A-Levels and Degrees now.

Oi! I am starting a PhD in two months and I am 32

Better get it done quickly then

Gavin Chipper wrote:By the way when and why did "cunt" become the rudest swear word that is apparently miles worse than any other? I don't actually remember this always being the case, although perhaps when I was growing up, I wasn't aware that there was a ranking list out there and I hadn't met so many weird people that are scared of swear words (for some reason I know loads now). I'm sure it was only in the last 10 years that it became such a big thing.

As I postulated in my opening discussion (yeah, I know, what kind of c*** talks like that?) certain words are designated as direct, unfiltered links to the emotional core. We need these in order to convey sentiments that are emotionally highly charged. The difference between "You have caused me to be most frightfully disappointed!" and "You cunt!" is that there is no doubting the sincerity of the latter. If we keep watering these words down, we lose the facility altogether.

David O'Donnell wrote:Oi! I am starting a PhD in two months and I am 32

I did clarify this earlier, in this post.

So you think we should swear less so we can still perform what's basically a shit piece of magic? I don't really buy your argument, but I think I'd prefer not to have my lizard brain activated by the mere utterance of a magic word.

It also seems strange having a go at comedians for swearing and devaluing the power of language when they're ultimately trying to provoke the same kind of primal response, except through a really quite sophisticated and practised use of language.

Further, there's not exactly a shortage of fear, jealousy,love, laughter, hatred, sexuality and barbarity out there in the big wide world, I think in that context worrying about the precise effects of swearing on our neurochemistry is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Paul Howe wrote:So you think we should swear less so we can still perform what's basically a shit piece of magic?

When did Derren Brown come into this?

Alec Rivers wrote:If we keep watering these words down, we lose the facility altogether.

[Citation needed]. Language, swearing and complaints about its overuse have been around for a long time now, it seems a bold claim that we are nearing a point of irreversible change in the fundamental utility of speech.

I would certainly agree that some individuals overuse swear words. It just gets annoying when you're standing on a platform at a railway station listening to two people talking, and one person fills every gap in the conversation with "fucking". But that would probably be the case for any word, not just a swear word. Other than than, it's fine!

Charlie Reams wrote:

Alec Rivers wrote:If we keep watering these words down, we lose the facility altogether.

[Citation needed]. Language, swearing and complaints about its overuse have been around for a long time now, it seems a bold claim that we are nearing a point of irreversible change in the fundamental utility of speech.

Lol, yeah, that was a bit melodramatic. I was trying to support Brian Moore's statements, and my own, and ended up taking it a bit far. It was 2:45am, though, and I'd had a couple of beers.

I come from a background where swearing was completely discouraged - in fact, I was once banend from buying a magazine due to its use of swear words and my copying of them (we're not even talking Viz or the f word here). Perhaps as a result, I went through a phase of swearing a lot, although usually out of anger or frustration. Today I do swear sometimes, but I understand the idea that it comes from a differnet part of the brain as the reest of language - it's more satisfying in the moment, but less constructive and expressive in the long run, especially if overuse.

TV does often use it too much - the Drop the Dead Donkey and the Wire examples given were intersting for opposite reasons though. I suppose my frustration is as much with characters who swear excessively - it seems to me to illustrate a short fuse, poor language skills, poor self-image, or all three. My pet irritation, however, is the censorship of the f word in post-9pm programmes, especially when it's used in a non-sexual context. The extreme example was from Channel 4 last month - people's reactions to seeing the Twin Towers collapse from outside their window was censored....

Martin Smith wrote:My pet irritation, however, is the censorship of the f word in post-9pm programmes, especially when it's used in a non-sexual context. The extreme example was from Channel 4 last month - people's reactions to seeing the Twin Towers collapse from outside their window was censored....

Bear in mind that, in the case of an independently produced documentary such as that one, it's quite possible that the bleeping was applied by the film's makers (who will have sold it to a number of broadcasters for showing at various times of day) and not by Channel 4.

Phil Reynolds wrote:Bear in mind that, in the case of an independently produced documentary such as that one, it's quite possible that the bleeping was applied by the film's makers (who will have sold it to a number of broadcasters for showing at various times of day) and not by Channel 4.

They seem to be a lot more squeamish about such things in the US than here - unnecessarily trigger-happy with the beep button, so to speak.

Gavin Chipper wrote: ...when I was growing up, I wasn't aware that there was a ranking list out there ...

I remember that at primary school, although I didn't know all their meanings, I did notice that some words were worse than others, from the reaction of adults when I used them. I even made up a table on the lines of two ****s = a ####, two ####s = a %%%%, and so on - don't recall any details 70+ years later, except that I think fuck was top, not having heard of cunt at that age. However, when I tried reciting it to other kids,I was disappointed that they didn't get it (being less numerate, and likely only ranking them roughly, if at all) and simply called the performance "the swearing machine".

If you listen to the early Billy Connoly recordings (eg Solo Concert) he very rarely swore. Therefore when he did the comic effect was far greater than it is nowadays when he swears far more often.
I know that it was over 30 years ago but I still feel his more economical use of "swearie words" worked better.

Davy Affleck wrote:If you listen to the early Billy Connoly recordings (eg Solo Concert) he very rarely swore. Therefore when he did the comic effect was far greater than it is nowadays when he swears far more often.
I know that it was over 30 years ago but I still feel his more economical use of "swearie words" worked better.

Funny you should menton him as he was the first comic where I really noticed the effect - you can hear how the swearing itself got laughs, so you can understand how the (probably unconcious) tendency would have been to swear more often, if the result was more laughs (at least in the short term).

And that highlights one of human nature's shortcomings. I think one of the most difficult (and most often overlooked) things to learn in life is that moderation is usually better than excess, yet still we strive for "more, more, more!" A few drinks can make you feel great but drink to excess and the benefit is lost. The same goes for other drugs as well as money, sex, power, and anything else people relentlessly strive for. Thus finding out that swearing can cause a laugh doesn't mean that more swearing will create more laughs. My nan used to say: "a little of what you fancy." Wise words indeed.

Alec Rivers wrote:And that highlights one of human nature's shortcomings. I think one of the most difficult (and most often overlooked) things to learn in life is that moderation is usually better than excess, yet still we strive for "more, more, more!" A few drinks can make you feel great but drink to excess and the benefit is lost. The same goes for other drugs as well as money, sex, power, and anything else people relentlessly strive for. Thus finding out that swearing can cause a laugh doesn't mean that more swearing will create more laughs. My nan used to say: "a little of what you fancy." Wise words indeed.

If anybody out there is burdened with too much money, I am willing to to relieve them of their agony. Send it to me, because I don't mind suffering for them. As for too much sex, I look back on my long life with pleasant nostalgia, or as my lovely Wife often reminds me,"You've had more than your share mate"

Peter Mabey wrote:

Gavin Chipper wrote: ...when I was growing up, I wasn't aware that there was a ranking list out there ...

I remember that at primary school, although I didn't know all their meanings, I did notice that some words were worse than others, from the reaction of adults when I used them. I even made up a table on the lines of two ****s = a ####, two ####s = a %%%%, and so on - don't recall any details 70+ years later, except that I think fuck was top, not having heard of cunt at that age. However, when I tried reciting it to other kids,I was disappointed that they didn't get it (being less numerate, and likely only ranking them roughly, if at all) and simply called the performance "the swearing machine".

I couldn't give two fucks about this post. Maybe it deserves one fuck though.

Dinos Sfyris wrote:

Peter Mabey wrote:

Gavin Chipper wrote: ...when I was growing up, I wasn't aware that there was a ranking list out there ...

I remember that at primary school, although I didn't know all their meanings, I did notice that some words were worse than others, from the reaction of adults when I used them. I even made up a table on the lines of two ****s = a ####, two ####s = a %%%%, and so on - don't recall any details 70+ years later, except that I think fuck was top, not having heard of cunt at that age. However, when I tried reciting it to other kids,I was disappointed that they didn't get it (being less numerate, and likely only ranking them roughly, if at all) and simply called the performance "the swearing machine".

I couldn't give two fucks about this post. Maybe it deserves one fuck though.

That's 7 lawks a lordies and half a cunt then ??

Derek Hazell wrote:Phredd, please don't say "cunt" on the programme.

Shocking.

For want of a better place to post this, I don't:
http://tv.gawker.com/5667748/the-most-r ... ovie-lines