There are major differences between Christians, Muslims, and Jews, primarily about the nature of Jesus Christ, and therefore the nature of salvation-from where most of the differences stem. Handling those differences with violence is something I think the majority of the followers of all three would firmly reject (that is obviously not the case for, especially some of the more vocal minorities within them).Fiona T wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 10:25 pm For those that believe in God...
Do you think the God you worship is the same God that the Christians/Muslims/Jews worship?
It seems to me that most of the troubles in today's world are around not what God you believe in, but how you worship your God. Is he really that insecure that he'll damn those who pray via the wrong channel, or facing the wrong direction, or at the wrong times, or eat the wrong foods, or wear the wrong clothes to an eternity of hell? Even within different flavours of the same religion, small differences seem to be enough to cause hate and division (Catholic v Protestant, Sunni v Shia etc)
Where is the love for fellow humans regardless of how/when/who (or if) they pray to?
I realise the stuff that's hit the news recently isn't really new, but 1000s of innocent civilians are being killed because of differences in the way that God is worshipped. How's he gonna fix this? Is he just sitting back with the popcorn?
(genuine question - keen to hear the views of those who believe)
Jews believe that Jesus is not the promised Messiah, whilst Islam holds that Jesus is a prophet rather than the Messiah, who pointed the way to Mohammed (PBUH). (NOTE-These can be different and my understading of Judaism and Islam is not as extensive-I stand happy to be corrected if needs be!)
Regarding Christianity, specfically Christian values, the Gospel states that salvation is achieved by the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and acceptance of him as your Saviour. The grace given from this is what saves, and beliefs. Not following specific rules. Not any good works. Belief in this grace alone. And when you repent of your sins, it is wiped clean. A lot of what you see of Christianity in the news may not show this, but this is core belief. How people follow that core belief can be variable.
In terms of salvation, the belief in hell as a place of eternal torture is something quite modern. I’ll reference here a scholar called N.T Wright. Look at his podcast ‘Ask N.T Wright Anything’ episode 18. It is more of an idea of separation from God-the image of a lake of fire stemming more from Platonic thought (and this is something one which I not the expert-see Wright!). As to who goes to heaven or hell, that is not a judgement to be made by anyone human-but most Christians would maintain that God is a God of love. For those with bad experiences of the church, that might make you scoff, I know. But that is the focus and belief of the Christian message-even if some haven't always carried that out
Going onto ‘Christian’ values…I can see why many equate them with inequality, homophobia, and misogyny. My entire undergrad dissertation was an 8,000-word rant at how Christianity is misused in this manner (available on request if you want something to help you nod off). If you live by Gospel grace, it makes it very hard for you to judge, for you to criticize, for you to be mean (and good grief, I get it wrong on many, many occasions). Jesus evidently makes multiple calls against judgement, spitefulness, nastiness.Fiona T wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 12:49 pmOh I think there's plenty wrong with a lot of Christian values. Inequality, homophobia, mysoginism for starters
I suspect those aren't the values you mean though - you mean love, honesty, helping those less fortunate etc, etc... Christians don't have a monopoly on those values, and religion is not a requirement to live a moral, fulfilling and meaningful life. Indeed the best approach to life is to accept you only have one shot at it, so live it in the best way you can for yourself and society.
Jesus called ‘blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God’ (Matthew 5:10). Paul calls on Christians to ‘if it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone’ (Romans 12:18), among many, many others.
Fiona T wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:36 pmHow can it be meaningful if it's false? Spending your one and only brief shot at life with the false hope of having a better afterlife seems a terrible waste. The best way to get meaning from life is the here and now - make your impact on the world a positive one (something you've definitely embraced with your veganism), get joy from nature, relationships, friendships, activities, work, leisure. Forgive others (and yourself) not because the bible dictates it, but because that's the way to find contentment.Callum Todd wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:55 pmI think it could be said that religion is a requirement to live an objectively meaningful life, with the caveat that it is almost certain that the objective behind that meaning is false.
I believe that's essentially the main reason, other than perhaps the general resilience of being grandfathered in, that religion continues to be a ubiquitous phenomenon in human societies after many of its other qualities have largely outlived their evolutionary advantage.
God existed because we didn't have science. Religion evolved as a way to control the masses and make them accept the shitty lot that many had with the promise of something better to come.
I would obviously disagree that it is false, and would state it’s meaningful in many other ways. I (and many other Christians) would say that we are not spending our brief shot here on earth hoping for a better afterlife. The grace that we receive is so freeing-it doesn’t get rid of the bad of our time here, but prayer, fellowship, and belief give such joy and freedom.
Elliott Mellor wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:52 pmI'm not sure I'm totally with this take. I strongly refute the idea that belief in the meaningfulness of life is inherently religious. I think life has meaning, and I'm very much an atheist. You don't need to believe in any higher power or spirit in order to believe that life has meaning at all. I'm totally at peace with the fact that when I die, that's the end, and that whilst I'm alive I should try and have a positive impact on the world and enjoy the time that I am here in a conscious form.Callum Todd wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 1:10 pmIt can't, but people who find meaning in a religious claim wouldn't believe it to be false.Fiona T wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:36 pm How can it be meaningful if it's false? Spending your one and only brief shot at life with the false hope of having a better afterlife seems a terrible waste. The best way to get meaning from life is the here and now - make your impact on the world a positive one (something you've definitely embraced with your veganism), get joy from nature, relationships, friendships, activities, work, leisure. Forgive others (and yourself) not because the bible dictates it, but because that's the way to find contentment.
Agreed with the rest as a good source of subjective meaning. But it is subjective. I think any objective claim on meaningfulness of life is necessarily religious, even if it does not explicitly invoke the divine. Without any religious belief we are left to form our own subjective meaning or accept absurdism, lest we fall into nihilism.
I think your last sentence here is especially puzzling - people who are religious form subjective opinions on things as well. Even those in the same religion as fellow humans may hold wildly different beliefs and have different interpretations of what things mean. In fact, given the great number of wars caused by religion, I'd even say that religion causes people to form subjective opinions.
In terms of ‘meaningfulness of life’, people do find meaning in many things. I can see why people may think that religion existed because we didn’t have science. However, I would state that arguing there is no God is as big as a leap of faith as claiming there is a God. The Bible states that we are called to do things by faith (see all of Hebrews 11)
I must confess my knowledge of the history and origin of Biblical texts isn’t as extensive as I would want it to be in terms of answering the other questions. I’ll point you in the direction N.T Wright and Tim Keller-even if you don’t believe, it can still provide very interesting insights.
Wright-https://www.premierunbelievable.com/sho ... t-anything
Keller- https://gospelinlife.com/
There is a lot that the church has done is reprehensible, and it has much to answer for, I know. However, I would recommend-go to a church, see what it is like-grill a Christian (be it me or someone else!), and have a look. No matter your beliefs, it will widen your thoughts and broaden your viewpoints