Has apterous killed Countdown?

[Matthew Green]

Is anyone else starting to find it really boring watching apterites on the show?
Watching Innis today was so predictable- I knew he would get HOPLITES, LARIATS and SOUTANE and I know he only knows them from apterous. Not taking anything away from Innis (or Jimmy or any others for that matter) who is a cool guy, and I commend him on his retention which is excellent, but the only exciting bit was that brilliant 2nd numbers.

Its just so much more fun watching someone playing off a worldly vocabulary combined with a flair for scrambling (Fell, Beevers etc.) than it is watching someone recall high probability words that they dont know the meaning of. It was good to see Kirk had gone to the trouble of looking them up and finding their meaning though.

And then the other problem is that now any contestant who isnt apterous-trained is incredibly frustrating to watch when you see them miss words like RAINOUT, DOMAINE and AMNIOTE which are basic apterous words but not something you'd use in day-to-day life. With the exception of Kirk, Hamish and Cate, I'm getting increasingly bored of watching.

p.s. Am I starting to sound like JL?

[Andrew Hulme]

Very interesting, and perhaps brave to post on here, question! Did wonder about posting something along these lines a while ago... but bottled it. I commend you.

While I certainly enjoy the show now more than ever, I wonder if this is different from the general public who really have little hope of beating someone like Innis in a round (sorry to use you as an example, may or may not be the same when I appear next week, just cos ur on now). I hope the answer to the topic header is no, is certainly isn't for me, but it's certainly a question worth asking. I hope people on here genuinely have a good discussion about this rather than just thinking "we love apterous, therefore no".

Great post imo.

[Kirk Bevins]

I find it exciting to have apterites on the show. So what if they miss DOMAINE or AMNIOTE - perhaps they should have watched more editions of Countdown or perhaps they should have found their own means of practising to get better. Knowing words without definitions is exciting. I loved Conor getting words like HETAIRAS and having no idea what they were.

I find it boring seeing "normal" octochamps but when an apterite comes on like Innis I get excited knowing he will be coming up with obscure words like HOPLITES which, to us, seems normal but to most of the Countdown audience is well impressive.

Keep training 'em up I say. Makes for great TV. Can't stand watching people spend 15 seconds trying to get RETAINING as the answer to a conundrum and then going on to win 8.

[Jon O'Neill]

worldly vocabulary [...] Beevers

Eh?

Really though, I'm not sure where I stand in this point. Let's see how cool the people on each side of the debate are and then I'll pick.

[Jon O'Neill]

I find it exciting to have apterites on the show. So what if they miss DOMAINE or AMNIOTE - perhaps they should have watched more editions of Countdown or perhaps they should have found their own means of practising to get better. Knowing words without definitions is exciting. I loved Conor getting words like HETAIRAS and having no idea what they were.

I find it boring seeing "normal" octochamps but when an apterite comes on like Innis I get excited knowing he will be coming up with obscure words like HOPLITES which, to us, seems normal but to most of the Countdown audience is well impressive.

Keep training 'em up I say. Makes for great TV. Can't stand watching people spend 15 seconds trying to get RETAINING as the answer to a conundrum and then going on to win 8.

Alright, I've decided now. Exactly the opposite of this.

[Kirk Bevins]

Alright, I've decided now. Exactly the opposite of this.

Why?

[Andrew Hulme]

I agree with everything Kirk said. Not sure it means the answer to the question is no though. Just because me, Kirk, or a few hundred other apterites like the show better because the standard is higher doesn't mean it hasn't killed the show. We're not exactly a random sample of the shows audience are we?

What will ultimately kill countdown (god forbid the day ever comes) is low viewing figures, and will the fact that Joe Public has increasingly less chance to tie with/beat the contestants mean that these will begin to decline?

[Michael Wallace]

Knowing words without definitions is exciting.

This really baffles me, but each to their own, I guess.

[Jon O'Neill]

Alright, I've decided now. Exactly the opposite of this.

Why?

Knowing words without definitions is exciting.

This really baffles me, but each to their own, I guess.

[Steve Durney]

Thanks for the spoiler. I haven't watched the last couple of shows yet, the first one being Innis's debut. Try thinking a bit more carefully before posting.

[Charlie Reams]

Its just so much more fun watching someone playing off a worldly vocabulary combined with a flair for scrambling (Fell, Beevers etc.) than it is watching someone recall high probability words that they dont know the meaning of.

If the game rewards something you don't want to reward then blame the game, not the contestants.

[Junaid Mubeen]

Thanks for the spoiler. I haven't watched the last couple of shows yet, the first one being Innis's debut. Try thinking a bit more carefully before posting.

Oh shit, so you don't know that Innis hit 164 on his debut?

[Steve Durney]

Thanks for the spoiler. I haven't watched the last couple of shows yet, the first one being Innis's debut. Try thinking a bit more carefully before posting.

Oh shit, so you don't know that Innis hit 164 on his debut?

It wasn't exactly a surprise to hear Innis had won his first few games (with all respect to Clive and the others) but it does piss me off when people do this. Shouldn't this thread be moved into the spoilers now?
EDIT: That was quick!

[David Williams]

A topic I'd also thought of raising. I tend to agree with Matthew's conclusion without really agreeing with anything he says. Boring? No, I like watching good players. HOPLITES, LARIATS and SOUTANE? Got them all, and I've never used apterous. I've got quite an extensive vocabulary of words I've only ever heard by watching Countdown. Fell? Pretty obvious he'd studied the NODE at length. He knew the meanings of words that I'd never come across, and he came up with allowable non-Scrabble words. Beevers? Read his own account.

But they were exceptions. Apterous makes it all easier and more enjoyable. I think we're going to get several near-perfect competitors every series. There was a thread a while back "Will a normal person ever win Countdown again", and it looks increasingly likely that it will require a considerable commitment of time to be competitive. If that means that talented people decide not to bother applying, and we are left with apterous members and cannon fodder, that can't be good. What Kirk had to say about Cate's outburst was interesting. It's not cheating, of course, but I can see where she's coming from.

In the past Damian was very keen on the idea that you couldn't really prepare for Countdown, and that was one reason for having the OED rather than Chambers. He was proud to call it a parlour game. There's nothing to be done, so we might as well make the best of it, but I'd be very interested to hear what he has to say.

[Andrew Hulme]

I love the fact that that 'hit' is the verb assigned to achieving a certain score!

Was great tho wasn't it?

Is 6 9's a new record?

[Junaid Mubeen]

I love the fact that that 'hit' is the verb assigned to achieving a certain score!

Was great tho wasn't it?

Is 6 9's a new record?

It was 5 9's; GULLIBLE is only 8.

[Kirk Bevins]

I love the fact that that 'hit' is the verb assigned to achieving a certain score!

Was great tho wasn't it?

Is 6 9's a new record?

It was 5 9's; GULLIBLE is only 8.

But he was toying with BLUEGILLS

[Junaid Mubeen]

Impressive conundrum spot though; STEVEDURN wasn't the easiest scramble.

[Phil Reynolds]

And then the other problem is that now any contestant who isnt apterous-trained is incredibly frustrating to watch when you see them miss words like RAINOUT, DOMAINE and AMNIOTE which are basic apterous words but not something you'd use in day-to-day life.

Odd choice of examples. I'm familiar with all three and know that they're valid ODE2r words, not because I play apterous much (I don't), but because they crop up regularly on the show.

[Innis Carson]

I have wondered about this issue quite a lot, and it worried me that this would be a widespread reaction to me and all the other apterites who have been/will be on the show. I can see your point that there's probably not going to be much appeal to many people in watching contestants recite memorised 'useful' words all the time. But given the nature of the game (in theory, a contest of skill), it's completely natural and logical that people are going to make efforts to improve their ability at the game, if anything it would do the game an injustice if people didn't. I don't see how Apterous is anything more than an extension of this, so it doesn't seem right to look upon it as a bad thing. I'd hate to think there's some kind of upper limit of what the standard is allowed to be like before it starts "killing" the game. If people are learning these 'good but predictable' words, there's nothing that can be really be done about it short of filtering out potential applicants who appeared to 'know too much', which would be ridiculous. Obviously Apterous has impacted Countdown, but it was inevitably going to happen in some way, and on the whole I think it's made it more exciting.

[Jojo Apollo]

Me personally, I like seeing all the great apterites on the tv show, it raises the bar. Sort of like Usain Bolt raising the bar in the 100m/200m. I also like to see records broken in Countdown, maybe one of the apterites will break Julian's long standing high score of 146 in the future. Also really looking forward to the future big showdowns (hopefully) between the apterous big guns and scrabble experts etc on the tv show.

[Jimmy Gough]

I only really watch Countdown when there's someone from apterous on the show. I think Innis is a hugely entertaining contestant and he actually knows a heck of a lot of the definitions (at least when I've questioned him). I find it odd that you like watching Julian, Craig and Kirk but not other apterites when they're (we're) all doing the same thing: learning high frequency words to do well on the show.

When I was on, in a strange sort of way, I felt like a fraud because I'm not "naturally" good at CD, nor do I possess a large vocabulary and good anagramming skills. It is only because I had apterous that I was any good. It still staggers me just how great contestants are without using apterous; you've got to have respect for someone like Hamish who is able to spot words such as FRACTIOUS with such little practice.

You say you don't want to take the shine off of Innis' extremely impressive performances, but you are really. I think all your post goes to show is how much contestant likeability comes down to individual personalities, rather than how they "learnt their trade" in becoming good at Countdown.

[Craig Beevers]

Err yea my vocab is rubbish, or was when I went on Countdown.

I've picked up a lot of word meanings now, some because I struggled with recalling the word properly so the extra information helps get it right but mostly as Zyzzyva has brief definitions for CSW (8 letter words and under) and you inevitably remember the odd ones.

[Ralph Gillions]

I wonder if we are slowly heading towards 2 different types of game:
the parlour game, in which I feel I can participate to some extent as a viewer,
and the more esoteric type of game, which alienates me.

[Michael Wallace]

Me personally, I like seeing all the great apterites on the tv show, it raises the bar. Sort of like Usain Bolt raising the bar in the 100m/200m.

You must be thinking of the high jump. Or possibly the pole vault.

[Jimmy Gough]

Me personally, I like seeing all the great apterites on the tv show, it raises the bar. Sort of like Usain Bolt raising the bar in the 100m/200m.

You must be thinking of the high jump. Or possibly the pole vault.

Or World's Strongest Man.

[Simon Myers]

I'm not sure whether I entirely agree. Knowing Innis is going to go for particular words may well be saying as much about you as it does about him - your own practice on Apterous has beefed up your personal knowledge of words and hence made it more likely that when a top player spots the longest word available, so will you. The same point applies to the frustration of watching untrained players miss RAINOUT - that's only frustrating to you, but to the average player at home nothing has changed.

Top players have been around for a long time. You cite Fell and Beevers as examples, but I'm certain both will admit to putting in a large amount of preparatory effort before going on the show. I know JF used the handheld electronic game and I imagine CB used Zyzzyva with the ODE dictionary or something similar. My point here is that Apterous hasn't changed the fact that the very top Countdown players use learning aids to improve at the game; the main difference is that it's made learning fun. While some individuals are happy to grind away alone studying word lists or using specialized anagramming software, it seems the average person would rather play a few games against some friends and learn new words along the way.

I think the interesting thing about this is that people are beginning to realise just how easy it is to get moderately good at the game after only a few months of moderate practice. Since the lexicon is fairly balanced between normal/rare words (in everyday English) having common letters, you will get a large number of rare words that come up quite often. It's this extra knowledge of frequently occurring rare words that would allow a mediocre Apterite to win a few games on the show. But even in this area, a regular viewer of the show should have picked up a lot of these words from Dictionary Corner anyway.

As far as top players are concerned, I'm not entirely sure that much has changed. There are still large depths of the dictionary that no single player has entirely learnt. Moderate practice on Apterous might yield LARIATS, but it's likely only some players will have learnt SALARIAT (LARIATS+A), and among them only a couple might know ASTRAGALI (SALARIAT+G, the plural of a word in my normal vocabulary fyi). That's what makes watching top Apterites (or even non-Apterites) interesting to me, when those (not necessarily rare in everyday English) words come out that bring you to a standstill, like Steve Briers' double-darren spot of PESTICIDE during the CofC. Another point worthy of note is that looking at the octochamp stats on cdb, even a player as strong as Kirk is no order of magnitude stronger than the top players from before Apterous existed.

My final point is that there have always been octochamp players that are simply too strong for the average player at home. Maybe the difference now is that there might be a couple more of them each series, and maybe they'll be somewhat stronger on average than past octochamps. This is still fairly speculative since we're yet to see a series of all octochamps, nor have we had enough Apterite octochamps to compare against those from the past. Even if this is turns out to be true, at least we shall have some titanic battles during the series finals.

[Jon Corby]

I think Clare Sudbery's "guide to playing Countdown" has had more impact than apterous tbf.


It is an interesting point though, and one I considered as far back when I filmed (and had written a PC Countdown game and typed the ODE into it virtually by hand). However, I didn't really get much time to practise with it because I only ordered the correct dictionary when I got my audition, by time I filmed my heats I was up to the I's and I only finished entering the dictionary by time I filmed the finals. But, it's definitely a huge advantage, and my dad and I discussed it on the way home after the finals. I don't know precisely how Conor trained, but considering he had web pages of 8 letter stems it seems unlikely that these were created just from manual dictionary research.

[JackHurst]

I'm waiting for someone to get GIAOURS.

[Jeffrey Burgin]

Funnily enough, my Dad brought up this issue just the other day. As a non-Apterite, he didn't exactly say it had killed Countdown but he did say if 'all your lot' are on the show it probably means in future quarter-finals will be dominated by Apterites, which arguably is a bit unfair on non-Apterites or indeed those who just don't know about the game. I only joined by complete chance when trawling through The Countdown Page's accounts of experiences and spotting it in a brief aside; I had searched for online games and aids before but because Apterous does not come up under 'Countdown game' on Google it's almost impossible to find. I don't personally derive as much pleasure from contestants finding impossible words as I know very often they are just memorised, but similarly I would never have found some of the words in my show without the help of Apterous. A perfect example was my audition- in the first round, the word ROMANIZES was there (a word I find easily now) but as I had not yet joined Apterous I had no knowledge of it, therefore putting me at a disadvantage. I don't think Apterous has or will kill Countdown, but possibly informing people of the game's existence pre-audition or pre-recording might level out the playing field a bit.

[Matthew Green]

Ok, let me first clarify that I am not criticising apterous in any way- I actually think its the best computer game since Champ Man 2 and praise doesnt come higher than that. The title was also over-dramatic so people would read!
Nor am I criticising any apterites themselves, Innis, Jimmy, Kirk etc have done amazingly well and I'm sure Andrew and Chris will too.

I also agree that I articulated my point about as well as Jason Larsen usually does.

A better example of a 'pure' player was that very well spoken Scottish guy (Michael McDonald-Cooper?) from s58 who was great to watch and very likeable. I cant imagine he spent much time researching stems online. And Kai in his heats seemed to be playing purely off raw talent. Nick Wainwright, Cate Henderson, James Hurrell and Aaron Webber are all recent Octochamps who were more natural although I may be wrong.

Overall I think Countdown has become like Womens Tennis. The top players are monsters and very good at what they do- its just not very exciting. Watching Innis at the moment is as impressive but as predictable as watching Venus on the other channel.

[David Williams]

Artesian abstainer ascertain steradian rhatanies. Naartjies marinates aerations. Septarian reattains. Fascinating stuff, isn't it? You probably also know that strained resinated gradients tarnished notarised dipterans, and tardiness transited indurates.

An hour with the downloaded dictionary. Give me another thirty minutes and I'll be word-perfect on every eight and nine letter word containing the letters RETAINS. There were four nine letter words available in the shows I was on. Two are in this list. The other two contain six of those seven letters. Give me till tomorrow to learn all that lot.

That's the future.

[Marc Meakin]

I have noticed, just lately, the quality of number solutions has improved with Apterite participation, although solutions sometimes are not written down

This is a habit on Apterous that most of us are guilty of

[Philip Jarvis]

Thanks for the spoiler. I haven't watched the last couple of shows yet, the first one being Innis's debut. Try thinking a bit more carefully before posting.

Oh shit, so you don't know that Innis hit 164 on his debut?

It wasn't exactly a surprise to hear Innis had won his first few games (with all respect to Clive and the others) but it does piss me off when people do this. Shouldn't this thread be moved into the spoilers now?
EDIT: That was quick!

What's this? Did Matthew Green start this thread (containing spoilers) in another part of the forum? Surely not.

The following is an extract of what he had to say about me on 21 June after I had already apologised for making a similar unintentional mistake -

You twat. .............. Shame on you Jarvis.

Matthew - It's hard to believe that a mere 8 days later, you made the same mistake yourself!! Personally, I prefer not to lower myself to making abusive comments about others. However, it's apparent that you have different standards to me. So, unless you would prefer to issue an apology, perhaps you could answer the following question.

If you think I'm a "twat", how would you describe yourself?

[Matthew Green]

Hmmm, if you re-read the post you might be able to work out that it was all a joke. http://www.c4countdown.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2325

Did you really believe I was living in a travelodge waiting to watch it on Austrian on-demand?

But now I think you're a twat. And your poetry is shit. Really shit.

[Philip Jarvis]

Hmmm, if you re-read the post you might be able to work out that it was all a joke. http://www.c4countdown.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2325

Did you really believe I was living in a travelodge waiting to watch it on Austrian on-demand?

But now I think you're a twat. And your poetry is shit. Really shit.

True to form as usual. No I didn't think you were living in a travelodge. I just think you're a sorry individual with a sick sense of humour in trying to associate yourself with that monster.

It's about time you grew up.

[Matthew Green]

It's about time you grew up.

'He who remains like a child shall enter the kingdom of heaven' Jesus Christ

And whats wrong with Fritzl anyway? Its not like he ever killed anyone.

[Kai Laddiman]

Venus on the other channel

COUNTDOWN SPOILERZ ONLY

[Michael Wallace]

Matthew - It's hard to believe that a mere 8 days later, you made the same mistake yourself!!

To be fair, I think it's a bit much to try and compare giving away that someone wins a heat game (or two) and some of the words, to spoiling the entire series finals (but you did apologise for it, which is more than a lot do on here).

[Jojo Apollo]

Me personally, I like seeing all the great apterites on the tv show, it raises the bar. Sort of like Usain Bolt raising the bar in the 100m/200m.

You must be thinking of the high jump. Or possibly the pole vault.

Usain Bolt would probably break those world records too.

[Matthew Green]

Venus on the other channel

COUNTDOWN SPOILERZ ONLY

How is that a spoiler?

[Oliver Garner]

A perfect example was my audition- in the first round, the word ROMANIZES was there

[Charlie Reams]

in future quarter-finals will be dominated by Apterites, which arguably is a bit unfair on non-Apterites or indeed those who just don't know about the game.

The only person I've seen arguing this is Cate "Psycho" Henderson. Everyone is welcome to play. If you don't have the Internet skills to find it then that's too bad for you, but it's no more "unfair" than some people buying the correct dictionary before they go on and some not. This forum has prominent links and a good Google rank, and Apterous is linked prominently from its front page, so it's really not that hard to find.

[Matthew Green]

I'm not arguing that its unfair BTW (I couldnt really give a shit who wins or loses a game of countdown in the grand scheme of things), just that its not very captivating these days.

[Charlie Reams]

I'm not arguing that its unfair BTW (I couldnt really give a shit who wins or loses a game of countdown in the grand scheme of things), just that its not very captivating these days.

I think, as Sid says, that your decreased enjoyment is more to do with your own improvement at the game, for which apterous can only bear as much blame as you. But FTR I wasn't offended at all by the original post, it's a legitimate question to ask and the deliberate sensationalism amused me.

[Jon Corby]

I'm not arguing that its unfair BTW (I couldnt really give a shit who wins or loses a game of countdown in the grand scheme of things), just that its not very captivating these days.

But again, maybe that's just for you - the casual viewer who doesn't know of the existence of apterous is surely just as likely to be wowed by Innis as you were by the likes Fell and Corby?

[Dinos Sfyris]

Usain Bolt

ABLUTIONS

[David Williams]

But again, maybe that's just for you - the casual viewer who doesn't know of the existence of apterous is surely just as likely to be wowed by Innis as you were by the likes Fell and Corby?

Nice one. Missed it on first reading. But we used to only get a Corby every few years, now there's one on every other week. Absolutely nothing against any of you as individuals, I'd do the same myself, but I don't think there's any doubt that apterous is changing Countdown, and we just have to hope it's not for the worse.

[Andy Thomson]

As a still-relative newcomer to the board and one who is firmly in the Old Codger bracket (my appearance was way back in 1985!), I'm in two minds on this issue. I think that most of the members of this board will be pro-apterous and the performances are invariably impressive - even stunning on occasions.

But I worry that the general public's perception might be somewhat less keen. I know from listening to colleagues in my office that many find it frustrating when contestants (seemingly deliberately but probably more likely because of their experience with Apterous) offer, say an 8-letter word which to the majority of people would be completely obscure when there is a perfectly good, everyday 8-letter alternative in the selection. Also (and I promise I mean no disrespect here - don't shoot the messenger) people tend to find a lot of these contestants just a little weird. Of course, that might be seen as a badge of honour!

I think the point I am making here is that, if large numbers of the TV audience should become disenchanted with the inevitability of Apterous victors and desert the programme, there is a danger that it could be taken off air.

Notice I haven't said whether or not I agree with the OP?

[Matt Morrison]

Also (and I promise I mean no disrespect here - don't shoot the messenger) people tend to find a lot of these contestants just a little weird.

Nightmare timing to post that comment after today's show. Innis looked utterly normal in comparison.

[Rosemary Roberts]

I wonder if we are slowly heading towards 2 different types of game:
the parlour game, in which I feel I can participate to some extent as a viewer,
and the more esoteric type of game, which alienates me.

I agree. I think that now I have seen just how good people can be, and seen here on the forum how they get that way, I am very much less likely to apply because I can see that I just don't have the - ahem - apteritude. If the game ever does boil down to just apterites versus cannon fodder then maybe Damian should introduce a league system.

[Michael Wallace]

I know from listening to colleagues in my office that many find it frustrating when contestants (seemingly deliberately but probably more likely because of their experience with Apterous) offer, say an 8-letter word which to the majority of people would be completely obscure when there is a perfectly good, everyday 8-letter alternative in the selection.

I have wondered this, since it was something I'd presumed, but don't know anyone who watches the show in a sufficiently casual way to get an opinion from.

[Clive Brooker]

I think the point I am making here is that, if large numbers of the TV audience should become disenchanted with the inevitability of Apterous victors and desert the programme, there is a danger that it could be taken off air.

I haven't seen any serious analysis of viewing trends since the new team took over. Does anyone have access to anything like this?

What does seem to be happening is a dramatic fall-off in the number of people applying - for whatever reason. Some of the current contestants were recruited three weeks before recording, and if the anecdotes on Mike Brown's site can be taken at face value, nowadays the team has to be far less choosy.

[Phil Reynolds]

Diverging somewhat from the original point, I'd be very interested to hear Damian's views on how the existence of apterous has altered the experience of making the programme. In the past, the most that Damian and the other members of the production team would know about a contestant when they turned up for their first recording would be how well they did at their audition, plus some basic personal info from their application form. Nowadays there is a steady influx of contestants whom Damian will not only know a good deal about from the forums, but perhaps have regularly played against personally. While professionalism will demand that all new contestants are treated equally and without favouritism, there must inevitably be a frisson of excitement amongst the team when certain players whose form is already well known arrive at the studios.

[Jeffrey Burgin]

The only person I've seen arguing this is Cate "Psycho" Henderson. Everyone is welcome to play. If you don't have the Internet skills to find it then that's too bad for you, but it's no more "unfair" than some people buying the correct dictionary before they go on and some not. This forum has prominent links and a good Google rank, and Apterous is linked prominently from its front page, so it's really not that hard to find.

Fair point, but I think there's a difference between buying a dictionary and learning words as opposed to actually playing against someone or realising that there are a lot of words that appear very often in selections (ADROIT and ASTROID are two examples off the top of my head) that one could only really realise having played many games online. Admittedly I didn't think of the forum being prominent, but as someone who looked for practice aids pre-audition I never thought to look for 'Countdown forum', with other searches such as 'Countdown', 'Countdown game' or 'Countdown practice' generating no hints of Apterous. I'm not saying that Apterous gives players an illegal advantage, just that the advantage it gives them is widening the gap and that this advantage should be extended to all in the interests of keeping series competitive.

[Jon O'Neill]

Overall I think Countdown has become like Womens Tennis. The top players are monsters and very good at what they do- its just not very exciting. Watching Innis at the moment is as impressive but as predictable as watching Venus on the other channel.

So far, this is the closest approximation of my opinion.

[Charlie Reams]

this advantage should be extended to all in the interests of keeping series competitive.

By the time you audition it's usually too late (qv Sudbury), and I can't see any way to reach people before that. If we reward people with the motivation to go out and find a practice aid then so much the better.

[Darren Carter]

I coincidentally thought about this the other day, what with the likes of Innis, Andrew and Chris coming up in Series 61, the finals are likely to be one big aptfest.

Playing Apterous is practically the same as playing along with the episodes on TV - the more episodes you watch, the more words you will remember - likewise the more games of Apterous you play, the more words you will remember. Even with remembering these words, it is still a skill to spot them in the selection. I bet not even 1 in 10 people who go on the show are Apterists (is that the right word?!?). It has definitely not killed countdown - Apterous has made me enjoy countdown even more.

A perfect example was my audition- in the first round, the word ROMANIZES was there (a word I find easily now) but as I had not yet joined Apterous I had no knowledge of it, therefore putting me at a disadvantage.

You must have had the same audition as I had. I was slightly gutted when I declared ROMANISE for an 8! But I did actually know the word before playing on Apterous, presumably from hearing it being offered by Suzie.

[Jimmy Gough]

Interesting.

[D Eadie]

Blimey, too much to read here all at once, but here goes....

Apterous for me anyway, hasn't affected Countdown at all. The Beevers, Kirks, Fells etc, were always out there before, but now there is a place for them to come together, play online and practice.

The world gasped at the sub 4-minute mile, its all about progression as technology becomes more readily available. I don't have a problem with it. We've always known when the better players were coming up, because they were always auditioned. Julian Fell came along to see me in Leeds, never heard of him before he walked in the door, likewise Scott Mearns and 50 others i can't be arsed to try and recall. Craig Beevers, i auditioned him in Newcastle, again never heard of him before, likewise Junaid in 1998, Andrew Hulme in 1997 or whenever it was.

What you guys have to remember is that the overwhelming majority of people who watch the show at home, don't actually give a fig about the contestants, who they are, where they emerged from etc, they play the game themselves, compete against themselves, and from time to time will doff their cap in the direction of the contestants when they see something extraordinary come up. But by and large they are taking part on their own level, scoring their own words etc and just enjoying the 45 minutes of fun.

Has apterous affected Countdown, not one bit in my book. In many ways its improved what is set out to do, which is to help educate the people who watch. When words like TOWAI are played, people at home learn new things, so there can only be good to come out of that. I also stand by my belief that playing online and playing in studio are two massively different concepts, and being good at home means nothing.

Hats off to Charlie and apterous as far as i am concerned, i think its terrific. Oh, and doing a quick calculation, there may be around 7 or 8 apterous players coming up in Series 61, and perhaps a few who will join after having recorded. We have around 110 contestants per series, so keeping things in perspective is pretty important here. Not sure i understand the problem it causes if contestants choose to use apterous while applying or training for Countdown. We've had around 5000 people take part over the years, and around 20 have been or have become apterous members. Over to you chaps.