c4countdown

Many thousands of protesters all over the UK went on a pro-Palestinian march but it doesn't neccessarily mean these protesters are ALL anti jew but more likely anti Israel.
I do worry that Jewish people in the UK may be targeted however.

Yes.

David Baddiel did a good brief interview on a BBC podcast recently, heard it in BBC Sounds. He explained how people often conflate Israel with Judaism.

Callum Todd wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 4:28 pm Yes.

David Baddiel did a good brief interview on a BBC podcast recently, heard it in BBC Sounds. He explained how people often conflate Israel with Judaism.

I'm still learning about Zionism

Yes. You can also be pro-Palestinian without being anti-Israel or anti-Zionist, and vice versa. It's very easy to sympathise with the other cause if you sympathise with one, as they are so similar. Both are peoples with a valid claim to the same land, who have been rejected and oppressed for many years by most of the surrounding countries in the Middle East. Both are entitled to land, peace and self-determination.

Unfortunately, the idealism of the above is shattered by unlawful occupation of land, inequity of society and opportunities, hate preaching, terrorism, war and so on. I still like to think the average Palestinian or Israeli citizen wants a peaceful and neighbourly coexistence, but one can see where the distrust and extremism on both sides is born from.

Outside of the Middle East (e.g. in Europe) I'd say it's more attractive to be pro-Palestinian if you're feeling like taking a side, because they are fewer in numbers and resources than Israelis, and are trying to eke out an existence behind literal and societal walls. History is important here though and I am pro both. I believe it's unfair and racist to say that one nation has a right to freedom and self-determination and another doesn't. Yes there's the horrors and atrocities that are committed by armies and governments, but that doesn't mean that an entire nation should be made pariahs.

Anti-Israelism or Anti-Zionism is unquestionably closer to anti-Semitism than is pro-Palestinianism, but again one can be anti-Israel or anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. Some rhetorics clearly cross the line though. In a similar vein, anti-Palestinianism could cross the line into racism against Arabs or Muslims, even though they shouldn't be conflated.

I'm appalled by what's going on in Gaza and Israel and I feel just about brave enough to post on c4c but I do fear for mine and my family's safety here in the UK (as do Muslim communities), because of the common conflation of Jews and Muslims with Israel and Palestine. I wouldn't want to post on a large social networking site about this.

Also I re-read that post a few times before posting it as I feel more pressured to be word-perfect in case I imply something that I didn't intend. That's because I'm not a disinterested observer in this and I do worry about a backlash. I'm still not entirely happy with the post but I felt like I was in a position to respond, like I did on the Religion thread a while back.

Adam Gillard wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:35 pm Also I re-read that post a few times before posting it as I feel more pressured to be word-perfect in case I imply something that I didn't intend. That's because I'm not a disinterested observer in this and I do worry about a backlash. I'm still not entirely happy with the post but I felt like I was in a position to respond, like I did on the Religion thread a while back.

You are safe to post here but keep away from Twatter, Facebook and the like.
You make a lot of sense and I too have kept away from the open social network as you need a skin like hide to speak openly politically.
I do have a skin like hide but I would feel compelled to argue with everyone I didn't agree with and I probably wouldn't get much sleep

I think that was a good post, Adam. I know you probably think I've posted things that have gone a bit far over the years, but I think we're basically in agreement over this. The vast majority of the civilians, whether Palestinian or Israeli, are not where people's anger should be directed. Hamas is not the Palestinian people and the Israeli government is not the Israeli people.

It's obviously very complex and people can hide their racist beliefs behind their words, but also people get accused of racism when they are e.g. criticising those in power. People need to be able to engage sensibly on the subject.

Adam, those insights are valuable. Thank you for sharing-has helped my understanding on the matter a lot!

Agree with everyone else. Really appreciated your post Adam.

Agree with the above sentiments Adam. A well balanced and thoughtful post.

Not according to the Guardian

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67122609

I'm looking forward to Owen Jones comments

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:39 pm Not according to the Guardian

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67122609

I'm looking forward to Owen Jones comments

Do you think it's anti-Semitic? The Shylock link seems tenuous at best.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:39 pm Not according to the Guardian

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67122609

I'm looking forward to Owen Jones comments

Is it not too soon?

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:46 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:39 pm Not according to the Guardian

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67122609

I'm looking forward to Owen Jones comments

Do you think it's anti-Semitic? The Shylock link seems tenuous at best.

No, I posted it as a topic to discuss.
Its actually based on a cartoon of LB Johnson during the Vietnam war.
I think it's a case of the intention of the cartoonist being misinterpreted although he has posted a cartoon of Corbin that was a bit closer to anti semitism.

I see this in a similar light to how danny Baker tweeted a picture of a monkey leaving a hospital when prince Archie was born.
It was meant a s dig about the aristocracy rather than racist but it's timing was wrong.

I'm sure you have worked out that I mentioned Owen Jones because he works for the Guardian

Mark James wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 6:32 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:39 pm Not according to the Guardian

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67122609

I'm looking forward to Owen Jones comments

Is it not too soon?

Not for posting here but certainly for a national (toilet) paper