Countdown adjudication dictionary

[Fiona T]

There have long been whinges and niggles, but this thread

http://www.c4countdown.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=15774

would suggest that the online dictionary used by countdown is no longer fit for purpose (especially shocking since they charge for access!)

Is it time to go back to the printed copy and pencam (still used on catsdown I believe?)

Or fully radical and adopt CSW21 - I can see a number of pros and cons - there's probably others

Advantages

Definitive word list - no subjective judgements required
Crossover potential - a lot of keen scrabblers who've never been near apto would feel more tempted to apply (it is a fact that many are put off by the dictionary differences) and countdowners can dip their toes in the murky waters of scrabble. (Scrabble is a pretty different demographic to your average countdowner so potentially more diversity on screen)
Slur words have been removed (although this was pretty controversial) - far less risk of having offensive content cut/removed

Disdavantages

We've all gotta learn a new lexicon (including Susie). We'd all whinge. A lot.
It's oft been said that CD have some sort of deal with Oxford dictionaries so might not be as simple as just changing.

Any thoughts?

[Philip A]

There’s no perfect solution. I wouldn’t go back to a paper dictionary - so much more convenient to search for words online now. CSW21 already contains its own bizarre content, plus extremely rare plurals of nouns which are commonly mass nouns, so that’s also a no from me. I can understand the reasons for the suggestions in the OP though.

I’d instead slim the content in Oxford Dictionaries Premium down to exclude words which come directly from the Oxford English Dictionary (ODP does actually contain some OED content, but not all), especially because they lack clarity on whether a noun is countable (and some of them are blatantly uncountable, like OMALGIA) as do other obsolete and rare words like AMBEER and its variant spellings. Regional spellings like ONESTEEAD and RUINAAYTE, which return barely any Google searches compared to the CoC XV and XVI conundrums (and recent finals), are also probably better off kept in a separate dictionary; I can’t see any lexicographer on Countdown regularly spotting them.

The content in ODP has made the gap between online players and home players too great now, in my view. The competition is not as level. Gone are the days when competitive home players can beat practically anybody. Now good home players who’d average centuries will at some point run into a long-time Apterite and lose 140-40.

Oxford and Chambers appear to have abandoned paper publication, so I think going back to a paper dictionary would be turning the clock back. TBH, I actually like ODP; all the common and common-ish words are clearly explained, and it is a living dictionary which is updated yearly instead of every 3-6 years and therefore largely represents current usage. But I think a slimmed-down lexicon would make the game more accessible and level the playing field.

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

A rejection of several extant dictionaries in favour of an imaginary one that may never exist.

This is not a practical suggestion.

[Fiona T]

There’s no perfect solution. I wouldn’t go back to a paper dictionary - so much more convenient to search for words online now. CSW21 already contains its own bizarre content, plus extremely rare plurals of nouns which are commonly mass nouns, so that’s also a no from me. I can understand the reasons for the suggestions in the OP though.

Bizarre content in itself isn't necessarily an issue is it?

I’d instead slim the content in Oxford Dictionaries Premium down to exclude words which come directly from the Oxford English Dictionary (ODP does actually contain some OED content, but not all), especially because they lack clarity on whether a noun is countable (and some of them are blatantly uncountable, like OMALGIA) as do other obsolete and rare words like AMBEER and its variant spellings. Regional spellings like ONESTEEAD and RUINAAYTE, which return barely any Google searches compared to the CoC XV and XVI conundrums (and recent finals), are also probably better off kept in a separate dictionary; I can’t see any lexicographer on Countdown regularly spotting them.

I'm not sure how you do that. I can't see anything on the RUINATE page that suggest the alternative spellings have come from the OED content - how would you identify that? Even if you can, it seems to add yet another layer of complexity where mistakes can be made, both by potential contestants studying and by the countdown team adjudicating, and doesn't appear to solve the basic dictionary problems of whether, when a player offers OAKIEST or MILEAGES or CROWDIES or VOETSAKED it should be allowed or not.

The content in ODP has made the gap between online players and home players too great now, in my view. The competition is not as level. Gone are the days when competitive home players can beat practically anybody. Now good home players who’d average centuries will at some point run into a long-time Apterite and lose 140-40.

I think that ship has sailed. If people want to get good enough to win a series, they study. Same as you study if you want to win mastermind.

But I think a slimmed-down lexicon would make the game more accessible and level the playing field.

How does a potential player, and the countdown adjudication team identify whether a word is in the lexicon or not?

[Steve Hyde]

Now good home players who’d average centuries will at some point run into a long-time Apterite and lose 140-40.

It was 117-77, I'll have you know

[Philip A]

Sorry for my bizarre take, but just to be clear re RUINATE: the first definition of ruinate 2 is an exact match as it appears in the OED:
-
Forms: 1500s rewynate, 1500s–1600s ruynate, 1500s– ruinate, 1600s ruinate (past participle), 1800s– ruinaayte (English regional (Berkshire)), 1800s– ruineyat (English regional (Isle of Wight)); also Scottish pre-1700 rewynat (past participle), pre-1700 ruinat (past participle), pre-1700 ruinat, pre-1700 ruynate, pre-1700 rwinate.

1
To reduce (a person) to a state of complete poverty; to deprive of moral or social standing. Also reflexive. Compare ruin. Now frequently regional..
-

Of the 8 spellings in the OED, 2 of them appear in ODP.

I know this doesn’t make my comment any less crazy but I hope this clears up that there is some OED content in ODP.

[Fiona T]

Sorry for my bizarre take, but just to be clear re RUINATE: the first definition of ruinate 2 is an exact match as it appears in the OED:
-
Forms: 1500s rewynate, 1500s–1600s ruynate, 1500s– ruinate, 1600s ruinate (past participle), 1800s– ruinaayte (English regional (Berkshire)), 1800s– ruineyat (English regional (Isle of Wight)); also Scottish pre-1700 rewynat (past participle), pre-1700 ruinat (past participle), pre-1700 ruinat, pre-1700 ruynate, pre-1700 rwinate.

1
To reduce (a person) to a state of complete poverty; to deprive of moral or social standing. Also reflexive. Compare ruin. Now frequently regional..
-

Of the 8 spellings in the OED, 2 of them appear in ODP.

I know this doesn’t make my comment any less crazy but I hope this clears up that there is some OED content in ODP.

Agreed - but looking at ODP, how would you know which spellings to exclude? Are you suggesting Susie cross references both? Which should she exclude - is ruinate itself OK?

The purpose of this thread is idle speculation (I don't for one second imagine production will take any notice of it!) about how countdown could adjudicate their game in a fair and consistent way - how does your suggestion work to achieve that?

[Rhys Benjamin]

Someone should just have a quiet word with Oxford to publish a new paper dictionary every 10 years or so, because the suggestion that there will never be a post-2010 paper dictionary from Oxford is a bit ludicrous, frankly. Won't people in the future want to have one for archiving and archaeological purposes?

Obviously ODE3 is now somewhat obsolete, as is COD12 (published 2011), but if we had a new version of those published today I'd be inclined to use them. Is ODO really comparable to an updated ODE3? Because I highly doubt it since the wordlist exploded in 2015.

[Gavin Chipper]

Someone should just have a quiet word with Oxford

This reminds me of this thread back in 2013. As I said at the time, Countdown must be brilliant advertising for them, but they don't give anything in return, like a dictionary that specifies what the words are, which would be so low effort for them. Time to write again maybe?

[Callum Todd]

All this talk of what a dictionary should be like for Countdown is pretty meaningless unless Countdown has any influence over the dictionary, which I don't think it does (no idea what this legendary "deal with Oxford" looks like).

As far as I can see Countdown just has to choose an existing dictionary and use it as it is. Given this, the current choice is clearly not fit for purpose at present. If there are no obstacles or downsides to changing dictionary other than Countdowners having to relearn their mental wordlist of allowable words, time to bite the bullet and go to either CSW or the latest printed ODE with pencam from the start of the next series.

[Mark Deeks]

The content in ODP has made the gap between online players and home players too great now, in my view.

I think this is the main point. The nicheness of some of the new online stuff is fun for the word nerds, but not good for the overall game.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Someone should just have a quiet word with Oxford

This reminds me of this thread back in 2013. As I said at the time, Countdown must be brilliant advertising for them, but they don't give anything in return, like a dictionary that specifies what the words are, which would be so low effort for them. Time to write again maybe?

When you’re an MP caseworker, my current thought is “write to your MP”.

Dear [whoever],

I am writing to ask if you, as my Member of Parliament, could write to Oxford University Press who haven’t responded to my query for 9 years, requesting clarification of various aspects of what was then the ODE3…

[Gavin Chipper]

Someone should just have a quiet word with Oxford

This reminds me of this thread back in 2013. As I said at the time, Countdown must be brilliant advertising for them, but they don't give anything in return, like a dictionary that specifies what the words are, which would be so low effort for them. Time to write again maybe?

When you’re an MP caseworker, my current thought is “write to your MP”.

Dear [whoever],

I am writing to ask if you, as my Member of Parliament, could write to Oxford University Press who haven’t responded to my query for 9 years, requesting clarification of various aspects of what was then the ODE3…

I'll be writing to our mutual acquaintance then...

[Fiona T]

Blimey pretty sure my MP would file my correspondence straight in his trash folder. Seriously though, dictionary detail is hardly the remit of an MP is it? Cycle lanes, loan charge suicides, bees being poisoned, yes, but comparatives of adjectives, not so much...

Edit - realised this was probably a joke (wasn't it???)

[Gavin Chipper]

To clarify matters, I won't be writing to James Cleverly on this subject.

[Fiona T]

Yeah, I'm stupid. Best ignored

[Rhys Benjamin]

It would be down to the whims of the caseworker and the MP. Certainly I like to do everything possible rather than just go “pfft, too trivial”. Obviously our casework is confidential so I can’t give examples.

[Elliott Mellor]

To clarify matters, I won't be writing to James Cleverly on this subject.

Is this because you think the issue is too complicated for him to understand, or because you don't feel like writing to an MP is the way to solve this?

[Fiona T]

Dear constituent
Hahahahahahah. Now fuck off.
Love, Your MP xxxx

[Gavin Chipper]

To clarify matters, I won't be writing to James Cleverly on this subject.

Is this because you think the issue is too complicated for him to understand, or because you don't feel like writing to an MP is the way to solve this?

At least one of the above.

[Marc Meakin]

Bit late for me but if Countdown adopted Collins as its dictionary rhere would be a lot more interest from the Scrabble commuity

[Fiona T]

A potential CSW disadvantage from apterous' pov is that it would make it much easier for people to cheat!

[Marc Meakin]

A potential CSW disadvantage from apterous' pov is that it would make it much easier for people to cheat!

That's gone over my head

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

Advantages

Definitive word list - no subjective judgements required
Crossover potential - a lot of keen scrabblers who've never been near apto would feel more tempted to apply (it is a fact that many are put off by the dictionary differences) and countdowners can dip their toes in the murky waters of scrabble. (Scrabble is a pretty different demographic to your average countdowner so potentially more diversity on screen)

Disdavantages

We've all gotta learn a new lexicon (including Susie). We'd all whinge. A lot.
It's oft been said that CD have some sort of deal with Oxford dictionaries so might not be as simple as just changing.
Slur words have been removed (although this was pretty controversial) - far less risk of having offensive content cut/removed

Just had to quickly fix that for you!

The obvious solution is to implement CSW (even if it must be the new CSWoke).
Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.
I see no reason why it would increase Apto cheating though? Seems like the sort of non argument someone who is afraid of change might make. (obv not a dig at you Fiona, just that it seems illogical.)

[Fiona T]

Advantages

Definitive word list - no subjective judgements required
Crossover potential - a lot of keen scrabblers who've never been near apto would feel more tempted to apply (it is a fact that many are put off by the dictionary differences) and countdowners can dip their toes in the murky waters of scrabble. (Scrabble is a pretty different demographic to your average countdowner so potentially more diversity on screen)

Disdavantages

We've all gotta learn a new lexicon (including Susie). We'd all whinge. A lot.
It's oft been said that CD have some sort of deal with Oxford dictionaries so might not be as simple as just changing.
Slur words have been removed (although this was pretty controversial) - far less risk of having offensive content cut/removed

Just had to quickly fix that for you!

The obvious solution is to implement CSW (even if it must be the new CSWoke).
Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.
I see no reason why it would increase Apto cheating though? Seems like the sort of non argument someone who is afraid of change might make. (obv not a dig at you Fiona, just that it seems illogical.)

I think the change would be a good thing for all the reasons stated (although would whinge as above!). But given that scrabble solvers are 10 a penny, and the only accurate countdown solver is apterous, it would presumably be much easier for people to cheat undetected.

[David Williams]

Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.

In similar news, Manchester City and PSG are hoping the next head of UEFA will have the vision to change the Financial Fair Play rules so that clubs without rich owners are disadvantaged in some way.

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

Not similar.

[Dame Eadie]

Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.

Okay, let's play. What exactly am i supposed to be changing to and why?
The dictionary isn't perfect, but are any of them?
It's not long since we had the best C of C ever and two highest scores of 154 in pretty close succession, all of which happened using the current dictionary set up. Am i missing something?

[Rhys Benjamin]

Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.

Okay, let's play. What exactly am i supposed to be changing to and why?
The dictionary isn't perfect, but are any of them?
It's not long since we had the best C of C ever and two highest scores of 154 in pretty close succession, all of which happened using the current dictionary set up. Am i missing something?

Basically some believe this to be a bad thing, the current dictionary contains too many obscure words and is also not readily available to future contestants. They would like you to change over to CSW.

(I would rather keep Oxford for tradition's sake, but lean on them heavily to produce a coherent A-Z word list every now and then...)

[Graeme Cole]

Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.

Okay, let's play. What exactly am i supposed to be changing to and why?
The dictionary isn't perfect, but are any of them?
It's not long since we had the best C of C ever and two highest scores of 154 in pretty close succession, all of which happened using the current dictionary set up. Am i missing something?

Basically some believe this to be a bad thing, the current dictionary contains too many obscure words and is also not readily available to future contestants. They would like you to change over to CSW.

(I would rather keep Oxford for tradition's sake, but lean on them heavily to produce a coherent A-Z word list every now and then...)

I get that to some extent you're playing devil's advocate here, but obscure words aren't an Oxford-only issue. Have a look at this list of high-probability CSW sevens. Loads of obscure words in there.

CSW isn't exactly freely-available, either. CSW word checkers that take a word and give you a simple yes or no are all over the place, but the actual raw word list is more restricted.

[Dame Eadie]

Basically some believe this to be a bad thing, the current dictionary contains too many obscure words and is also not readily available to future contestants. They would like you to change over to CSW.

Okay - so 'ready available' means free of charge i take it.
No idea who's done the research on this, but if the main gripe is too many obscure words, then CSW isn't the answer at all. The only difference with CSW and OUP is that they have different obscure words, each allowed on one site and not on the other. I don't see what it fixes TBH.

[Steve Hyde]

If Lexico still existed I don't think there would be much of a problem tbh. Mostly I miss there being a free way to check whether or not I've just made up a word that dictionary corner missed

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.

Okay, let's play. What exactly am i supposed to be changing to and why?
The dictionary isn't perfect, but are any of them?
It's not long since we had the best C of C ever and two highest scores of 154 in pretty close succession, all of which happened using the current dictionary set up. Am i missing something?

I checked through every CoC since the dawn of time to fact-check your assumption, and indeed you are correct. It was the best one of all time. Congrats to all involved.

Don't think anyone here is suggesting Countdown is flawed or not a great game-show.
And it has been great lately.
The proposal is that it can be clearer, fairer, and as a result - even better.
Ye currently use a version of Oxford for adjudication.
The argument is that it is not fit for purpose. It would be better if a word game had a dedicated and comprehensive word list for adjudication that is never open to interpretation (like e.g. DEFAMOUS being DQed for no reason )
As it turns out there is already an existing version of exactly that! A regularly updated word list specifically designed for use to adjudicate a word game... and that is CSW.

If you switch to CSW it has advantages and disadvantages as outlined by the OP.

If you decide to do it... it has the added disadvantages that:-
1. There would be even MORE of the insufferable know-it-all dictionary swallowers partaking, as you'd have the Apto nerds AND the Scrabble nerds forming an unholy union. (No-one will want to DL 50000 of those images.)
2. Annoying ex contestants like me and Fiona would be smug as we'd have gotten our way.
3. Added pressure will mount for you to change the scoring whereby words containing JQXZ score more points.

As far as regular viewers are concerned, I think it would not make a jot of a difference. There'd still be plenty of obscure words offered. (If the change to CSW were made before 2015, there'd be a more marked difference as ODE did not enter silly season until halfway through that year.) Maybe a slight increase in the number of high level players per series, but I imagine -in practise- that would also be negligible.

CSW isn't exactly freely-available, either. CSW word checkers that take a word and give you a simple yes or no are all over the place, but the actual raw word list is more restricted.

This is so obviously a comment from someone from outside of the world of Scrabble.
The new CSW lists are always freely available to all in a digestible form.
The page you linked to was an unusual request made by WESPA due to the exceptional circumstances of the switchover to CSW21... which had proved so controversial they were trying to gatekeep the wordlist. An attempt that was not successful, as a few of the national associations (particularly in sensible non-woke places like Africa) published the list publicly in spite of WESPA's lame request not to.

[Marc Meakin]

The OUP is a more fluid dictionary which on paper, ironically, seems more progressive but its always nicer to be able to check from a book like in the good old days of pen cam and OED bound books for the series champion
But I'm much more of a luddite and still cling to 20th century ways.
I still send post cards too

[Graeme Cole]

CSW isn't exactly freely-available, either. CSW word checkers that take a word and give you a simple yes or no are all over the place, but the actual raw word list is more restricted.

This is so obviously a comment from someone from outside of the world of Scrabble.
The new CSW lists are always freely available to all in a digestible form.
The page you linked to was an unusual request made by WESPA due to the exceptional circumstances of the switchover to CSW21... which had proved so controversial they were trying to gatekeep the wordlist. An attempt that was not successful, as a few of the national associations (particularly in sensible non-woke places like Africa) published the list publicly in spite of WESPA's lame request not to.

Well, I'd be happy to be proved wrong on this point. Do you have a link to where anyone can legally download the CSW word list? I was under the impression that it was copyrighted and only released under licence. I've found links to tools such as Zyzzyva which have the list built into it, but not a simple text file with all the words.

[Dame Eadie]

If Lexico still existed I don't think there would be much of a problem tbh. Mostly I miss there being a free way to check whether or not I've just made up a word that dictionary corner missed

Yeah, shame it's no longer free, but there's Lexplorer on Apterous which is pretty-much in synch with Countdown in terms of the dictionary, and buying the Premium subscription on Oxford works out at the equivalent of half a slice of bread a day.

[Dame Eadie]

Ye currently use a version of Oxford for adjudication.
The argument is that it is not fit for purpose.

Based on what though?
Where has this argument come from and what evidence is there? Fiona cited a previous thread where i mentioned a small bug in the programming had appeared. That doesn't render the whole thing useless. It's like saying a car is not fit for purpose just because the passenger side electric window isn't working.
As for me lacking 'vision', can you imagine changing the dictionary source on a whim? All the people who've purchased Oxford dictionaries, or bought a Premium online account, they'd feel pretty pissed off that we binned Oxford for CSW, with no real reason for doing so. Do you change mid-series, or give 6 months notice to contestants when you don't know who'll you be giving notice to? The fact is, Countdown is played at home as a relaxing TV game, it's only really a contest for those taking part - and anyone taking part, if they're good enough, can win the show regardless of which dictionary we use, merely by sticking to normal everyday words.
There isn't an issue worth acting on.

[Fiona T]

Okay, let's play. What exactly am i supposed to be changing to and why?
The dictionary isn't perfect, but are any of them?
It's not long since we had the best C of C ever and two highest scores of 154 in pretty close succession, all of which happened using the current dictionary set up. Am i missing something?

Basically some believe this to be a bad thing, the current dictionary contains too many obscure words and is also not readily available to future contestants. They would like you to change over to CSW.

(I would rather keep Oxford for tradition's sake, but lean on them heavily to produce a coherent A-Z word list every now and then...)

I get that to some extent you're playing devil's advocate here, but obscure words aren't an Oxford-only issue. Have a look at this list of high-probability CSW sevens. Loads of obscure words in there.


CSW isn't exactly freely-available, either. CSW word checkers that take a word and give you a simple yes or no are all over the place, but the actual raw word list is more restricted.

I certainly didn't make any argument about obscure words - that was Philip's fantasy dictionary!

I don't know if it's legal, but the full word list for csw is available from one of the links on this post

https://www.reddit.com/r/scrabble/comme ... _from_csw/


For me the main big pro for CSW is the definitive word list. No longer would contestants have to wonder whether to risk ideatums or mileages not knowing whether Susie would allow it. A word is either in, or not in - the rules of the game are the words, and at present, those rules are often subject to interpretation (plurals of mass nouns etc...). I'd argue CSW is more sensible in terms of comparatives and superlatives but that's incidental to the main point of a word either being in, or not.

The second big pro is that it is easily available - right now there is no way for the casual punter or wannabe contestant to check if their word is in, without paying for a subscription. Even if the full list linked above isn't 'legal' there are numerous websites and apps to check word validity.

[David Williams]

I've never been able to get away from the image of someone buying a quiz game and then spending many hours learning the answer to every single question. Amazing to watch them, but it does render the game pointless for their opposition, and fewer people will want to play them.

I suggest that Countdown should get as many different print dictionaries as they can lay their hands on, and pick a different one at random for each show. This would make no difference whatever to 90% of contestants and 99% of viewers, but it would make the programme rather more fun to watch.

[Dame Eadie]

I suggest that Countdown should get as many different print dictionaries as they can lay their hands on, and pick a different one at random for each show. This would make no difference whatever to 90% of contestants and 99% of viewers, but it would make the programme rather more fun to watch.

100% agree.

[Marc Meakin]

I suggest that Countdown should get as many different print dictionaries as they can lay their hands on, and pick a different one at random for each show. This would make no difference whatever to 90% of contestants and 99% of viewers, but it would make the programme rather more fun to watch.

100% agree.

As long as it wasn't a medical dictionary

Raking over the coals of the CSW19 expurgated words list why didn't they go the whole hog and change to a schools dictionary with say 20,000 core words with no profanities or slur words.
It would be a great leveller in both Countdown and Scrabble and less editing of WANKER and the like from Countdown episodes.

[Dame Eadie]

No longer would contestants have to wonder whether to risk ideatums or mileages not knowing whether Susie would allow it.

I don't believe people are wondering though. Where are they?

The second big pro is that it is easily available - right now there is no way for the casual punter or wannabe contestant to check if their word is in, without paying for a subscription. Even if the full list linked above isn't 'legal' there are numerous websites and apps to check word validity.

The subscription is £17 a year with free updates. The old paper dictionary was £35 with no updates. Oxford is easily available, you just need to pay for it. Happy to consider any solution to a problem, but the problem needs to exist in the first place.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Okay, let's play. What exactly am i supposed to be changing to and why?
The dictionary isn't perfect, but are any of them?
It's not long since we had the best C of C ever and two highest scores of 154 in pretty close succession, all of which happened using the current dictionary set up. Am i missing something?

Basically some believe this to be a bad thing, the current dictionary contains too many obscure words and is also not readily available to future contestants. They would like you to change over to CSW.

(I would rather keep Oxford for tradition's sake, but lean on them heavily to produce a coherent A-Z word list every now and then...)

I get that to some extent you're playing devil's advocate here, but obscure words aren't an Oxford-only issue. Have a look at this list of high-probability CSW sevens. Loads of obscure words in there.

CSW isn't exactly freely-available, either. CSW word checkers that take a word and give you a simple yes or no are all over the place, but the actual raw word list is more restricted.

Fair enough.

My own gripe with Oxford is the number of non-common non-ODE3 words which a pleb like me could hardly be expected to know.

The way I think of it is “if ODE4 were printed tomorrow, what would be in it - probably not [x]”.

For all its flaws, a print dictionary is at least fixed and immovable until the next edition. Thus my ideal solution isn’t in Countdown’s hands but OUP’s, and that’s print an actual dictionary for the first time since 2010 (ODE3) or 2011 (COD12)!

[Dame Eadie]

My own gripe with Oxford is the number of non-common non-ODE3 words which a pleb like me could hardly be expected to know.

The way I think of it is “if ODE4 were printed tomorrow, what would be in it - probably not [x]”.

For all its flaws, a print dictionary is at least fixed and immovable until the next edition. Thus my ideal solution isn’t in Countdown’s hands but OUP’s, and that’s print an actual dictionary for the first time since 2010 (ODE3) or 2011 (COD12)!

Rhys, nobody is gonna be printing anything in 2023, it's a paperless society these days everywhere you go, as i'm sure you know.
The gripe about non-common non-ODE3 words is fair enough, i get that, but in poker terms CSW can see Oxford and raise them when it comes to this.
Aside from it not being free of charge, i'm yet to see what the problem is with Oxford and have nothing of any concrete value that would make me think to change to CSW. Still happy to listen, but there's not much of a voice it seems.

[Marc Meakin]

Maybe a years subscription could be offered to winners insttead of a teapot as an option.

[Philip A]

Maybe a years subscription could be offered to winners insttead of a teapot as an option.

That’s a no from me, but I think they did use to offer lifetime subscriptions to Oxford online to series champions. Unsure if they still do that now, but still a good prize especially now the OEDs are out-of-print and aren’t awarded anymore.

[Marc Meakin]

Should be on the Co events thread but what dictionary is used there?

[Dan Byrom]

Aside from it not being free of charge, i'm yet to see what the problem is with Oxford and have nothing of any concrete value that would make me think to change to CSW. Still happy to listen, but there's not much of a voice it seems.

I don't feel particularly strongly - and I'd rather not have to relearn a new dictionary tbh, but the key difference is that csw has a well-defined list of words, and Oxford doesn't.

When I went on the show, I declared OUTLAIN, which was valid on apterous at the time but got disallowed by Susie. This sort of thing wouldn't happen with csw.

To be honest, I find it surprising that Oxford doesn't have a simple list of all the words in the dictionary

[Steve Hyde]

Should be on the Co events thread but what dictionary is used there?

Depends. At my one Co-event we used a combination ODO Premium, Lexplorer and Taking Tim Down's Word For It depending on what people had access to at each table

[Steve Hyde]

To be honest, I find it surprising that Oxford doesn't have a simple list of all the words in the dictionary

Would that even help? Since Countdown only allows a subset of them (e.g. no American spellings) and also allows some stuff that isn't in there (e.g. plurals of some but not all mass nouns, unspecified comparatives of single-syllable adjectives)

[Gavin Chipper]

My own gripe with Oxford is the number of non-common non-ODE3 words which a pleb like me could hardly be expected to know.

The way I think of it is “if ODE4 were printed tomorrow, what would be in it - probably not [x]”.

For all its flaws, a print dictionary is at least fixed and immovable until the next edition. Thus my ideal solution isn’t in Countdown’s hands but OUP’s, and that’s print an actual dictionary for the first time since 2010 (ODE3) or 2011 (COD12)!

Rhys, nobody is gonna be printing anything in 2023, it's a paperless society these days everywhere you go, as i'm sure you know.
The gripe about non-common non-ODE3 words is fair enough, i get that, but in poker terms CSW can see Oxford and raise them when it comes to this.
Aside from it not being free of charge, i'm yet to see what the problem is with Oxford and have nothing of any concrete value that would make me think to change to CSW. Still happy to listen, but there's not much of a voice it seems.

I think a better move than simply going to CSW would be to use the leverage of Countdown's free advertising of Oxford's dictionaries to politely suggest that they have a more watertight system of defining exactly what inflections/derivatives etc. are considered to be words according to their dictionary.

[Fiona T]

I don't believe people are wondering though. Where are they?

Well here's one

When I went on the show, I declared OUTLAIN, which was valid on apterous at the time but got disallowed by Susie.

And from another CoC contestant elsewhere

"Now that my TV appearances are done it's very nice not having to keep three separate lists - words, words which are on apto but I think Susie would disallow, and words not on apto that I think Susie would allow"

Perhaps it's a problem that only affects apterites though

[Marc Meakin]

Is it free advertising for OUP or do they pay for it in some way?
Maybe if Collins or Chambers offered to pay for their dictionary to be used or plugged then we would see a new dictionary.

Apropos of nothing.
I dont think viewers would have written in / emailed in on this subject pre Apterous

[Rhys Benjamin]

Rhys, nobody is gonna be printing anything in 2023, it's a paperless society these days everywhere you go, as i'm sure you know.

You should see our office!

I think that’s a poor decision from OUP, though, even just from a historical standpoint. They should print a paper dictionary every 10-15 years or so for time capsule reasons, basically.

[Dame Eadie]

Well here's one

When I went on the show, I declared OUTLAIN, which was valid on apterous at the time but got disallowed by Susie.

Can't blame OUP for that.

And from another CoC contestant elsewhere
"Now that my TV appearances are done it's very nice not having to keep three separate lists - words, words which are on apto but I think Susie would disallow, and words not on apto that I think Susie would allow"

Again, can't blame OUP for whatever a person thinks. Apto and OUP aren't attached in any way, and Countdown the show has no control on what either of them class as valid or invalid.
Did anyone lose a show over uncertainty as to what to declare? I haven't heard of it, if that's the case.

[Dame Eadie]

Is it free advertising for OUP or do they pay for it in some way?

They don't pay.

Maybe if Collins or Chambers offered to pay for their dictionary to be used or plugged then we would see a new dictionary.

Not true.

[Dame Eadie]

I think that’s a poor decision from OUP, though, even just from a historical standpoint. They should print a paper dictionary every 10-15 years or so for time capsule reasons, basically.

People are crying out for eco-friendly this and that, no paper, less carbon emissions, there's the issue of transportation / distribution to shops, storage of books already printed, inability to update once published...... it goes on. And who's going to listen to the audio book?

[Noel Mc]

Just here to politely laugh at the suggestion that Oxford should publish a definitive word list. I get Collins do that for Scrabble, but I imagine that's potentially tied in with some sort of endorsement which makes them money.

As much as you all love Countdown, I don't think Oxford would be massively bothered if it stopped using their dictionary. I reckon they're more interested in the definition side of things, rather than an incredibly small subset of countdown fanatics wanting a list of words.

[Marc Meakin]

On top of all this my dog has chewed the front and back of my dictionary.
It goes from bad to worse

[Ian Fitzpatrick]

I have been a Countdown viewer for in excess of 25 years and really am only interested in the spectacle of the television programme with the hope that I may know a few words and on occasions actually beat the contestants (and perhaps DC). What annoys me most is when these "high fliers" come up with words that no-one has actually heard of let alone used as they are buried deep in the small print of the dictionary (which ever one is being used).

Moving to Scrabble lists would be a really bad idea in my view as there are so many really non-words in use there.

Countdown is a television programme, Apterous isn't.