c4countdown

Philip A wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:11 pm A rejection of several extant dictionaries in favour of an imaginary one that may never exist.

Philip A wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:11 pm There’s no perfect solution. I wouldn’t go back to a paper dictionary - so much more convenient to search for words online now. CSW21 already contains its own bizarre content, plus extremely rare plurals of nouns which are commonly mass nouns, so that’s also a no from me. I can understand the reasons for the suggestions in the OP though.

Philip A wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:11 pm
I’d instead slim the content in Oxford Dictionaries Premium down to exclude words which come directly from the Oxford English Dictionary (ODP does actually contain some OED content, but not all), especially because they lack clarity on whether a noun is countable (and some of them are blatantly uncountable, like OMALGIA) as do other obsolete and rare words like AMBEER and its variant spellings. Regional spellings like ONESTEEAD and RUINAAYTE, which return barely any Google searches compared to the CoC XV and XVI conundrums (and recent finals), are also probably better off kept in a separate dictionary; I can’t see any lexicographer on Countdown regularly spotting them.

Philip A wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:11 pm The content in ODP has made the gap between online players and home players too great now, in my view. The competition is not as level. Gone are the days when competitive home players can beat practically anybody. Now good home players who’d average centuries will at some point run into a long-time Apterite and lose 140-40.

Philip A wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:11 pm But I think a slimmed-down lexicon would make the game more accessible and level the playing field.

Philip A wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:11 pm Now good home players who’d average centuries will at some point run into a long-time Apterite and lose 140-40.

Philip A wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:03 pm Sorry for my bizarre take, but just to be clear re RUINATE: the first definition of ruinate 2 is an exact match as it appears in the OED:
-
Forms: 1500s rewynate, 1500s–1600s ruynate, 1500s– ruinate, 1600s ruinate (past participle), 1800s– ruinaayte (English regional (Berkshire)), 1800s– ruineyat (English regional (Isle of Wight)); also Scottish pre-1700 rewynat (past participle), pre-1700 ruinat (past participle), pre-1700 ruinat, pre-1700 ruynate, pre-1700 rwinate.

1
To reduce (a person) to a state of complete poverty; to deprive of moral or social standing. Also reflexive. Compare ruin. Now frequently regional..
-

Of the 8 spellings in the OED, 2 of them appear in ODP.

I know this doesn’t make my comment any less crazy but I hope this clears up that there is some OED content in ODP.

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:47 pm Someone should just have a quiet word with Oxford

The content in ODP has made the gap between online players and home players too great now, in my view.

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:34 am

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:47 pm Someone should just have a quiet word with Oxford

This reminds me of this thread back in 2013. As I said at the time, Countdown must be brilliant advertising for them, but they don't give anything in return, like a dictionary that specifies what the words are, which would be so low effort for them. Time to write again maybe?

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:52 am

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:34 am

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:47 pm Someone should just have a quiet word with Oxford

This reminds me of this thread back in 2013. As I said at the time, Countdown must be brilliant advertising for them, but they don't give anything in return, like a dictionary that specifies what the words are, which would be so low effort for them. Time to write again maybe?

When you’re an MP caseworker, my current thought is “write to your MP”.

Dear [whoever],

I am writing to ask if you, as my Member of Parliament, could write to Oxford University Press who haven’t responded to my query for 9 years, requesting clarification of various aspects of what was then the ODE3…

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:40 pm To clarify matters, I won't be writing to James Cleverly on this subject.

James Cleverly wrote:Dear constituent
Hahahahahahah. Now fuck off.
Love, Your MP xxxx

Elliott Mellor wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:54 am

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:40 pm To clarify matters, I won't be writing to James Cleverly on this subject.

Is this because you think the issue is too complicated for him to understand, or because you don't feel like writing to an MP is the way to solve this?

Fiona T wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:13 pm A potential CSW disadvantage from apterous' pov is that it would make it much easier for people to cheat!

Fiona T wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:30 pm Advantages

Definitive word list - no subjective judgements required
Crossover potential - a lot of keen scrabblers who've never been near apto would feel more tempted to apply (it is a fact that many are put off by the dictionary differences) and countdowners can dip their toes in the murky waters of scrabble. (Scrabble is a pretty different demographic to your average countdowner so potentially more diversity on screen)

Disdavantages

We've all gotta learn a new lexicon (including Susie). We'd all whinge. A lot.
It's oft been said that CD have some sort of deal with Oxford dictionaries so might not be as simple as just changing.
Slur words have been removed (although this was pretty controversial) - far less risk of having offensive content cut/removed

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:08 pm

Fiona T wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:30 pm Advantages

Definitive word list - no subjective judgements required
Crossover potential - a lot of keen scrabblers who've never been near apto would feel more tempted to apply (it is a fact that many are put off by the dictionary differences) and countdowners can dip their toes in the murky waters of scrabble. (Scrabble is a pretty different demographic to your average countdowner so potentially more diversity on screen)

Disdavantages

We've all gotta learn a new lexicon (including Susie). We'd all whinge. A lot.
It's oft been said that CD have some sort of deal with Oxford dictionaries so might not be as simple as just changing.
Slur words have been removed (although this was pretty controversial) - far less risk of having offensive content cut/removed

Just had to quickly fix that for you!

The obvious solution is to implement CSW (even if it must be the new CSWoke).
Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.
I see no reason why it would increase Apto cheating though? Seems like the sort of non argument someone who is afraid of change might make. (obv not a dig at you Fiona, just that it seems illogical.)

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:08 pm Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:08 pm Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.

Dame Eadie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:05 pm

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:08 pm Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.

Okay, let's play. What exactly am i supposed to be changing to and why?
The dictionary isn't perfect, but are any of them?
It's not long since we had the best C of C ever and two highest scores of 154 in pretty close succession, all of which happened using the current dictionary set up. Am i missing something?

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:04 pm

Dame Eadie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:05 pm

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:08 pm Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.

Okay, let's play. What exactly am i supposed to be changing to and why?
The dictionary isn't perfect, but are any of them?
It's not long since we had the best C of C ever and two highest scores of 154 in pretty close succession, all of which happened using the current dictionary set up. Am i missing something?

Basically some believe this to be a bad thing, the current dictionary contains too many obscure words and is also not readily available to future contestants. They would like you to change over to CSW.

(I would rather keep Oxford for tradition's sake, but lean on them heavily to produce a coherent A-Z word list every now and then...)

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:04 pm Basically some believe this to be a bad thing, the current dictionary contains too many obscure words and is also not readily available to future contestants. They would like you to change over to CSW.

Dame Eadie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:05 pm

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:08 pm Maybe when Damian retires the new person will have the vision to make the change.

Okay, let's play. What exactly am i supposed to be changing to and why?
The dictionary isn't perfect, but are any of them?
It's not long since we had the best C of C ever and two highest scores of 154 in pretty close succession, all of which happened using the current dictionary set up. Am i missing something?

Graeme Cole wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:32 pm CSW isn't exactly freely-available, either. CSW word checkers that take a word and give you a simple yes or no are all over the place, but the actual raw word list is more restricted.

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:51 pm

Graeme Cole wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:32 pm CSW isn't exactly freely-available, either. CSW word checkers that take a word and give you a simple yes or no are all over the place, but the actual raw word list is more restricted.

This is so obviously a comment from someone from outside of the world of Scrabble.
The new CSW lists are always freely available to all in a digestible form.
The page you linked to was an unusual request made by WESPA due to the exceptional circumstances of the switchover to CSW21... which had proved so controversial they were trying to gatekeep the wordlist. An attempt that was not successful, as a few of the national associations (particularly in sensible non-woke places like Africa) published the list publicly in spite of WESPA's lame request not to.

Steve Hyde wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:40 pm If Lexico still existed I don't think there would be much of a problem tbh. Mostly I miss there being a free way to check whether or not I've just made up a word that dictionary corner missed

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:51 pm Ye currently use a version of Oxford for adjudication.
The argument is that it is not fit for purpose.

Graeme Cole wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:32 pm

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:04 pm

Dame Eadie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:05 pm

Okay, let's play. What exactly am i supposed to be changing to and why?
The dictionary isn't perfect, but are any of them?
It's not long since we had the best C of C ever and two highest scores of 154 in pretty close succession, all of which happened using the current dictionary set up. Am i missing something?

Basically some believe this to be a bad thing, the current dictionary contains too many obscure words and is also not readily available to future contestants. They would like you to change over to CSW.

(I would rather keep Oxford for tradition's sake, but lean on them heavily to produce a coherent A-Z word list every now and then...)

I get that to some extent you're playing devil's advocate here, but obscure words aren't an Oxford-only issue. Have a look at this list of high-probability CSW sevens. Loads of obscure words in there.


CSW isn't exactly freely-available, either. CSW word checkers that take a word and give you a simple yes or no are all over the place, but the actual raw word list is more restricted.

David Williams wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:52 am I suggest that Countdown should get as many different print dictionaries as they can lay their hands on, and pick a different one at random for each show. This would make no difference whatever to 90% of contestants and 99% of viewers, but it would make the programme rather more fun to watch.

Dame Eadie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:08 am

David Williams wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:52 am I suggest that Countdown should get as many different print dictionaries as they can lay their hands on, and pick a different one at random for each show. This would make no difference whatever to 90% of contestants and 99% of viewers, but it would make the programme rather more fun to watch.

100% agree.

Fiona T wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:25 am
No longer would contestants have to wonder whether to risk ideatums or mileages not knowing whether Susie would allow it.

Fiona T wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:25 am
The second big pro is that it is easily available - right now there is no way for the casual punter or wannabe contestant to check if their word is in, without paying for a subscription. Even if the full list linked above isn't 'legal' there are numerous websites and apps to check word validity.

Graeme Cole wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:32 pm

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:04 pm

Dame Eadie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:05 pm

Okay, let's play. What exactly am i supposed to be changing to and why?
The dictionary isn't perfect, but are any of them?
It's not long since we had the best C of C ever and two highest scores of 154 in pretty close succession, all of which happened using the current dictionary set up. Am i missing something?

Basically some believe this to be a bad thing, the current dictionary contains too many obscure words and is also not readily available to future contestants. They would like you to change over to CSW.

(I would rather keep Oxford for tradition's sake, but lean on them heavily to produce a coherent A-Z word list every now and then...)

I get that to some extent you're playing devil's advocate here, but obscure words aren't an Oxford-only issue. Have a look at this list of high-probability CSW sevens. Loads of obscure words in there.

CSW isn't exactly freely-available, either. CSW word checkers that take a word and give you a simple yes or no are all over the place, but the actual raw word list is more restricted.

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:37 pm My own gripe with Oxford is the number of non-common non-ODE3 words which a pleb like me could hardly be expected to know.

The way I think of it is “if ODE4 were printed tomorrow, what would be in it - probably not [x]”.

For all its flaws, a print dictionary is at least fixed and immovable until the next edition. Thus my ideal solution isn’t in Countdown’s hands but OUP’s, and that’s print an actual dictionary for the first time since 2010 (ODE3) or 2011 (COD12)!

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:07 pm Maybe a years subscription could be offered to winners insttead of a teapot as an option.

Dame Eadie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:33 pm Aside from it not being free of charge, i'm yet to see what the problem is with Oxford and have nothing of any concrete value that would make me think to change to CSW. Still happy to listen, but there's not much of a voice it seems.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:27 pm Should be on the Co events thread but what dictionary is used there?

Dan Byrom wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:56 pm To be honest, I find it surprising that Oxford doesn't have a simple list of all the words in the dictionary

Dame Eadie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:33 pm

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:37 pm My own gripe with Oxford is the number of non-common non-ODE3 words which a pleb like me could hardly be expected to know.

The way I think of it is “if ODE4 were printed tomorrow, what would be in it - probably not [x]”.

For all its flaws, a print dictionary is at least fixed and immovable until the next edition. Thus my ideal solution isn’t in Countdown’s hands but OUP’s, and that’s print an actual dictionary for the first time since 2010 (ODE3) or 2011 (COD12)!

Rhys, nobody is gonna be printing anything in 2023, it's a paperless society these days everywhere you go, as i'm sure you know.
The gripe about non-common non-ODE3 words is fair enough, i get that, but in poker terms CSW can see Oxford and raise them when it comes to this.
Aside from it not being free of charge, i'm yet to see what the problem is with Oxford and have nothing of any concrete value that would make me think to change to CSW. Still happy to listen, but there's not much of a voice it seems.

Dame Eadie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:27 am
I don't believe people are wondering though. Where are they?

Dan Byrom wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:56 pm
When I went on the show, I declared OUTLAIN, which was valid on apterous at the time but got disallowed by Susie.

Dame Eadie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:33 pm Rhys, nobody is gonna be printing anything in 2023, it's a paperless society these days everywhere you go, as i'm sure you know.

Fiona T wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:36 am Well here's one

Dan Byrom wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:56 pm
When I went on the show, I declared OUTLAIN, which was valid on apterous at the time but got disallowed by Susie.

Can't blame OUP for that.

Fiona T wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:36 am And from another CoC contestant elsewhere
"Now that my TV appearances are done it's very nice not having to keep three separate lists - words, words which are on apto but I think Susie would disallow, and words not on apto that I think Susie would allow"

Again, can't blame OUP for whatever a person thinks. Apto and OUP aren't attached in any way, and Countdown the show has no control on what either of them class as valid or invalid.
Did anyone lose a show over uncertainty as to what to declare? I haven't heard of it, if that's the case.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:08 am Is it free advertising for OUP or do they pay for it in some way?

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:08 am Maybe if Collins or Chambers offered to pay for their dictionary to be used or plugged then we would see a new dictionary.

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:26 am I think that’s a poor decision from OUP, though, even just from a historical standpoint. They should print a paper dictionary every 10-15 years or so for time capsule reasons, basically.