Spoilers for Tuesday 3 January 2023 - CoC XVI, Prelim 2

[Philip A]

It’s a rematch of the Series 80 Grand Final. Yep, a rematch this early on in the tournament after one episode so far! Series champion and multiple gameshow contestant Dinos Sfyris – playing his 16th televised game of Countdown – against the all-time record octochamp totaller Elliott Mellor. Will history repeat itself, or not?

[Ian Fitzpatrick]

When did Dino first appear on Countdown. He is the one person I particularly remember from when I first starting watching Countdown after i retired.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Surprised that Elliott's allowed to have his water on the inside of the buzzer, the floor manager was very particular about that when I was on.

[Fiona T]

Ooops Rachel put up REGINEMS - didn't notice that at the time!

[Gavin Chipper]

Another good game, another bad conundrum. I liked that Dinos said that they're all made up when he buzzed in.

[Ahmed M]

Another good game, another bad conundrum. I liked that Dinos said that they're all made up when he buzzed in.

'Bad' as in difficult, bad as in bad or bad for a ro16 match? Can't see what's wrong with cantabile, it's not an irregular letters selection. Still a difficult con though of course

[Gavin Chipper]

Another good game, another bad conundrum. I liked that Dinos said that they're all made up when he buzzed in.

'Bad' as in difficult, bad as in bad or bad for a ro16 match? Can't see what's wrong with cantabile, it's not an irregular letters selection. Still a difficult con though of course

I tend to think that conundrums should be more about unscrambling than just knowing a really obscure word. I'd rather they accidentally allowed a one second solve through than have a load of ones no-one gets.

[Ahmed M]

Another good game, another bad conundrum. I liked that Dinos said that they're all made up when he buzzed in.

'Bad' as in difficult, bad as in bad or bad for a ro16 match? Can't see what's wrong with cantabile, it's not an irregular letters selection. Still a difficult con though of course

I tend to think that conundrums should be more about unscrambling than just knowing a really obscure word. I'd rather they accidentally allowed a one second solve through than have a load of ones no-one gets.

Don't think it's that cut and dry tbh, gettable but difficult cons like 'potential' are bread and butter to people competing in a CoC; at a certain point it becomes a buzzer race. Cons like cantabile are perfect in that they're difficult, non-ascension and are a selection of common letters without repetition

[Philip A]

I agree with Ahmed on this. These conundrums are great. The balance of real word study and anagram training is spot on for this calibre.

When did Dino first appear on Countdown. He is the one person I particularly remember from when I first starting watching Countdown after i retired.

Series 57 in October 2007, when he was a teenager. https://wiki.apterous.org/Dinos_Sfyris

[samir pilica]

Have the rest of the participants been brushing up on the 9 letter musical terms following the first 2 episodes ?

[Rhys Benjamin]

If you've never read this excellent post on conundrum difficulty then I implore you to do so.

[Ahmed M]

If you've never read this excellent post on conundrum difficulty then I implore you to do so.

Cantabile sort of occupies the middle ground going by that post. Nothing to call it a bad con

[Philip A]

As a crossword fan since lockdown, these conundrums are akin to words that setters would use as answers in the toughest cryptic crosswords such as those in The Times. I have the 5th edition of Bradford’s Crossword Solver’s Lists at home; it has a list of musical instructions and terms (plus dozens of categories). It’s a Collins publication so may differ slightly to ODP, but there’s a strong overlap (and TBF if the word appears in multiple dictionaries then it’s also conundrum-worthy IMO).

As the standard of play in Countdown has evolved over the last 20 years, conundrums in finals and CoCs have slowly but surely been getting harder. After 2 games in this tournament so far I would say this conundrum is maximum difficulty (i.e. without being a word that zero people can get), and would probably save that for the CoC quarter-final onwards at least.

Words I would avoid for conundrums are things like extremely rare and obsolete words, bizarre spellings only seen in ODP and nowhere else, or random minerals.

OUTYELLS a great get from Colin.

[Philip A]

As for the tale of this game, the dictionary was against Dinos in a couple of letters rounds – really unlucky. Congrats to Elliott. Two wonderful players.

[Johnny Canuck]

Nah, these conundrums are starting off gentle and slowish.

[JackHurst]

Great work from Elliott today.

Can't wait to see if tomorrow's conundrum is:

ADAGIETTO

Though I doubt it. Damian knows the game and the players well enough to know that he can get away with two in a row, but if you go further then players spot the pattern and have a good go at second guessing...

[Tracey Anne Mills]

A great game by Dinos and Elliott

[Toby McDonald]

Congrats Ell, finally got your revenge! And very bad luck Dinos.

[Ryan Lam]

This is the match you've all been waiting for I bet, and this brings me back memories in the Daily Chat on Apterous on that fateful day of 28 June 2019, the day the Series 80 Grand Final took place where all of us but one (Chris M iirc) expected the greatest of all time in terms of points, Elliott to win and the opposite happened. And yes, the nine which Elliott didn't risk (FILATURES in R1) was brought up, painful because he would have won had he declared it. Well, if Tom Stevenson is the GOAT today, Elliott certainly was the GOAT at the time and he doesn't hold back his true feelings as he so wants to get his "revenge" on Dinos after missing out on the Richard Whiteley Memorial Trophy 3.5 years ago!

Letters: Excellent start with both of them neck-and-neck with Dinos spotting URANAGE in R4 (although I did comment his pronunciation made it sound like the word was related to Urinating ). Then, the breakaway came in R5 when resexing was disallowed and Rachel misspelling REGIMENS on the board? How did this slip past the editing stage? A delicious R7 came but the gap became wider for Dinos and he crumbles under pressure when faisante was not in. He's now definitely in Elliott's position all those years ago thinking about it. However, both of them don't let up with them tying all the way in the last third, so not all was lost!

Numbers: Despite what happened in the Series 80 Grand Final, Dinos starts off gently and so does Elliott, with both unsurprisingly, getting the target. Yes, if you hadn't realised what happened in R6 where they played Rock Paper Scissors, it's a cheeky reference to what happened in the last CoC when the same thing happened between Tom Carey and Zarte Siempre after they got a ridiculously easy round. The game doesn't let up in R9 despite the 6 Small choice and Elliott decides to let Rachel choose the selection in R14. So it's over to her, then to Colin, then to Richard, who goes for 3 Large...and such an easy target, perhaps Richard should reconsider another selection Elliott decides to show off with his solution, afterall, we hadn't seen him on-screen for so long, so why not?! Well done all round to both who gets the full 40 Points!

Conundrum: Guess what? It's another Musical Conundrum and I knew the meaning, oh my! I got this one surprisingly because of all the repetitive letters! Both contestants buzzed in but were wrong, and Colin surprisingly lets the clock go on despite the usual practice of stopping it if the second contestant gives an incorrect answer. I swear if tomorrow's conundrum is also a musical term, I would be something else already. Keep up the good work Susie of explaining the definitions of the answers despite your voice, it really helps those who don't know!

As the saying goes, "Revenge is a dish best served cold". Elliott probably wanted this moment, got it, and there you have it, a decisive victory for him which was decided by the letters. I'm sure many of us were rooting for Elliott to win this time around and it did happen! Dinos, despite losing here, no one can take away the title of Grand Champion and beating the highest scoring player back then was no easy feat! You did well here and there's no shame in losing in a rematch. All the best in raising up your child who's grown up since your last appearance and the handshake at the end with Elliott reminds us all what Countdown is about despite the competitive atmosphere: that rivals can sometimes be the best of friends and I hope it stays that way for many years to come!

And so ends another episode, but Colin didn't mention who's facing off each other tomorrow, so until I see the two faces on-camera, it'll be a surprise!

Progress:
Preliminary 1 (02 January 2023): Florence Cappleman-Lynes (Series 84 Runner-Up) vs Leo Smith (Series 82 Semi-Finalist) (100 - 69)
Preliminary 2 (03 January 2023): Dinos Sfyris (Series 80 Grand Champion) vs Elliott Mellor (Series 80 Runner-Up) (88 - 110)
Preliminary 3 (04 January 2023): (TBC)
Preliminary 4 (05 January 2023): (TBC)
Preliminary 5 (06 January 2023): (TBC)
Preliminary 6 (09 January 2023): (TBC)
Preliminary 7 (10 January 2023): Steve Hyde (Series 85 Semi-Finalist) vs Dan Byrom (Series 85 Grand Champion)
Preliminary 8 (11 January 2023): Matt O'Connor (Series 85 Runner-Up) vs Sam Cappleman-Lynes (Series 82 Runner-Up)
Quarter-Finals 1 (12 January 2023): Florence Cappleman-Lynes (Preliminary 1 Winner) vs (Preliminary 8 Winner)
Quarter-Finals 2 (13 January 2023): Elliott Mellor (Preliminary 2 Winner) vs (Preliminary 7 Winner)
Quarter-Finals 3 (16 January 2023): (Preliminary 3 Winner) vs (Preliminary 6 Winner)
Quarter-Finals 4 (17 January 2023): (Preliminary 4 Winner) vs (Preliminary 5 Winner)
Semi-Finals 1 (18 January 2023): (Quarter-Finals 1 Winner) vs (Quarter-Finals 4 Winner)
Semi-Finals 2 (19 January 2023): (Quarter-Finals 2 Winner) vs (Quarter-Finals 3 Winner)
Championship Final (20 January 2023): (Semi-Finals 1 Winner) vs (Semi-Finals 2 Winner)

[Conor]

Very accomplished performance from Elliott among some tricky rounds.

Great work from Elliott today.

Can't wait to see if tomorrow's conundrum is:

ADAGIETTO

Though I doubt it. Damian knows the game and the players well enough to know that he can get away with two in a row, but if you go further then players spot the pattern and have a good go at second guessing...

Yep, like in 30BC when we had MOONRAKER and GOLDENEYE consecutively but nothing else Bond-themed.

[Ian Fitzpatrick]

5 vowels again - makes for boring Countdown for the "average" viewer in my opinion

[Adam S Latchford]

5 vowels again - makes for boring Countdown for the "average" viewer in my opinion

VVVCCCCVV
V times in a row

Makes sense to go for what you're best at / what you think you've got the biggest edge in and Mellor's the best 5 vowel player out there - not surprising to see. The pattern was a bit though!

[Gavin Chipper]

5 vowels again - makes for boring Countdown for the "average" viewer in my opinion

I think it's generally accepted that 4 vowels gives the "best" selections on average for longer words, but as Adam says, you've got to play to your strengths. But also annoying selections are not just a top player thing. More "normal" contestants will often spoil a promising selection by going for a 6th consonant at the end rather than a 4th vowel, and sometimes they even like to ensure the damage early by not even picking a 3rd vowel until the final letter, giving no option of the 4th vowel!

[Gavin Chipper]

By the way, just on the conundrum thing again - one thing I like about the letters and numbers rounds is that they are completely neutral and have no sense of occasion. You just as likely to get a target of 101 with a 100 and a 1 in the selection in a grand final as you are in a random heat game, or the selection RELATIOSN. Having someone manually select the conundrum changes that "ethos" a little bit. On the other hand, there is only one conundrum per game and it is the climax, and you do want it to be reasonable - there are enough letters and numbers games for a few duds to not matter too much. But picking a conundrum by hand can introduce potential biases, not deliberate, but one player could be accidentally favoured by the selection process. And while one might argue that it's acceptable to go through Apterous conundrums to select ones not on there, I think going through an individual's player profile (which I think has been done before though correct me if I'm wrong) is going a step too far. I don't think an individual's own training should be used against them and it encourages more anonymous activity as came up on this Apterous ticket.

[Countdown Team]

Okay so i saw you had some misgivings about the conundrums used so far in that you think they're too difficult. It that just for you, or for general viewers of the show or the contestants taking part? Who are you speaking for and based on what evidence? Try to remember this is the Champion of Champions and not Celebrity Catchphrase.

CANTABILE and ANDANTINO aren't obscure if you play an instrument and read sheet music. Cantabile throws up 7.5m results on Google, Andantino gets 3m. Pretty sure more people will have heard of either of those when compared to ONSTEEAD, which Florence played, which gives just 19 results. Had either conundrum been part of the Apto Ascension task, they've have been solved PDQ no doubt. Obscurity from Apterous doesn't mean obscurity from the real world, likewise the other way round with ONSTEEAD. It's always coming up, but rarely or never in the real world for sure.

Your bit about accidental biases when selecting conundrums has lost me somewhat, i don't understand your point, and your suggestion that we go through players personal profiles when deciding which conundrums to use is simply not true. If the ones used for the C of C are not on Apterous, as has been suggested several times, then why the need to go through players profiles?

[Gavin Chipper]

Okay so i saw you had some misgivings about the conundrums used so far in that you think they're too difficult. It that just for you, or for general viewers of the show or the contestants taking part? Who are you speaking for and based on what evidence? Try to remember this is the Champion of Champions and not Celebrity Catchphrase.

Well, I meant for the viewer and also the contestants, since the first two went unsolved by anyone. But fair enough - I know that you have a difficult job, and I'm just a picky person on the interent and it is a matter of opinion what makes a good conundrum. I'm not being sarcastic by the way. It's much easier for me to say what I think is wrong with the show sitting at home than it is to actually deliver it.

In any case, the subject has been discussed at length on various occasions, so I probably don't need to debate it too much more!

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

To add to the obscurity discussion - while there are some words that are obviously common and some words that are obviously obscure, most words occupy a middle ground where they will appear normal if you're familiar with the word and appear obscure if you've never heard it. I don't think it's possible to say that a particular word is obscure based simply on your own reaction to it, or even the reactions of a small number of people.

FWIW, I think both CANTABILE and ANDANTINO are words that you can reasonably expect a word-lover or even a word-liker to have come across.

Additionally, I think a few people are taking the wrong conclusion from the post by Graeme that is linked above. The way I read it, that post is arguing that you shouldn't use conundrums where the difficulty comes ENTIRELY from the obscurity of the answer and is otherwise trivial to unscramble. These conundrums are not like that. Yes, they have relatively obscure answers, but they also require actual skill to unscramble, containing mostly common letters and plausible dead ends. That makes them perfectly suitable for a contest between good players, in my opinion.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Okay so i saw you had some misgivings about the conundrums used so far in that you think they're too difficult. It that just for you, or for general viewers of the show or the contestants taking part? Who are you speaking for and based on what evidence? Try to remember this is the Champion of Champions and not Celebrity Catchphrase.

CANTABILE and ANDANTINO aren't obscure if you play an instrument and read sheet music. Cantabile throws up 7.5m results on Google, Andantino gets 3m. Pretty sure more people will have heard of either of those when compared to ONSTEEAD, which Florence played, which gives just 19 results. Had either conundrum been part of the Apto Ascension task, they've have been solved PDQ no doubt. Obscurity from Apterous doesn't mean obscurity from the real world, likewise the other way round with ONSTEEAD. It's always coming up, but rarely or never in the real world for sure.

Your bit about accidental biases when selecting conundrums has lost me somewhat, i don't understand your point, and your suggestion that we go through players personal profiles when deciding which conundrums to use is simply not true. If the ones used for the C of C are not on Apterous, as has been suggested several times, then why the need to go through players profiles?

Perhaps I wasn't clear when I was referring to the Graeme post, because I certainly wasn't complaining.

It's a COC so I expect very difficult conundrums. Although I think some visual banner on the clock (like in the good old days) would be useful for the general public for a COC, or other "super-events".

[Philip A]

Okay so i saw you had some misgivings about the conundrums used so far in that you think they're too difficult. It that just for you, or for general viewers of the show or the contestants taking part? Who are you speaking for and based on what evidence? Try to remember this is the Champion of Champions and not Celebrity Catchphrase.

CANTABILE and ANDANTINO aren't obscure if you play an instrument and read sheet music. Cantabile throws up 7.5m results on Google, Andantino gets 3m. Pretty sure more people will have heard of either of those when compared to ONSTEEAD, which Florence played, which gives just 19 results. Had either conundrum been part of the Apto Ascension task, they've have been solved PDQ no doubt. Obscurity from Apterous doesn't mean obscurity from the real world, likewise the other way round with ONSTEEAD. It's always coming up, but rarely or never in the real world for sure.

Your bit about accidental biases when selecting conundrums has lost me somewhat, i don't understand your point, and your suggestion that we go through players personal profiles when deciding which conundrums to use is simply not true. If the ones used for the C of C are not on Apterous, as has been suggested several times, then why the need to go through players profiles?

Perhaps I wasn't clear when I was referring to the Graeme post, because I certainly wasn't complaining.

It's a COC so I expect very difficult conundrums. Although I think some visual banner on the clock (like in the good old days) would be useful for the general public for a COC, or other "super-events".

Not a banner per se, but decorations and lighting similar to the 40th anniversary week that represent finals and CoCs. Maybe also a couple of gold-coloured backdrops, as seen on House of Games Champions weeks. It’s a good way to get the viewers noticing the event, especially when they’re stuck for stimulation after lunch when channel-hopping midway through the programmes. It makes viewers go, “Ooh that looks a bit different.”

[Adam S Latchford]

If you'd never touched any apterous, any word lists, any apps etc... i think Wednesday's conundrum is the word that's the least likely you'd have come across and is the one that's been solved so far.

What's easy for a seasoned apterite and what's difficult isn't the same as the every day viewer.

I'd love squeezing to pop up on a conundrum just to mess with people though

[Countdown Team]

Well, I meant for the viewer and also the contestants, since the first two went unsolved by anyone. But fair enough - I know that you have a difficult job, and I'm just a picky person on the interent and it is a matter of opinion what makes a good conundrum. I'm not being sarcastic by the way. It's much easier for me to say what I think is wrong with the show sitting at home than it is to actually deliver it.

In any case, the subject has been discussed at length on various occasions, so I probably don't need to debate it too much more!

Oh i wasn't detecting sarcasm as all. It's really difficult to set the correct level of toughness with these sort of games. I wasn't wanting it to become a 1-second jab-fest all throughout the games, but also we want to see people getting them right, absolutely agree with you on that. Obviously it's all over from our end now and with hindsight, one or two were possibly a bit too difficult, but they say the cream always rises to the top. Let's see.

[David Williams]

Messrs Chipper and Team being nice to each other? What's going on here?

As someone who's never been an apterite I have to agree with CT. CANTABILE and ANDANTINO are both words I knew, but there are plenty of words that come up that I have never heard of and couldn't even make up. I saw CANTABILE instantly. I was surprised that it isn't well known to the experts. It's not a new word, and it's not an improbable selection of letters.