Co:Brum 2022

Discussion and announcements relating to unofficial Countdown competitions, held online or in real life. Observation, discussion, reflection, and other stuff ending in -ion.
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Matt Rutherford
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Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

Having hosted the final from 2016-2018, the UK's second city returns to the FOCAL calendar for 2022. Alas not in the delights of the airport's drone exclusion zone, nor the Strathallan Hotel, but it still should be fun. Hosted by Matthew S Rutherford (MSR for short. Also go by a real name-look the blond gangly spod with a cross necklace and naff facial hair)

See Facebook-https://www.facebook.com/events/7831357 ... f=newsfeed

DATE-Saturday 13th August 2022

ADDRESS-Chester Road Baptist Church, B73 5HU. Less than a five-minute walk from Chester Road railway station, which has regular trains to both Birmingham New Street and Lichfield Trent Valley.
Map

PREMISE-You will play six 9-round games of Countdown in the 'Lincoln' style. After six games, the top two players will face each other in the grand finaL, with prizes for the top 8. The first round is drawn randomly-don't panic if someone wipes the floor with you early on, for the second and third rounds you play opponents that have scored similarly to you, so everyone should get some good, well-matched games. Main aim is a bit of fun :)
All under-18s must be accompanied by a responsible adult

ADMISSION-£10 per person. Made payable to here
This uses my real name, but trust me it's the right link-and yes, I've put the event name as my hand in error. Please remember to use friends and family option! If you want to arrange for some other method of payment, please contact me via Aptomail or message and something can be arranged.

HOTELS-Many options in and around Birmingham. The nearby town of Sutton Coldfield has both a Premier Inn and Travelodge as well-it too is a short train ride from the venue

PARKRUN-If you're someone who doesn't reserve running only for when you're late for public transport, there is a Parkrun in the nearby Sutton Park (https://www.parkrun.org.uk/suttonpark/). it's ranked 511 in terms of speed.

LUNCH-Not provided, but there is a Tesco Express and McDonalds on Sutton Road the other side of Chester Road nearby

TIMINGS (Rough guide)
10:30 Doors open
11:00: First round draw is made - please try and arrive by 10:45
11:15 First round starts
12:30: Lunch break
13:30: Second round starts
14:45: Third round starts
16:15: Grand final
16:45: Prizegiving
17:00: Clear up
17:30: Close

CONFIRMED COMPETITORS (19)
-Rachael Montgomery
-Darren Godfrey
-Adam Dexter
-Adam Beach
-George Armstrong
-James Robinson
-Mike Lee
-Alex Williamson
-Andy Platt
-Phil Stanton
-Damian McEvoy
-Ashwin Abishani
-Richard Priest
-Adrian Fletcher
-Stewart Gordon
-Bradley Horrocks
-Adam Latchford
-Dave Robjohns
-Fiona Titcombe
Last edited by Matt Rutherford on Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:49 am, edited 17 times in total.
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Matt Rutherford
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

So Facebook seems to think I'm an algorithm doing Putin's dirty work, and has therefore suspended my account for some unknown reason. Which is fun. I'll be posting updates here. Mainly the fact that Adam's Dexter and Beach have joined us! I'll keep you all posted somehow :)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

CoLon co-host George Armstrong joins us :)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Richard Priest »

Hopeful of attending but won't know until a few weeks in advance. Is there parking at the venue?
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Callum Todd »

Richard Priest wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:25 am Hopeful of attending but won't know until a few weeks in advance. Is there parking at the venue?
According to the venue website, there are 33 car parking spaces on site which are free so long as you input your car reg into their system as soon as you arrive.

Doesn't appear to be any way of prebooking or otherwise guaranteeing a space though so it might be first come first served, but with 33 spaces I'd hope there'll be enough.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by George Armstrong »

Matt Rutherford wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:36 pm So Facebook seems to think I'm an algorithm doing Putin's dirty work, and has therefore suspended my account for some unknown reason. Which is fun. I'll be posting updates here. Mainly the fact that Adam's Dexter and Beach have joined us! I'll keep you all posted somehow :)
This seems to have had the knock on effect that we can't comment on the FB event page. Plus guest posting was turned off and I doubt we can get that back...

Anyway, for those interested in hotels, Travelodge Birmingham Central seems the best priced atm. 1 mile away from New Street Station, which has regular and quick trains up to the venue. https://www.travelodge.co.uk/hotels/109 ... hildren]=0
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

Cheers George! Give it another 13 days and I'll be able to post again, according to Facebook
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Adam Dexter »

Just a note to say that as well as the aforementioned Facebook issues, the event on this forum is not a global sticky (it is a sticky in the events, but doesn't appear to show on e.g. Spoilers subforum).
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Fiona T »

Matt Rutherford wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:15 pm Cheers George! Give it another 13 days and I'll be able to post again, according to Facebook
I realise you set up the fb account just to promote the event, but add a pic and some friends and fb will probably be happier that you're 'real' :)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Fiona T »

Fiona T wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:10 pm
Matt Rutherford wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:15 pm Cheers George! Give it another 13 days and I'll be able to post again, according to Facebook
I realise you set up the fb account just to promote the event, but add a pic and some friends and fb will probably be happier that you're 'real' :)
On that note have sent you a friend request :)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

Following some consulting with Cal, I can reveal that we'll be trialling something new in Brum...
Many of us have become accustomed with Jack Hurst's superb Countdown app. In Brum, I'm going to trial using it to play the Co:Event games. It allows solutions, maxes, and valid words to be checked a lot faster, and I must confess, it does cut out some minor faff from organizing!
I'll put some immediate worries to bed...
-'I haven't got the app'-Click link and you'll agree that it's superb 🙂 (https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... production)
-'The solutions pop up at the end of the round'-There is a 60-second timer to use as well, which allows for timing off, asking for both words, and then hitting end-round-early
-'I don't want to use the app'-No worries, there will be spare cards there for you.
Any further queries, let me know, and I'll get back to you!
Last edited by Matt Rutherford on Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Graeme Cole »

Matt Rutherford wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:46 pm Following some consulting with Cal, I can reveal that we'll be trialling something new in Brum...
Many of us have become accustomed with Jack Hurst's superb Countdown app. In Brum, I'm going to trial using it to play the Co:Event games. It allows solutions, maxes, and valid words to be checked a lot faster, and I must confess, it does cut out some minor faff from organizing!
I'll put some immediate worries to bed...
-'I haven't got the app'-Click link and you'll agree that it's superb 🙂 (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details...
)
-'The solutions pop up at the end of the round'-There is a 60-second timer to use as well, which allows for timing off, asking for both words, and then hitting end-round-early
-'I don't want to use the app'-No worries, there will be spare cards there for you.
Any further queries, let me know, and I'll get back to you!
Jack's app may well be superb, but all you get from that link is a 404.

Besides that, I don't know if this has already been thought through, or if you've been in contact with Jack about it, but I can think of a few problems with this idea...
  • Jack's app is only available on Android. Do you know how many attendees use iPhones?
  • The app doesn't (yet) have a 9-rounder option. Currently you can choose from a 3-rounder (LNC), a 15-rounder, or a letters/numbers/conundrum half-attack (10 rounds of one type).
  • Presumably the picking player would ask the host for consonants and vowels, and the host would operate the app to create the selection for the round. But when you play a game on the app, it doesn't let you pick every round. It picks every other round itself automatically, as if it's your opponent.
The plan to let some tables use the app and other tables use the cards is also ringing alarm bells. Jack's app, in common with most Countdowny software, uses some sort of deduplication strategy in the shuffling. This reduces the likelihood of classic Countdown board game selections compared to a randomly shuffled deck. It also tends to increase the average max. The tables using the app would therefore get a small but unfair advantage over those not using it.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by JackHurst »

Well it's great that you are such an enthusiast of the app, and also cool that you are wanting to try and use it for the event. Keep in mind that the app is currently intended for single player use so doesn't really support a "pass n play" style right now. Graeme raises some good points.

Some further points from me:
- Are there accessibility issues? Would people struggle to be crowded round a small screen to get close enough to read the letters?
- There's no undo button on the letters picker. What happens if the host presses the wrong button while picking?
- How would conundrums work? If you want to use the app then there is no promise that a player would not see the same conundrum twice in that day. Also the conundrum generation will give different difficulty conundrums depending on who's phone you are using.
- 60s rounds probably won't give the players long enough to adjudicate every time
- There's way to check word validity below maxes and submaxes. What happens if the selection is RELATIONS and you need to check LASTER
- What happens if I want to come to your event and play? Will the other players distrust me because I have extra knowledge of the inner workings of how rounds are generated? What if they suspect that I have put in a back door to exploit on the day 😂
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Fiona T »

Actually this came up at Brighton. One player had decided to use incoherency to make the letter selections.

I decided this was a no-no for various reasons - one of which is that the shuffling gives the table using incoherency an significant advantage - remember points scored are often what decides the final placings, and you're typically going to get a much higher scoring game with a deduplication mechanism.

It was also worth noting that the table using incoherency finished a full 20 minutes after the next slowest table - I've no idea what the delay was, but the table using software (not dissimilar to Jack's app in the way it operates) took a lot longer than the tables using the traditional cards. There may have been other causes for the slowness - I didn't investigate!

(As an aside incoherency is also unsuitable for adjudication as the dictionary is not current, but that's another issue!)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by L'oisleatch McGraw »

JackHurst wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:24 pm What if they suspect that I have put in a back door to exploit on the day 😂
Rohypnol would probably assist you in that mission.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Graeme Cole »

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:03 am
JackHurst wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:24 pm What if they suspect that I have put in a back door to exploit on the day 😂
Rohypnol would probably assist you in that mission.
I know you have a weird sense of humour but this comment makes neither humour nor sense.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by L'oisleatch McGraw »

Non-arrogant Graeme wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:43 am This comment makes neither humour nor sense to me.
Never mind all that though. There are far more interesting things to discuss.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This discussion has piqued my interest.

It underlines the long-running struggle co-events have had as regards the lack of a top class definitive engine with which to run them.
Obviously the answer should be (and should have been for at least a decade...) APTEROUS. This ticket should really have helped bring that functionality to Apto, but alas no. Not yet.

So what is there, and -given that none of them are perfect- which is the best to use?

1. Atropine
Graeme's python-enabled application is built for tournament use, and is an invaluable resource. There isn't really anything else that can do the job of setting the fixtures, inputting results, and displaying standings as intuitively. Its only real downside is its unsuitability for running QF, SF and Final stages.

2. Apterous
Charlie's site has no template or facility to specifically assist tournament directors in running events. In spite of that, it is still pretty damn good as an engine for running tournaments. Downsides include the very specific game set up that is required, and also the inflexibility around numbers rounds (only one selection type possible per numbers round) and conundrums (you are stuck with whatever is randomly generated... no scope to set themed cons)

3. Countdown Picker
Matt's spreadsheets have been a staple at many of the early co:events I attended (i.e. 2015/2016). But its letters distribution is weird and too dissimilar from the TV show for my likings. The innovation in version 6 whereby the numbers picker features all 5 selections onscreen at one time... is unparalleled and still definitely something worth using.

4. Incoherency
Easy to use, and not bad at all really. This could be used to run an event. One of its best features is that all the maxes, the maxes-1, the maxes-2 etc. are displayed at the end of the round. Obviously all of this is rendered useless by how wrong the dictionary is.

5. Webrack
I don't know enough about this, and no-one has used it for running an event yet... but maybe in the future it will be the one to rule them all and in the darkness bind them? It certainly revolutionised Zoomdown. Maybe it can do the same for the in-person scene?

6. Countdown App
Or maybe that little App that Jack built is the future? Its current limitations for use at co-events have been explored above in some detail. No point retreading that ground. But this has potential, depending on how much new functionality can be coded into it, and whether it stays permanently trapped as android only.

7. Board game
The little cards as found in the CD board game, remain a weirdly popular option. I suppose the hands on is nice, and handy if there is one person (needlessly imo) missing out on playing every 3rd game so they can host. But the lack of the correct deduplication make these a poor choice for offering the realistic CD experience.

8. Actual tiles
These were used at MK and also at Co:Dub 2019 (and possibly some other events around that time?). Aside from being a labour intensive and cumbersome option, these were good fun... and the selections were mostly realistic, though they suffer from the same deduplication problem as the cards.

9. Conundrum Powerpoint
Robbo's conundrum powerpoint (as used at Co:NE, Co:Gal and Co:Wat 2022) is quite user friendly, easy to use, and it looks great. Very useful for setting themed cons. Its one downside is that letters must be inputted one by one in a painstaking fashion. There has to be a better way of doing that bit.

10. Other
Anything else that might be used (e.g. other official or unofficial CD apps etc) cannot rival the first 9 items on this list, so aren't worth discussing.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on this analysis, my current solution is to use a healthy mixture of #1, #2, #3, #9.
Atropine for fixture generation and results entry.
Apterous to generate letters rounds.
Countdown Picker to generate numbers rounds.
Conundrum Powerpoint for conundrums.

This video from co:wat shows a great example of all of those being used in tandem to run a 9R game.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another thing that jumps to mind while reading the discussion is how shortchanged people get with these 'Lincoln*-style' co-events. If 9 games are played, why can't everyone get 9 games? 6 is way too few. Certainly not worth travelling from Ireland for imo. The classroom style event is so much better. It should be the dominant format.

I know there is a school of thought around co-events where "it's not the Countdown that matters, it's the pub after!!!" (and similar wishy washy sentiments.) STRONGLY DISAGREE... if I go to a co-event, I want there to be as much Countdown as is humanly possible crammed into the day. Screw park runs, screw long lunches and screw the pub. Anything that takes time from gameplay is unwelcome, and that includes having to host every other game.

Another co:event gripe... what is the obsession with 9Rers?! It is an obsolete version of the game and has been for over 2 decades now. Let it go. 15R is where the modern game is at. If you feel compelled to play short games, then why not do a short form of the 15Rer? A 7-and-a-half rounder consisting of 5 letters rounds, 2 numbers and a conundrum that is only worth 5pts, would fit the bill nicely!

At co-events using 9Rers, conundrum specialists enjoy an advantage that players of the real game have not enjoyed since the turn of the millennium! That should definitely change.

*Get used to it, Gev! :P
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Fiona T »

Some good points Eoin.

You forgot Tom CC's handy tool for hosting Lincoln style events. It provides timer, number generator and checks maxes and words against the apterous dictionary. https://tinyurl.com/countdownfun (cheers for the friendly URL Maus!)

If you are hosting a Lincoln style event, then one of the many downsides of apterous is that not everyone has an account, inexperienced users are going to struggle to set up the required picking etc etc... (look how many times it went wrong on ZD in the early days when the guest set up the practice game). Apterous really wouldn't work for this.

Out of interest, have you attended a Lincoln style event? I think people who attend both are split on which style of event they prefer - there certainly doesn't appear to be an obvious clear preference for Bristol style. Perhaps people like the format of the first event they attended because that to them feels like what a Countdown event should be. It's worth saying as well that there are many different variations within those formats - random draws (as you did for Waterford), matched draws, groups for QFs etc or not. Fortunately there are enough events that people can choose which format suits them. Style of event is probs one for a separate thread.

However, I don't know if replacing the traditional cards with an app of any sort will take away from the Lincoln experience - I'd give it a go before making a judgement. But that app would need to be designed for the job and at the moment we don't have that.

In an emergency - not enough physical card packs - then at the moment I think the closest tool for hosting a Lincoln game is a combination of Incoherency for letter/number picks and timer, and TCC 's tool for checking validity of words. Obviously switching between these on a phone is a pita - ideally you'd have a second phone to do the checking. Incoherency conundrums are frequently invalid due to dictionary changes, so a different mechanism for those would be needed (the current print out using Graeme's thingy still works, but requires the host to set and check an awful lot of conundrums). The problem with having different tables using different mechanisms has been noted, as well as a possible time issue - I'd certainly want to be doing a dry run with this if I was going to have to rely on it.

As an aside, if there was no social aspect to events - whatever style, I'd travel to any I could get to in an hour but wouldn't be spending the time and money to travel further afield.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by George Armstrong »

If a lack of physical tiles is a problem atm, I'm sure most of us attending have a version of the board game and could bring along a set of tiles?
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Fiona T »

George Armstrong wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:18 am If a lack of physical tiles is a problem atm, I'm sure most of us attending have a version of the board game and could bring along a set of tiles?
Yep it's interesting that at Scrabble tourneys, players are expected to bring their own equipment! I suppose it's more if someone you're expecting to bring lots of sets gets delayed/covid etc...
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Callum Todd »

I think using tech for the letters/numbers is
s a good idea and worth trialling. Obviously as Fiona said, Jack's app isn't designed for this specific purpose so there are a few issues with it but there will be cards for anyone who doesn't like using the tech. I'll sort something out to make sure that's the case.

Just a note on the observations that some tables using tech will have an unfair advantage over those using cards due to 'nicer' selections: most Lincoln style events have several different decks being used across the tables and often some tables have noticeably nicer selections than others so that's not really anything new. If we really are concerned about making sure each table has the same letters distribution either we'd need to make an awful lot of identical sets of letters cards (believe me this is a ballache, and not cheap) and share them around co:events, keeping them well maintained all the while (believe me this is an even bigger ballache, and not realistically possible).
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Fiona T »

Callum Todd wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:52 am I think using tech for the letters/numbers is
s a good idea and worth trialling. Obviously as Fiona said, Jack's app isn't designed for this specific purpose so there are a few issues with it but there will be cards for anyone who doesn't like using the tech. I'll sort something out to make sure that's the case.
I think it's more that we're struggling to see how you would host a 9R Lincoln style game with Jack's app - how would you ensure each player gets to pick their own letters and numbers? You'd need to start a new game for every round, or ignore the computer picked rounds? Mebbe a quick video tutorial on how it should be done before the event so attendees come prepared?
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

Some good points raised here, all of which will have provided good food for thought (as a hosting noob, it's been very useful :) ). I'm mulling some things over and will post with more detailed info later on today
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Fiona T »

My advice (feel free to ignore) would be that as a hosting noob, and relatively inexperienced eventgoer, stick to the tried and tested formula. If things go wrong, there will be plenty of experienced folk who can help you out. If you're doing something experimental and different, then if things go wrong you're on your own.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

(Before I start, I should have made clearer conundrums will still be on paper to allow differentiation on difficulty or crucial-ness)

OK, so feedback onboard...

This is just an optional trial to see how it works. The plan is thus...

Have some tables (ideally about 2-3) in the first round all using the app for letters round only, with traditional cards and TCC’s app being used for the numbers. Using the app will involve skipping rounds where the CPU picks and some minor faffery, but I have play-tested it at home with other people, and it was workable. There will be a written guide there for help. No-one will have to use the app if they don't want to but if a couple of tables could give it a go, that would be grand.

If it takes too long/doesn’t work/drives people insane, I will scrap it and use cards for the remaining rounds, but if things go OK, I’ll keep tables on the app for following rounds and encourage others to use it. And if people want to use cards, that is no problem.

I do think it’s worth trialling something like this as a way forward. I recognize the app in it’s current form may not be entirely ideal, but it’s still worth a trial. If it goes well, huzzah. If it goes horrendously, then there’ll be lessons to learn from it-R1 has the buffer of lunch if things go spectacularly wrong and there will be contingencies in places As has been pointed out, using apps is a way forward-this is a small-scale optional trial to test the waters :)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by JackHurst »

Callum Todd wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:52 am
Just a note on the observations that some tables using tech will have an unfair advantage over those using cards due to 'nicer' selections: most Lincoln style events have several different decks being used across the tables and often some tables have noticeably nicer selections than others so that's not really anything new...
What about the element of choice? At a Co Event you have no choice, it's luck of the draw what deck of cards you get for each round.

How would it work using the app on the day? Will people choose? What if you have players at a table with conflicting choices?
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

JackHurst wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:18 pm
Callum Todd wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:52 am
Just a note on the observations that some tables using tech will have an unfair advantage over those using cards due to 'nicer' selections: most Lincoln style events have several different decks being used across the tables and often some tables have noticeably nicer selections than others so that's not really anything new...
What about the element of choice? At a Co Event you have no choice, it's luck of the draw what deck of cards you get for each round.

How would it work using the app on the day? Will people choose? What if you have players at a table with conflicting choices?
I will pre-select and consult with individual tables on the day. Say one table has Player A, B, and C, where player A and B are OK with the app, but C isn't, then the app can be trialled in the game between A and B. If more than two people on a table do not wish to use the app, then they will not have to
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Adam Beach »

George Armstrong wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:18 am If a lack of physical tiles is a problem atm, I'm sure most of us attending have a version of the board game and could bring along a set of tiles?
Hi friends :) First post on here, but have been familiar with the site for years, so thought I'd chip in for once.

This is exactly what I'm going to be doing for Lincoln-styled events. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the tech side being used for the game as a whole: phone screens are smaller than the cards, perhaps making selections more difficult to see for some; and, technology being what it is, your device could spontaneously shut down from low battery and/or what-not, causing delays. So yeah, I'd rather opt for the old-fashioned method of cards lined up on the table, and save the tech aspect for solutions.

Me being the quirky weirdo that I am, I've also had some letter, number and target number tiles printed (in the style of the show's) to bring to these events, as I find it a lot easier to solve rounds when the tiles look exactly how they do on the telly (white on blue, same font etc). That's just me, though - a strange one. :shock: :geek:

No disrespect to those who opt for an app or other system, however. It's each to their own in my opinion, and it's never a bad thing to experiment with new techniques. The objective is having fun :)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by L'oisleatch McGraw »

I agree that the letters would be annoyingly small if using an App on a phone.
The easiest fix for this problem is to retire Lincoln-style as an event type.
Though hopefully it sticks around for long enough that I get to go to one, as nope, I've not been yet...
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Morrison »

I know I don't really go to events any more anyway, so take it with a pinch of salt, but I definitely wouldn't go to an event being run on an app.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Jack Neal »

Fiona T wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:29 am Some good points Eoin.

You forgot Tom CC's handy tool for hosting Lincoln style events. It provides timer, number generator and checks maxes and words against the apterous dictionary. https://tinyurl.com/countdownfun (cheers for the friendly URL Maus!)

If you are hosting a Lincoln style event, then one of the many downsides of apterous is that not everyone has an account, inexperienced users are going to struggle to set up the required picking etc etc... (look how many times it went wrong on ZD in the early days when the guest set up the practice game). Apterous really wouldn't work for this.

Out of interest, have you attended a Lincoln style event? I think people who attend both are split on which style of event they prefer - there certainly doesn't appear to be an obvious clear preference for Bristol style. Perhaps people like the format of the first event they attended because that to them feels like what a Countdown event should be. It's worth saying as well that there are many different variations within those formats - random draws (as you did for Waterford), matched draws, groups for QFs etc or not. Fortunately there are enough events that people can choose which format suits them. Style of event is probs one for a separate thread.

However, I don't know if replacing the traditional cards with an app of any sort will take away from the Lincoln experience - I'd give it a go before making a judgement. But that app would need to be designed for the job and at the moment we don't have that.

In an emergency - not enough physical card packs - then at the moment I think the closest tool for hosting a Lincoln game is a combination of Incoherency for letter/number picks and timer, and TCC 's tool for checking validity of words. Obviously switching between these on a phone is a pita - ideally you'd have a second phone to do the checking. Incoherency conundrums are frequently invalid due to dictionary changes, so a different mechanism for those would be needed (the current print out using Graeme's thingy still works, but requires the host to set and check an awful lot of conundrums). The problem with having different tables using different mechanisms has been noted, as well as a possible time issue - I'd certainly want to be doing a dry run with this if I was going to have to rely on it.

As an aside, if there was no social aspect to events - whatever style, I'd travel to any I could get to in an hour but wouldn't be spending the time and money to travel further afield.
You could always use max percentage instead of raw points to decide the finalists.

For example if the max was 150 and a player scored 90 the percentage would be 60. This would make it fair for everyone.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Graeme Cole »

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:29 am 5. Webrack
I don't know enough about this, and no-one has used it for running an event yet... but maybe in the future it will be the one to rule them all and in the darkness bind them? It certainly revolutionised Zoomdown. Maybe it can do the same for the in-person scene?
No, WebRack won't get adopted for in-person events. The various pages in it aren't designed for phone screens, especially the admin interface. More importantly, WebRack is designed for when everyone's in a different place, so it's hosted on a web server. Every time there's any change to the game state - even picking a consonant or vowel - one person's browser sends a message to the server and the other people's browsers receive the new game state from the server. In theory you *could* use it with everyone at the same table with their own device, but there are far better ways of doing it that don't rely on everyone having a good internet connection and a laptop. And if you *do* have a good internet connection and laptops at a co-event and you want to use them, you might as well use Apterous.
L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:29 am Another thing that jumps to mind while reading the discussion is how shortchanged people get with these 'Lincoln*-style' co-events. If 9 games are played, why can't everyone get 9 games? 6 is way too few. Certainly not worth travelling from Ireland for imo. The classroom style event is so much better. It should be the dominant format.
It's an opinion... not one I agree with at all, but nevertheless indisputably an opinion.

It's worth remembering that if it's efficiency you want, Bristol/classroom style has its own problems, especially if there's a large number of players. In general, you can host a Lincoln-style game between only two people faster than you can host the same game Bristol-style.

At a Bristol-style event, a few hands go up at the end of the round, all wanting to ask about a different word, and for each one the host has to ask for the word, ask for them to repeat it, call for quiet from everyone else, ask them to repeat it again a bit louder, then someone asks about a word they didn't declare but is curious about... etc. That's before you get on to the other problems like hearing other tables' declarations and players adjudicating their own conundrum buzzes.

To take an example: the most well-attended Bristol-style event in recent (pre-pandemic) years was Milton Keynes. It started in the morning about 10:30-11am and went on until 6-7pm, so it was a good couple of hours longer than, say, COLIN. Despite that and various time-saving practices like announcing all the maxes after every round to save people asking about them, there were only eight 9-round games plus a final, and even that was a tough squeeze. Usually we barely managed to fit all the games in before before everyone had to rush off to whatever group dinner had been booked in the evening.
L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:29 am Another co:event gripe... what is the obsession with 9Rers?! It is an obsolete version of the game and has been for over 2 decades now. Let it go. 15R is where the modern game is at. If you feel compelled to play short games, then why not do a short form of the 15Rer? A 7-and-a-half rounder consisting of 5 letters rounds, 2 numbers and a conundrum that is only worth 5pts, would fit the bill nicely!
We don't use 9-rounders as some doomed attempt to maintain traditions of the past. We use them so we can fit more games in. Even if you go back as far as the first COLIN in 2005, that used 9-rounders even though the TV format had moved to 15 rounds four years previously. Some events do use 15 rounders, but the tradeoff is that you play fewer games.
Last edited by Graeme Cole on Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Graeme Cole »

Jack Neal wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:30 pm You could always use max percentage instead of raw points to decide the finalists.

For example if the max was 150 and a player scored 90 the percentage would be 60. This would make it fair for everyone.
On the surface this sounds like it might be a better system, but IMO it isn't, and it would be quite difficult to run an event like that anyway.

Plenty of game hosts simply don't bother checking the max of every round, and who can blame them - the information isn't needed, after all. So first the organiser would have to ensure every host remembers to check the max of every round and note down the game's max, or go through the scoresheet and do it themselves when people inevitably forget. Then the organiser would either have to divide each player's score by the max to get a percentage, or rely on every game host to do that correctly and write it on the scoresheet.

Then how would you calculate the standings table? Enter the max percentage as if it's the score? You're out of luck if you're using Atropine, because that requires all scores to be integers. You could round them, but that 0.5 percentage points might be the difference between someone making the final or not.

But let's say you're using a system that can perfectly deal with percentages as scores, and everyone diligently fills in the max percentage correctly on the scoresheet. Would it be fair?

It might be fairer in some cases, but really you're just swapping existing problems for a whole load of new ones. For example, let's say that in one game, player A gets 7 in each of three letters rounds, but in each case there were a boatload of easy 8s. In another game, player B plays three letters rounds and spots three good 8s, but in one round there was a really obscure 9 which nobody's heard of. Player A's max percentage is 21/24 = 87.5%, but player B's max percentage is 24/34 = 70.6%. Is that fair?
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by JackHurst »

I'd be interested to know the split between people who play at co events by looking at the tiles vs those who wrote the selection down and play from their handwriting?

Personally I find looking at the tiles incredibly difficult so I always write down letters and numbers.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by L'oisleatch McGraw »

I have done both.
My instinct is to write it down, and work from there...
...but have found when I abandon that, and just look at the selections onscreen, my performance improves.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by George Armstrong »

There's a case for doing both. Writing the letters down in a different order of configuration (like those mad folk who do it in a square) can help you see a word that you mightn't have seen with the letters in their original order. Take https://wiki.apterous.org/Episode_6991 where Tom got TIRAMISUS from IATSUMIRS. He wrote them out in CV7 order (as I do myself at events) as they came out, so TISAMURIS. Five of the letters are already in the right place making the nine easier to see.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Gavin Chipper »

JackHurst wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:05 am I'd be interested to know the split between people who play at co events by looking at the tiles vs those who wrote the selection down and play from their handwriting?

Personally I find looking at the tiles incredibly difficult so I always write down letters and numbers.
I write down the letters when playing at home, and even on Apterous (except for short rounds), so of course I do it for CO-events. At least watching on television and on Apterous you've got a nice consistent layout, whereas sometimes at CO-events the cards are all over the gaff so it would be quite hard to focus on them. And expecially with Bristol style when the letters are so far away it just makes it harder to focus and concentrate on them. And also I write the letter down in a 3x3 grid (like some others do) so it's nice to have two different perspectives regardless.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Jack Neal »

Graeme Cole wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:00 pm
Jack Neal wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:30 pm You could always use max percentage instead of raw points to decide the finalists.

For example if the max was 150 and a player scored 90 the percentage would be 60. This would make it fair for everyone.
On the surface this sounds like it might be a better system, but IMO it isn't, and it would be quite difficult to run an event like that anyway.

Plenty of game hosts simply don't bother checking the max of every round, and who can blame them - the information isn't needed, after all. So first the organiser would have to ensure every host remembers to check the max of every round and note down the game's max, or go through the scoresheet and do it themselves when people inevitably forget. Then the organiser would either have to divide each player's score by the max to get a percentage, or rely on every game host to do that correctly and write it on the scoresheet.

Then how would you calculate the standings table? Enter the max percentage as if it's the score? You're out of luck if you're using Atropine, because that requires all scores to be integers. You could round them, but that 0.5 percentage points might be the difference between someone making the final or not.

But let's say you're using a system that can perfectly deal with percentages as scores, and everyone diligently fills in the max percentage correctly on the scoresheet. Would it be fair?

It might be fairer in some cases, but really you're just swapping existing problems for a whole load of new ones. For example, let's say that in one game, player A gets 7 in each of three letters rounds, but in each case there were a boatload of easy 8s. In another game, player B plays three letters rounds and spots three good 8s, but in one round there was a really obscure 9 which nobody's heard of. Player A's max percentage is 21/24 = 87.5%, but player B's max percentage is 24/34 = 70.6%. Is that fair?
Hi Graeme,

OK i get what your saying:

1) could obscure words be omitted from max count?
2) what about possibly using flat 1-0 scoring to count the points (but determine the winner using the normal system)

Jack
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

So there's been some interesting conversations arising from the proposed trial...

I've been having a consider of the feedback, and I hold my hands up. I made an error-proposing to use it for games straight out was way too gung-ho. Sorry for the confusion that has been caused (hindsight is a glorious thing :) ) but I'm glad it's sparked some thoughts.

To be clear, all games that count towards the event score will use cards

On that note, the app is still something I would want to trial-it's worth a shot (Cal noting tech is being used more and more at our jovial gatherings) With worries about maxes and fairness being particularly notable, the intention is to play some Co:Event-style games using the app, to see how it could go. For fun only, not counting towards the final event score, during the lunch break.

As said-it's still worth a go. Just to see what works and what doesn't in a full test. It can still get its trial without concerns of anyone getting a possible advantage. If anyone would be up for it, let me know.

Thanks again to all who provided feedback-the points raised have been interesting. Hope to see you in the Midlands 8-)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Graeme Cole »

Jack Neal wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:41 pm Hi Graeme,

OK i get what your saying:

1) could obscure words be omitted from max count?
2) what about possibly using flat 1-0 scoring to count the points (but determine the winner using the normal system)

Jack
1. Only if you also want to come up with a fair and easily checkable way to determine whether a word is "obscure" that nobody can argue with, and make every game host apply that correctly to every max calculation. Then what if someone spots an obscure darrenic 8? Is that 8/8 or 8/7?

2. So the winner of the game is determined as normal, but the standings table is ranked by wins then rounds won? (Or is it wins then rounds scored on?) There have been events that have used 1-0 scoring for some rounds, but I don't think this specific idea has ever been tried, so who knows, it might work. However, every game host would have to do more work, keeping track of the game's score twice using different systems. Also, the winner of the game might not be the one who won (or scored on) most rounds, so whatever you're using to calculate the standings table would have to know that whoever got more "points" isn't necessarily the winner of the game. (If you're using Atropine, no, it can't do that and nor is it ever likely to - the assumption that a game has only one kind of "score" and that the higher-scoring player wins is a pretty pervasive one.)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Jack Neal »

Matt Rutherford wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:10 pm So there's been some interesting conversations arising from the proposed trial...

I've been having a consider of the feedback, and I hold my hands up. I made an error-proposing to use it for games straight out was way too gung-ho. Sorry for the confusion that has been caused (hindsight is a glorious thing :) ) but I'm glad it's sparked some thoughts.

To be clear, all games that count towards the event score will use cards

On that note, the app is still something I would want to trial-it's worth a shot (Cal noting tech is being used more and more at our jovial gatherings) With worries about maxes and fairness being particularly notable, the intention is to play some Co:Event-style games using the app, to see how it could go. For fun only, not counting towards the final event score, during the lunch break.

As said-it's still worth a go. Just to see what works and what doesn't in a full test. It can still get its trial without concerns of anyone getting a possible advantage. If anyone would be up for it, let me know.

Thanks again to all who provided feedback-the points raised have been interesting. Hope to see you in the Midlands 8-)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Jack Neal »

Graeme Cole wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:45 pm
Jack Neal wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:41 pm Hi Graeme,

OK i get what your saying:

1) could obscure words be omitted from max count?
2) what about possibly using flat 1-0 scoring to count the points (but determine the winner using the normal system)

Jack
1. Only if you also want to come up with a fair and easily checkable way to determine whether a word is "obscure" that nobody can argue with, and make every game host apply that correctly to every max calculation. Then what if someone spots an obscure darrenic 8? Is that 8/8 or 8/7?

2. So the winner of the game is determined as normal, but the standings table is ranked by wins then rounds won? (Or is it wins then rounds scored on?) There have been events that have used 1-0 scoring for some rounds, but I don't think this specific idea has ever been tried, so who knows, it might work. However, every game host would have to do more work, keeping track of the game's score twice using different systems. Also, the winner of the game might not be the one who won (or scored on) most rounds, so whatever you're using to calculate the standings table would have to know that whoever got more "points" isn't necessarily the winner of the game. (If you're using Atropine, no, it can't do that and nor is it ever likely to - the assumption that a game has only one kind of "score" and that the higher-scoring player wins is a pretty pervasive one.)
If it was a drawn round i'd give 0.5 each. Or to scale it up to integers, it could be 2 for winning a round and 1 for drawing a round.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by JackHurst »

Train strikes same day as co Brum
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62325025
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Fiona T »

JackHurst wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:48 pm Train strikes same day as co Brum
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62325025
NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ElmE-cCtXs

Though I can't forgive them for "their" not "they're"...
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

There was much swearing last night when this came through and good grief this is annoying

I'm meeting a friend who is helping me with some stuff (i.e moving equipment and doing some admin) to plan some more stuff this afternoon. I'll post (here and on Facebook) bus guides and other travel options.

Given that it would cock everyone over who may have booked hotels, I'm reluctant to change date, but that would be an option in extremis if it no-one would be able to make it.

There'll be a way through. Watch this space!

PS-Ta for the link, Fiona-gave me a chuckle in amongst the stress :)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Adam Dexter »

Posted on fb - copied to here in case of non-users

I will likely be driving in - if anyone is on my route (Worcestershire via north side of Brum to Chester Road) you can hop in. Please note this does exclude Brum centre (they have an punitive congestion charge).
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We're off to button moon :)
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Tom S »

May make things difficult for me. Will give you notice if I have to drop out.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Is this an official Commonwealth Games event by the way?
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

P W Pts
1 Bradley Horrocks 6 6 385
2 Andy Platt 6 4 375
3 George Armstrong 6 4 368
4 Adam Latchford 6 4 344
5 Fiona Titcombe 6 4 316
6 Dave Robjohns 6 4 315
6 Richard Priest 6 4 315
8 Adam Dexter 6 3 299
9 Mike Lee 6 3 293
10 Rachael Montgomery 6 3 283
11 Darren Godfrey 6 3 268
12 Adam Beach 6 3 215
13 James Robinson 6 2 350
14 Stewart Gordon 6 2 302
15 Alex Williamson 6 2 268
16 Phil Stanton 6 1 287
17 Ashwin Abinashi 6 1 251
18 Damian McEvoy 6 1 237


RESULTS

Round 1

Table 1
Fiona Titcombe 36 - 45 Mike Lee
Mike Lee 59 - 46 Alex Williamson
Alex Williamson 58 - 52 Fiona Titcombe

Table 2
Phil Stanton 43 - 81 Adam Dexter
Adam Dexter 47 - 46 Damian McEvoy
Damian McEvoy 60 - 57 Phil Stanton

Table 3
Adam Beach 17 - 59 Stewart Gordon
Stewart Gordon 63 - 66 Andy Platt
Andy Platt 53 - 57 Adam Beach

Table 4
Richard Priest 55 - 43 Darren Godfrey
Darren Godfrey 19 - 62 Bradley Horrocks
Bradley Horrocks 59 - 39 Richard Priest

Table 5
James Robinson 66 - 74 George Armstrong
George Armstrong 55 - 58 Dave Robjohns
Dave Robjohns 61 - 51 James Robinson

Table 6
Rachael Montgomery 42 - 35 Ashwin Abinashi
Ashwin Abinashi 45 - 67 Adam Latchford
Adam Latchford 80 - 37 Rachael Montgomery

Round 2

Table 1
Adam Dexter 40 - 51 Dave Robjohns
Dave Robjohns 32 - 44 Adam Latchford
Adam Latchford 59 - 35 Adam Dexter

Table 2
Mike Lee 29 - 52 George Armstrong
George Armstrong 48 - 82 Bradley Horrocks
Bradley Horrocks 62*- 52 Mike Lee

Table 3
Damian McEvoy 31 - 49 Alex Williamson
Alex Williamson 49 - 77 Andy Platt
Andy Platt 64 - 35 Damian McEvoy

Table 4
Richard Priest 51 - 59 Rachael Montgomery
Rachael Montgomery 54 - 41 Stewart Gordon
Stewart Gordon 45 - 52 Richard Priest

Table 5
James Robinson 70 - 40 Phil Stanton
Phil Stanton 47 - 55 Adam Beach
Adam Beach 19 - 54 James Robinson

Table 6
Ashwin Abinashi 44 - 64 Darren Godfrey
Darren Godfrey 43 - 60 Fiona Titcombe
Fiona Titcombe 59 - 31 Ashwin Abinashi

Round 3

Table 1
Adam Latchford 41 - 65 Andy Platt
Andy Platt 50 - 67 Bradley Horrocks
Bradley Horrocks 63 - 53 Adam Latchford

Table 2
Rachael Montgomery 44 - 50 Fiona Titcombe
Fiona Titcombe 59 - 45 Dave Robjohns
Dave Robjohns 68 - 47 Rachael Montgomery

Table 3
Adam Dexter 60 - 32 Alex Williamson
Alex Williamson 34 - 58 George Armstrong
George Armstrong 81 - 36 Adam Dexter

Table 4
Richard Priest 59 - 51 Mike Lee
Mike Lee 57 - 55 James Robinson
James Robinson 54 - 59 Richard Priest

Table 5
Damian McEvoy 28 - 39 Darren Godfrey
Darren Godfrey 60 - 28 Adam Beach
Adam Beach 39 - 37 Damian McEvoy

Table 6
Phil Stanton 51 - 54 Ashwin Abinashi
Ashwin Abinashi 42 - 51 Stewart Gordon
Stewart Gordon 43 - 49 Phil Stanton

Grand Final
Bradley Horrocks 87-81 Andy Platt
Last edited by Matt Rutherford on Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Fiona T »

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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Did a parkrun happen?
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Fiona T »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:53 pm Did a parkrun happen?
Not that anyone confessed to!

Did one of those fitness bootcamp things yesterday morning - can barely move today, so very late night and last minute decision to drive to Birmingham gave the excuse I needed to skip it for once!
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Andres Sanchez »

Hey I'm deciding to do the recap of the final for the wiki page, and I'm getting the points tallied up to be Bradley winning 87-81. Can someone check over to make sure I'm not going insane?
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Fiona T »

Andres Sanchez wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:14 pm Hey I'm deciding to do the recap of the final for the wiki page, and I'm getting the points tallied up to be Bradley winning 87-81. Can someone check over to make sure I'm not going insane?
yep

73 - 59
81 - 67
81 - 77
81 - 87
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

My erorr :) -cheers for correcting
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Andres Sanchez »

No worries, mate! Now it may help if I knew where the other previous events are in this forum so I could patch up those.
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Re: Co:Brum 2022

Post by Matt Rutherford »

So it was great fun, despite being small in number. As a hosting debut, it was brilliant. Thank you all who rocked up, along Joe for helping me out, with Fiona and George for their help Atropine, and Adam for making the certificates. with congrats to Brad and Andy for their victories. Other things to note include Adam's max game in the first set. I hope to host this again next year-thank you again!
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