The future of COLIN

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How should COLIN proceed in future?

Annually, but stripped back a bit
16
89%
Bi-annually
1
6%
Maybe time to call it a day
1
6%
 
Total votes: 18

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Ben Wilson
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The future of COLIN

Post by Ben Wilson »

Evening all

It's been a couple of months, so it's probably time to make this post. As most people are probably aware, I've been hosting COLIN- Countdown in Lincoln, aka 'the Lincoln co-event'- for 17 years. That's a long time by anyone's standards, and while I've certainly had a lot of fun, organising an event isn't exactly a walk in the park, even for one that's as routine as COLIN has become.

This year, everything seemed to conspire against the event in the weeks leading up to it. First omicron started running rampant, then the venue for the Saturday event casually told me I'd been double-booked, then as the event drew near, it became apparent I wasn't going to come close to breaking even on the money spent on the event. I won't go into details, but suffice to say I took a pretty hefty hit. Then, ten days before the event, I made a decision- 2022 would be my last COLIN.

...And then the event itself happened and despite the lower than expected numbers, I found myself having as much fun as I did during the previous 16 events. But the hit to my bank balance still has me wary about future events, to the extent that I don't really think I can continue hosting COLIN at the same 'level' I have before- if I do continue.

The way I see it, there are a few ways I can go with this- carry on as normal and accept I'm going to be losing money every January; carry on annually, but in a stripped-back sense (no puzzle mag, fewer freebies, even crappie prizes/trophies); carry on annually, but split the organising duties with anyone daft enough to accept them; host the event as usual, but every 2 years (or even more infrequently); or just call it a day here.

I'm open to everyone's opinions on this- after all, I'm not the one playing at the event (usually).
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Adam Gillard
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Adam Gillard »

I've really enjoyed COLIN when I've been, and I appreciate all the effort you've put in to organising and running it. I'm sorry to hear that you made a significant loss this year and it's natural for you to consider the continued cost and effort of running the event.

If you don't already have a preference in mind then I would suggest you do what's best for you and don't lean too heavily on the results of the poll. This is your time and money and you're allowed to be undemocratic about that.

Thanks for some wonderfully run events, for being open and welcoming and for giving me the chance to be part of the in-person Countdown community.
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Gavin Chipper
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Well yeah, obviously it's up to you but I still see COLIN as the main and most prestigious CO event and I would carry on attending in future if you were to keep on running it. I always enjoy it. I know I didn't go this year but that was due to circumstances beyond my control!

I don't know how much money you lost but I'm sure people wouldn't be averse to paying a few extra pounds in the entry fee, especially considering that it's likely to be negligible compared to their travel and accommodation costs plus other spending. I think that might be preferable to stripping it back, but then it depends on exactly how stripped back it would be. Either way, I'd still be in favour of an annual COLIN. (I'm voting for the stripped back option but only because it's the only annual option.)
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Bradley Horrocks
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Bradley Horrocks »

COLIN gives me something to look forward to in the height of winter, and it would be sad to lose it. More importantly, organisers shouldn't have to run events making a financial loss. Most come for the games of Countdown and/or the social aspects, so it would be well worth in my view having less/cheaper prizes and no puzzle mag to keep the event sustainable.
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Callum Todd
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Callum Todd »

Echo what Adam said about not being bound by the results of this poll. And what Gavin said about a higher entry fee.
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Elliott Mellor
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Elliott Mellor »

I know I'm not really in a great position to comment on this as I've never been an attendee myself, but at least from the perspective of feedback from friends who have been, it's something they hugely look forward to and supplies them with a great deal of enjoyment and social opportunities. Only you know the scale of the loss, so only you know whether this is a case of "upping the entry fee by a few pounds would cover it" or whether it's "I've made such a catastrophic financial loss that the entry fee would have to dramatically increase (which might make it inaccessible to people)".

You're definitely not bound by the results of this poll, this is ultimately your money (and time). Even if you could technically cover the costs by upping the entry fee, it's clearly quite a laborious event to organise and that also needs to factor in to this equation.
Last edited by Elliott Mellor on Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Fiona T »

I echo the other sentiments - as a relative newbie I've very much enjoyed Colin. Personally I don't think branded notepads/pens/coasters are necessary unless you have an excess of dosh to get rid of!

As far as running at a loss, as long as you're keeping records, I'd feel inclined to add however much is necessary to next year's entry to make up this year's shortfall if you do decide to continue the event.
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Paul Anderson »

Organising my first event, I hear you Ben. You want to provide a great experience but not break the bank either. I agree with Fiona's point about branded stuff, that must cost a fair bit, hence why I ordered the basics, hoping that folk aren't coming for the free pen/notepad but the CD and the craic.
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Elliott Mellor »

Fiona T wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:36 am I echo the other sentiments - as a relative newbie I've very much enjoyed Colin. Personally I don't think branded notepads/pens/coasters are necessary unless you have an excess of dosh to get rid of!

As far as running at a loss, as long as you're keeping records, I'd feel inclined to add however much is necessary to next year's entry to make up this year's shortfall if you do decide to continue the event.
This is a very good point.

Worth noting that you could potentially still keep some of the "bells and whistles", but maybe only those that people really think are worthwhile. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing approach, so long as you are able to keep within your financial constraints. For instance, I don't think that my experience of Blackpool (to date, my only event) would have been significantly enhanced by having branded notepads and such. It's obviously nice to have something a bit fancy, but I think it's an expense that could be done away with without people's enjoyment being tarnished.

Also agree that it's not unreasonable to try and recoup at least some of this year's losses by adding to the entry fee for next year's event (if it goes ahead).
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Callum Todd
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Callum Todd »

Ben Wilson wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:27 pm [...] carry on annually, but split the organising duties with anyone daft enough to accept them [...]
I'm having a think about this idea of cooperative event organisation and will raise it in the next FOCAL event organisers email thread, so if this is an option you decide you'd be most comfortable going with let me know and I'll see what we can organise.
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Graeme Cole
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Graeme Cole »

My opinion is much the same as what's already been said, particularly regarding the support and praise for the community's longest-running event. I also echo the comments about the entry fee, which is usually the smallest expense someone spends when attending a co-event.

We all know organisers don't run co-events as lucrative money-making schemes - the entry fee is charged mainly to cover the cost of hiring the venue and buying the prizes etc. Nobody expects an organiser to subsidise an event out of their own pocket, so when the entry fees aren't covering the costs, it's a no-brainer what happens next.

At COLIN 2022, the two-day entry fee was the lowest it's been since 2015. That, on top of high inflation this year and the loss in 2022, makes an entry fee increase very easy to justify.

I would hope COLIN continues in much the same form as now for as long as there's sufficient demand. It's just a question of how long that demand will last, considering that at the most recent COLIN, numbers were down and there were quite a few COLIN regulars who weren't there.

It has to be said that the community has changed quite a bit compared with a decade or so ago. C4C isn't where a lot of the community is nowadays. Most Countdowny people are on Apterous and/or the Facebook groups now, and the impression I get (I forget who exactly mentioned this) is that most of the new people prefer the events which are easy to get to and from with public transport - the ones in cities rather than a train or bus ride away from the nearest mainline station.

In COLIN's early days it was one of only two or three events on the calendar, and if you were a new or casual player who only attended a couple of events in the year, COLIN was almost certainly one of them. Those players got to see first hand how enjoyable and well run the event and its surrounding festivities were, and that's why I and people who joined the community around that time continue to return to COLIN every year, even if it is a bit of a pain to get to.

Nowadays, COLIN has to compete with events in places like London and Manchester, all with major transport links. COLIN's history and reputation helps a lot - there are plenty of players who stopped coming to most events years ago but still came to every COLIN until quite recently. But the casual player who found the community in 2020 and only attends a couple of events a year probably doesn't have COLIN on their list.

I realise the suggestion you may already have seen coming would be a significant break with years of tradition involving a certain pub and a certain hotel, but let's at least consider... what if the event were actually in Lincoln?
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Graeme Cole
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Graeme Cole »

There's one potential saving that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet. The Sunday Hangover event, while enjoyable, gets consistently lower numbers, and it seems like numbers are the issue. (Edit to add: it also has a lower entry fee yet imposes on Ben an organisational burden similar to the Saturday event.) People accustomed to other events wouldn't expect a Sunday event to be a thing anyway, and COLIN's main Saturday event used to stand perfectly well on its own. If you're looking for a way to scale COLIN back while retaining the essential elements of the event, there's the obvious answer.
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Callum Todd
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Callum Todd »

iirc, in 2022 COLIN cost £16 to go to both events, so basically £8 per event.

£15 isn't unusual as an event entry fee (and will probably become the average or even minimum over the next year given how the cost of everything is rising), so £15 per event or £25 for the two would be reasonable and I don't think there would have been any fewer attendees to the event this year had that been the case. If so, that price difference could have put around £300 extra in the kitty. I'm happy to retrospectively pay a remainder of an entry fee for this year's event to do my bit to offset your loss.

Obviously all of this is only taking the financial side into account, rather than the more important factor which is your wellbeing and the stress organising the event may have caused you. I imagine the financial thing was part of that stress though and it's probably the easiest part to address. Hopefully we can sort something out with the potential FOCAL teamwork mentioned above to alleviate other stressors for event organisers.
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Gavin Chipper
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Graeme Cole wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:25 pm I realise the suggestion you may already have seen coming would be a significant break with years of tradition involving a certain pub and a certain hotel, but let's at least consider... what if the event were actually in Lincoln?
A lot of people don't know this but the LIN in COLIN is actually a shortening of Lincoln Thorpe-on-the-Hill Travelodge, not Lincoln itself, so if it was moved to Lincoln, it would be a different event and would have to be called something like COLINC to avoid confusion.
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Mark Deeks
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Mark Deeks »

what if the event were actually in Lincoln?
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Ben Wilson
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Ben Wilson »

First of all, many thanks to everyone for their votes on the poll and your kind comments about COLIN. :-) I just want to address a few points-

'If you don't want to do it anymore, then don't'

Believe me, I wouldn't, and this is far from the first time I've thought about cancelling it, it's just the furthest I've gone down that route so far. But the point is that I do always enjoy the actual day itself, hosting the event, seeing everyone, everything. It's just the run-up to the event that's a bit stressful and the added financial factor didn't help.

'Up the price' and 'the entry fee is usually the smallest cost of the weekend'

True, but a price tag of £25 will always be less appealing than £15. If memory serves, the first time I charged for entry (2007) it was about £8 for the day. Yes, there's inflation, yes, there are additional costs, but people still look at the entry fee and factor that into their decision over whether or not to attend. I usually decide the entry fee based on 'this many people at the main event and this many people at the hangover equals however much I need to break even' where 'this many people' is how many I expect to show up to the event. Obviously I got that a bit wrong this year. But an increase in the fee by just £5 would've negated any loss.

'Drop the puzzle magazine/branded freebies'

This is looking like a necessity going forward.

'Have cheaper prizes'

I literally make them myself out of bits of clear acrylic, I'm not sure they can get much cheaper lol.

'Host the event in Lincoln itself'

Would involve finding new venues, and I have a good relationship with both the Ark and the Memorial Hall which gives me (small, but not insignificant) mate's rates, which brings me back around to the cost again. I know from some prior experience that venues closer to the city centre aren't cheap. Hell, for 2020 I looked at moving the main event across the road to the social club this one) and the cost would've been about 2 1/2 times what I pay for the Ark/MH. Though this does lead me to...

'Drop the hangover'

This is the one I can't give a firm answer to. The hangover was partially introduced as Sunday trains from Lincoln were notoriously shit (about 15 years ago, the first train between Lincoln and Nottingham- the busiest route out of Lincoln- was at about 4pm). The situation has improved greatly since then but I've noticed that numbers for the hangover are generally above expectations (it's never been below 30 players, assuming you include people who show up late) and it's not actually that much of a hassle to organise- it's shorter, all of the 'infrastructure' like conundrums, stationery etc can be handled at the same time as the main event with minimal fuss and it is very much a USP for COLIN. However, if people would prefer not to attend the Sunday event- well, no one's forcing them to (indeed, there are 10 people who've attended 5 or more Saturday events but never a Sunday one, well done to anyone who can name all of them). But if the general consensus is that people would prefer to go home on the Saturday/earlier on the Sunday, well, it's something I can look into.
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Matt Morrison
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Matt Morrison »

I'm not sure about 3 of them!
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Matt Morrison
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Matt Morrison »

(Not a very impressive answer in the circumstances.)
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by JackHurst »

Ben Wilson wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:08 pm True, but a price tag of £25 will always be less appealing than £15. If memory serves, the first time I charged for entry (2007) it was about £8 for the day. Yes, there's inflation, yes, there are additional costs, but people still look at the entry fee and factor that into their decision over whether or not to attend. I usually decide the entry fee based on 'this many people at the main event and this many people at the hangover equals however much I need to break even' where 'this many people' is how many I expect to show up to the event. Obviously I got that a bit wrong this year. But an increase in the fee by just £5 would've negated any loss.
Yeah I'm more than happy to pay more. Colin is quite a bit cheaper than it needs to be. I don't think anybody has ever been on the fence about giving up a weekend of their valuable time to come to Colin, and the deciding factor has been "wow it's so cheap".
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Rhys Benjamin
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Rhys Benjamin »

To echo Jack's point, co-event pricing, especially Lincoln and London, is fairly inelastic: if pricing issues do put people off, it will be the combination of travel/hotel/etc, not the entry fee itself. Taking my recent cricket event in Brighton in January as a very rough guide, you don't get much change out of £100 *at best*, and that's not including food, drinks, etc. So to that extent, regarding Lincoln and London, which (pre-Covid) would attract north of 60 people on a regular basis, there's not a lot of difference between 60x£15 and 36x£25 as it is, and that's assuming the numbers drop that much, which I doubt for Lincoln and London.

tl;dr - you're overthinking the importance of the entry fee.
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Ben Wilson
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Ben Wilson »

Just to confirm that COLIN will now definitely be going ahead in the last weekend of January next year under the 'slightly scaled back' regime detailed above (covid/other real world shit allowing, of course). Full details to be announced later this summer. :)
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Callum Todd
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Re: The future of COLIN

Post by Callum Todd »

Great news Ben, hope the organising is a more enjoyable experience for you this time around. Holler if you need any help.
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