Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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Callum Todd
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Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Callum Todd »

Okay so this links to a very serious current event and recent experience tells me I need to be very careful discussing sensitive topics, so I'm going to try and handle this tactfully and I'll say now that I am asking the forthcoming question in a spirit of moral philosophical curiosity and am not trying to make a point or antagonise anyone, but an issue I have thought about on occasion in the past has really come to the fore in today's news, and that is something like this:

Is it okay to issue sanctions against, boycott, or generally apply special negative treatment towards individual people (and perhaps individual businesses, but I'm mostly interested in people) based on their nationality?

Obviously the prompt for this has been the sanctioning of several high-profile Russian individuals (and businesses) by the UK today. I also heard recently, through football news, that Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich might be specifically targeted with sanctions.

Now to be clear I'm coming at this from a position of complete ignorance. I have basically zero understanding of economics and international diplomacy. I'm not attempting to take a stance on this. I'm asking if any of you who are more educated on the topic than I am have any thoughts on it that might improve my understanding.

I can see why there might be strategic advantages to sanctioning large Russian companies (such as Gazprom*) as large business exert significant influences over the governments of their countries, so by turning up the heat on those companies those companies might in turn lobby their government to cease the behaviour that is agitating the sanction-making country. And perhaps the same is true for sufficiently rich individuals like Russian oligarchs.

But my initial gut reaction is that to cause negative ramifiations by applying unequal treatment to someone based purely on their nationality is... well, frankly racist. I've seen it done before with Israel where groups that are opposed to the state of Israel boycott or demand the deplatforming of individual Israeli citizens, even in cases where the individual concerned has never made any public comments supporting the state of Israel or its behaviour. And now I see similar stuff with Russians.

So what's the deal? Is this a bit racist or is it not at all? And if it is racist, can it still be justified anyway because of the strategic advantage it gives?

*I did an internet search for Gazprom after writing it here and learned that it's actually majority state-owned, so the sanctions certainly make a lot more sense and maybe Gazprom is a poor example. But I have read that many Russian companies will be targeted and if they are all partly state-owned that wasn't specified.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Obviously random Russians should not be sanctioned for this attack. But when they talk about "Oligarchs" it brings to mind shady Russians with unexplained levels of wealth and with links to the Russian state. I'm not sure how these people will be selected for sanction, but it's at least possible that there is some justification in some of these cases. Also, being rich people, it's unlikely they will suffer too much from UK-based sanctions in any case. But I don't know much about this.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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No Russian or Belarusian motorsports athletes allowed to compete in UK.

I get why Mazepin is an issue given his father's ties, and I certainly won't shed a tear at Mazepin being absent at the British GP, but this really does seem to be applied entirely on the basis of nationality. Isn't this a bit racist? Especially given it seems most Russian people are against the invasion, why should a Russian athlete be barred from a competition because they happen to have been born in a country currently run by a madman they didn't vote for?
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Callum Todd wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:00 pm No Russian or Belarusian motorsports athletes allowed to compete in UK.

I get why Mazepin is an issue given his father's ties, and I certainly won't shed a tear at Mazepin being absent at the British GP, but this really does seem to be applied entirely on the basis of nationality. Isn't this a bit racist? Especially given it seems most Russian people are against the invasion, why should a Russian athlete be barred from a competition because they happen to have been born in a country currently run by a madman they didn't vote for?
I agree that it's not right to ban Russians from competing. In the winter Paralympics, they can compete but as "neutral" athletes, which seems OK. So Russia are doubly banned from the Olympics/Paralympics now. Once for drugs, where Russian athletes were said to be competing under the "Russian Olympic Committee" and now Russia is removed completely.

However, there is the separate issue that in the article you linked to, it said that Haas are expected to sever links with Mazepin (meaning he won't race at all). I think this is not necessarily as bad as it seems. Mazepin isn't really in F1 on merit; he's there because of the money he brings in through his father's company, and his father is supposedly close to Putin. So with that money supply cut off, Mazepin losing his drive would become a purely business decision.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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Yep, it makes total sense for the Mazepins to be specifically targeted given their connections. And I believe the FIA have done the same as the Olympics, so as things stand Nikita Mazepin can still drive under a neutral flag for Haas in F1 this season, just not in Britain. It's only Motorsport UK that have put the blanket ban on all competitors of Russian or Belarusian nationality.

(just in case it needs saying, my questioning of sanctions for Russian individuals is absolutely not a defence or endorsement of Russia or its behaviour of late! I'm as appalled as most, and probably more so than some. I'm just worried by the tendency to target individuals based on their nationality, even when they are probably just as opposed to Putin as we are).
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Marc Meakin »

Bullying gone mad.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/disability-sport/60599739
Russian and Belarusian individuals banned from Winter Paralynpics.
By all means freeze assets of oligaths and ban Russia from hosting any sporting or cultural events but to ban individuals from competing in a Paralynpics is over the top
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Paul Anderson »

Na, it's been tried before having them there as neutrals...folk still see it as Russian victories....they're laying siege to Ukrainian cities indiscriminately...this is what they deserve and will force Putin's hand. Sport is propaganda, regardless of how deserving the individual athletes are
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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Paul Anderson wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:22 pm ..this is what they deserve and will force Putin's hand.
I think it's a bit harsh to say that special negative treatment is deserved by ordinary Russian citizens who have no involvement with and bear no love for Putin, his government, or his war. But the forcing Putin's hand bit is probably the key. I suppose the folks blanket banning Russian and Belarusian nationals are away that they are punishing individuals for crimes of which they personally are not guilty, but justify that because the potential impact of this punishment outweighs the injustice of the punishment itself. Effectively 'the ends justify the means'.

The article I linked to above about the Russian/Belarusian motorsports ban in the UK containts a quote from the chair of Motorsport UK: "It is our duty to use whatever influence and leverage we might have to bring this wholly unjustified invasion of Ukraine to a halt." That sums it up and seems fair enough to me. I still think it's mightily unfair on the individuals affected (again I'm just talking about those with no links to Putin here, not the likes of Abramovich and Mazepin) but I suppose that depriving a handful of (Russian) individuals of the privilege of being allowed to compete in sporting competitions is much preferable to depriving thousands (of Ukrainians) of safety in their own homes.

I just feel uncomfortable about this situation spawning a racist attitude towards people of Russian heritage, purely based on their nationality. Aside from being just plain wrong in isolation, it also risks further inflaming tensions between Russian people and the rest of the world. It's widely acknowledged now that when British folks still bear resentment towards German individuals because of the World Wars, that's racist (see coverage of chanting at England vs Germany football matches for an example). Hopefully we won't repeat that mistake and become racist towards people of Russian descent even when they are even more anti-Putin and anti-war than we are.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Paul Anderson »

Yeah, it's a tricky one, of course those Russian paralympians are fully deserving of their place, but someone mentioned the atmosphere in the athletes village...they simply wouldn't have been welcome, short of publicly calling out Russian aggression, which would never happen. All Russians need to be isolated temporarily until this is resolved one way or the other. I feel that if Putin was removed, sanctions on the Russian public should be immediately reversed.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Back to the Mazepin thing (because we know deep down that everything is about him), it says in this article that he'd have to sign a document forbidding him to support the invasion if he's to continue in F1. Seems a bit strange. Just him? It also says:
The FIA has made not backing the invasion, either directly or indirectly, a requirement to race.

Drivers will also have to sign a declaration adhering to the FIA's principles of peace and neutrality.
But is that the same thing? Is Mazepin being singled out? It seems bizarre if so.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:44 pm Back to the Mazepin thing (because we know deep down that everything is about him), it says in this article that he'd have to sign a document forbidding him to support the invasion if he's to continue in F1. Seems a bit strange. Just him? It also says:
The FIA has made not backing the invasion, either directly or indirectly, a requirement to race.

Drivers will also have to sign a declaration adhering to the FIA's principles of peace and neutrality.
But is that the same thing? Is Mazepin being singled out? It seems bizarre if so.
I think the article you linked is referring to this statement from the FIA, which says "all drivers, individual competitors, and officials from Russia or Belarus". So Mazepin isn't really being single out, although he's obviously the only current F1 driver subject to these rules, and is certainly the most high profile of any individuals affected. I do think it's a bit odd that only Russian/Belarusian folks have to condemn it though. If, say, a British driver came out and said they support the invasion of Ukraine, would they be allowed to race because they're not Russian so the rules don't apply to them? Odd.

As for your comment about everything being about him, certainly it seems most of the actions from official motorsports bodies such as the FIA and Motorsport UK are basically intended to specifically target him, although there will be other lower-profile individuals caught up as collateral damage. Certainly my point about avoiding a racist anti-Russian people sentiment is not at all about Mazepin, if anything he is exempt from my point as there are perfectly rational reasons to associate him with Putin, regardless of his nationality.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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By being singled out, I didn't mean as an individual but as the only Russian driver. My point was meant to be, as you say, everyone should be against the war and there seems to be an implication that as a Russian he's more likely to support the war and I think that's dangerous and divisive. I mean, statistically it might be true in some sense (although probably mainly among Russians who don't operate internationally and just watch state TV), but it's far better and more diplomatic to just get everyone to sign it if you want anyone to.

And the thing about everything being about him, that was really just a joke as Mazepin is a fairly irrelevant figure in reality in the general scheme of things. Nothing to do with the actual war, and an F1 driver widely regarded as the worst on the grid and not there on merit.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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Yeah Mazepin is shite.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Callum Todd wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:46 am Yeah Mazepin is shite.
He came 21st out of 20 in the world championship last year.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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It would have been interesting to see the outcome if one of the good drivers had been Russian.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Do you think the level of competition matters? E.g. if we had Russian players on Apterous or Zoomdown, would throwing them out be worse than it is in professional sporting events?
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:57 pm Do you think the level of competition matters? E.g. if we had Russian players on Apterous or Zoomdown, would throwing them out be worse than it is in professional sporting events?
I think so yes, although at first attempt I struggle to find a logically coherent justification for that feeling. That was why I felt uncomfortable about the Motorsport UK ruling: not because of Mazepin (fuck him) but because, if I've understoof it correctly, it seems to apply to all levels of motorsport in the UK. It's perfectly possible that somebody (or several somebodies) at grassroots level could be affected by it.

Not sure about the apterous/ZoomDown comparison because I don't really see them as competitive arenas, more social. Certainly if anyone was kicked off/banned from apterous or ZoomDown today because they happened to be Russian, I wouldn't feel comfortable continuing to play/watch something that was so blatantly discriminatory.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Callum Todd »

No Russian or Belarusian tennis players to be allowed to compete at Wimbledon.

I don't know much at all about tennis but at first glance it seems this is much more impactful at elite level than the motorsports stuff was as apparently some of the top players in both the men's and the women's divisions are Russian.

Still yet to hear a convincing argument that punishing individuals based solely on their nationality isn't racist. And the quote about "collective guilt" in the above article makes me extremely uncomfortable.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I suppose the argument would be some sort of utilitarian one based on the "greater good" - that ostracising Russians and Belarusians and the general global condemnation might make Putin see sense or something. I'm not sure how realistic that is though.

It's not what I would do.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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"Racist" isn't the right word, but I agree with your wider point.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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Mark Deeks wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:25 pm "Racist" isn't the right word, but I agree with your wider point.
You're probably right. Sorry, I should have been more careful using such a strong word. Not sure what the right word would be. Nationalityist?
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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Yeah, me neither.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Paul Anderson »

I guess it's like having Nazis compete at events post 1939....the outcry would be comparable, despite the unfairness. Sport is an alternative to war, but the Russians have chosen war
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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Paul Anderson wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:06 pm I guess it's like having Nazis compete at events post 1939....the outcry would be comparable, despite the unfairness. Sport is an alternative to war, but the Russians have chosen war
Nazis?! Not at all, it'd be like having ordinary Germans compete at events. This is exactly the attitude I fear these measures are fuelling: assuming an individual has sympathy with the actions and ideologies of their state's government purely because that is their nationality, even though their government wasn't (fairly) democratically elected. "the Russians have chosen war"? No. Putin (the dictator) has chosen war, but "the Russians" are bearing the cost of the sanctions.

Again another disclaimer in case it's needed: none of this is pro-Russian or anti-sanctions. The entire point I'm trying to make is that there must be a way to oppose and punish Putin without throwing ordinary Russians under the bus and demonising people based purely on their nationality.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Some discussion on the BBC.

In the four-minute embedded interview, the Ukrainian player Elina Svitolina says that Russian players should be allowed to play at Wimbledon if they condemn the war. Russian player Andrey Rublev considers the ban discrimination - he's the guy who signed a camera lens with "No war please" a while ago. Novak Djokovic and Martina Navratilova are also both against the ban. (That's the long and short of it - there's no need to click on my link now.)

Edit - Another similar article with Billie Jean King getting in on the action (against the ban).
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Paul Worsley »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:46 pm Elina Svitolina says that Russian players should be allowed to play at Wimbledon if they condemn the war.
This is the worst solution of all, as Russian players are being asked to put their safety at risk in order to play. Also, it's quite possible that someone would condemn the war, but wouldn't want to say so in public, for legitimate reasons, and their silence could be interpreted as support.

Personally, I would support a ban on team sports, but not necessarily individual sports like tennis, F1 etc
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I think it seems a bit convenient that countries are sanctioning Russia but carry on using their oil and gas because they don't want to inconvenience themselves. Surely if the point is to put as much pressure on Russia as possible, they have to do stop using their produce full stop, not just when it suits them.

They can't use the argument that it would inconvenience their own citizens too much, because they wouldn't hesitate to do the same to Russian citizens who are just collateral damage in all this. Perfect example of the thread title.

Obviously political/selfish reasons etc., but there's no moral case for punishing Russians over others.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

Post by Gavin Chipper »

No ranking points for Wimbledon. The ATP and WTA (men's and women's governing bodies) are sanctioning Wimbledon for banning Russians. Interesting.
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Re: Sanctioning individuals based on nationality

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Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:24 pm No ranking points for Wimbledon. The ATP and WTA (men's and women's governing bodies) are sanctioning Wimbledon for banning Russians. Interesting.
and the Russians are playing at the French Open!
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