Re: Veganism Discussion
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:45 pm
Here's another interesting story
A group for contestants and lovers of the Channel 4 game show 'Countdown'.
http://www.c4countdown.co.uk/
The devil's really struggling for peril this week.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:45 pm Just to play Devils avacado.
I wondo how many vegans are going to Glastonbury knowing full well this is the site of a working dairy farm?
Unless there's something more to the link between the festival and the dairy farm (e.g. If the explicit purpose of the festival is to fund the dairy farm, which seems unlikely), I don't think there's anything in this. Similar to the argument of how vegans shouldn't buy the plant-based burgers from McDonalds/Burger King because by giving those companies business they're funding their meat trade. That argument doesn't hold water for me.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:45 pm I wondo how many vegans are going to Glastonbury knowing full well this is the site of a working dairy farm?
Erm, he's played there at least three times.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:49 pm I guess only radical vegans would boycott Glasto like Morrissey
Yeah, not as weird as drinking cow's milk though, right? No sane adult actually drinks milk - like as a drink - anyway. It's horrible. In my glacial move towards veganism, I've long since moved away from putting it on cereal as well. I use Oatly for that. But obviously I still eat stuff that has milk in - mainly cheese to be honest, but I don't eat as much of that as I used to.
Is it weird for adults to eat cheese made from human breast milk?Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:00 pmYeah, not as weird as drinking cow's milk though, right? No sane adult actually drinks milk - like as a drink - anyway. It's horrible. In my glacial move towards veganism, I've long since moved away from putting it on cereal as well. I use Oatly for that. But obviously I still eat stuff that has milk in - mainly cheese to be honest, but I don't eat as much of that as I used to.
Eating cheese made from human milk and from cow's milk are both weird in their own ways.Callum Todd wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 3:36 pmIs it weird for adults to eat cheese made from human breast milk?Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:00 pmYeah, not as weird as drinking cow's milk though, right? No sane adult actually drinks milk - like as a drink - anyway. It's horrible. In my glacial move towards veganism, I've long since moved away from putting it on cereal as well. I use Oatly for that. But obviously I still eat stuff that has milk in - mainly cheese to be honest, but I don't eat as much of that as I used to.
Indeed. Imagine eating ice cream made from someone's milk; how disgusting! Unless of course that someone was imprisoned, tortured, and killed. Then it's fine, and delicious!
I think a guy in the video tried to make a similar point, by comparing eating cows vs. cannibalism. With milk though I'm not so sure as it absolutely is natural and totally unweird for humans to drink human milk... as babies. The only weird thing about it as adults is the age. Whereas with humans drinking other mammals' milk it's weird at any age.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:58 am I think there is something to be said though about the "weirdness" coming from it being your own species. And is it any weirder to drink cow's milk than to eat their meat?
Lots, but not most! I think a majority of humans today are lactose intolerant in adulthood.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:58 am ... you could say that humans (lots of them anyway) evolved to drink cow's milk.
Well not entirely - many of the practices that contribute to animal suffering are caused by intense farming practices - if everyone were to reduce their consumption, then the welfare of farm animals would be improved - hard to see that as a bad thing.Callum Todd wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:11 am Yeah, hence my posting it in this thread rather than the one more focused on animal abuse.
I think environmentalism rather than animal welfare as a reason for eschewing animal problems* is more "socially acceptable" to talk about partially because environmentalism is already a topic that people are familiar with (to varying degrees): anyone who has more than one colour of wheelie bin is aware of the concept of recycling, anyone who has driven a car in certain cities or on certain stretches of motorway will be aware of emission-reducing traffic schemes, anyone who shops at a supermarket will have noticed the gradual decline of single-use plastic shopping bags in favour of reusable 'bags for life', etc. Whereas (tragically) very few people ever have a serious conversation about animal welfare, particularly about the welfare of animals other than humans, cats, and dogs.
Also it's easier to respond to the problems with animal farming with a 'reduceitarian' approach when framed in terms of environmentalism, whereas animal welfare is more of a black and white case that puts more pressure on people to completely eliminate their problematic habits rather than merely reducing them. 'I have reduced my emissions' sounds a lot nicer than 'I have reduced the financial support I routinely offer to the imprisonment, torture, and killing of sentient beings.'
Certainly less intensive farming would reduce suffering, and yes that reduction is hard to see as a bad thing. But it's hard to seriously envision a realistic system of profit-driven animal farming that doesn't cause suffering to the animals farmed, even if on a much smaller scale. So I think it would be more accurate to say 'the suffering of farm animals would be reduced' rather than the 'welfare of farm animals would be improved' as really what we are talking about here is decreasing the effect of a negative thing, not increasing the effect of a positive thing.
If we take cow slaughter as a given than yeah I suppose it's wasteful to dispose of the leftover biomatter, potentially in an environmentally harmful way. But I don't think we should take it as a given, it should be stopped. And using it as the basis of yet another product trade will be an obstacle to stopping it, so let's not. Also you could make the same utilitarian argument for the skins of any other deceased animals; shouldn't we skin the corpses of deceased cats, dogs, and humans too so we can make footballs and sofas out of them? Surely not as people would find that distasteful. Well maybe they should find it distasteful to sit on or kick about the mistreated remains of a cow as well.
This just seems stupid. They do do vegan options though don't they? So why not make this thing vegan? Half measures like this won't get you anywhere. I'm pretty sure that Burger King did something similarly stupid a few years ago and it didn't end well. Yeah, it was this.The McPlant wasn’t truly vegan or vegetarian. It was a (delicious-looking, sorry) Beyond Meat patty topped with melty American cheese and sweet mayonnaise that’s sandwiched between a preservative-packed bun. Though the burgers themselves are vegan, they’re cooked on the same grill as McDonald’s regular beef patties. Some flexitarian customers might not mind a bit of beef juice mingling with their alternative pea protein, but it’s hardly compelling enough to attract the diehards.
Yeah I think that's somewhat inaccurateGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:14 pmThis just seems stupid. They do do vegan options though don't they? So why not make this thing vegan? Half measures like this won't get you anywhere. I'm pretty sure that Burger King did something similarly stupid a few years ago and it didn't end well. Yeah, it was this.The McPlant wasn’t truly vegan or vegetarian. It was a (delicious-looking, sorry) Beyond Meat patty topped with melty American cheese and sweet mayonnaise that’s sandwiched between a preservative-packed bun. Though the burgers themselves are vegan, they’re cooked on the same grill as McDonald’s regular beef patties. Some flexitarian customers might not mind a bit of beef juice mingling with their alternative pea protein, but it’s hardly compelling enough to attract the diehards.
The "melty American cheese and sweet mayonnaise" are (were) both vegan.How will you control the risk of cross-contamination with meat?
McPlant is cooked separately from other McDonald’s burgers and sandwiches, using dedicated equipment to ensure it doesn’t come into contact with meat products.
How is the plant based patty cooked in restaurant?
The plant based patty is cooked in an oven, not on the grill. While meat products are also cooked in the oven, this will not be at the same time or using the same equipment as McPlant. McPlant uses specific equipment, including oven trays and tongs, so it will not come into contact with meat products, and the ovens and equipment are cleaned regularly.
yeah, they weren't.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:39 pm Also what self respecting vegan is going to buy a product cooked on the same grill as meat.
Also, a quick Google found a few articles that said the US test has ended - e.g. this one. I wonder if they gave been prepared differently in different places, and whether it will continue in the UK. Though I'm pretty sure it could have worked in many places in America anyway.While the McPlant is apparently thriving in international markets like the U.K. and Austria, American customers were not about it, with some rural stores selling as few as three burgers a day.
It's still here in my local McDonalds in South Norfolk as of Friday.
You could instead grab a McPlant while they're still available.
I hope it's not buttered!
What percentage of the food you eat (as a vegan) do you think is imported?, it significantly higher than that of a non-vegan.Callum Todd wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:23 am Just because someone mentioned environmental impact of transporting food elsewhere: Follow the Food
What this means is that if you want to reduce the carbon footprint of your diet, you should focus on buying foods with lower overall carbon footprints rather than those that don’t have to travel far. This basically means eating less meat and dairy.
That's a pretty poor calculator. You have to select exactly one from each category, regardless of whether you consume zero or more than one. It would be much better if you could just put in exactly what you want to put in.Callum Todd wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:23 am Just because someone mentioned environmental impact of transporting food elsewhere: Follow the Food
It's not great for working out emissions from your own personal diet but if you play around with it a bit it presents the data comparing different foods very well.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:16 pmThat's a pretty poor calculator. You have to select exactly one from each category, regardless of whether you consume zero or more than one. It would be much better if you could just put in exactly what you want to put in.Callum Todd wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:23 am Just because someone mentioned environmental impact of transporting food elsewhere: Follow the Food
Yeah one massive question that's neglected when people talk about 'vegan food (Carrots? Potatoes? Bread? Rice? Mangoes?)' travelling more miles than our good ol' British Beef is not just how far did your food travel but how far did your food's food travel? In the case of most animals reared for their flesh in the UK, they eat a lot of soy (quite a bit more than a human would need to eat directly to gain equal nutritional intake to eating the resulting animal flesh) often from South America.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:01 pm This recent article from New Scientist says that the emissions involved in growing your food is far more important than the food miles. Here's a brief excerpt:
What this means is that if you want to reduce the carbon footprint of your diet, you should focus on buying foods with lower overall carbon footprints rather than those that don’t have to travel far. This basically means eating less meat and dairy.
I've seen lab grown meat talked about for a while. It's a matter of bringing the cost down so that's it's reasonable for people to actually buy.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:29 pm A game changer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-64381704
Hopefully mass production will bring the cost down.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:23 pmI've seen lab grown meat talked about for a while. It's a matter of bringing the cost down so that's it's reasonable for people to actually buy.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:29 pm A game changer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-64381704
I thought the joke was that everything tastes like chicken, being the most boring, bland and generic of the meats.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:08 pmHopefully mass production will bring the cost down.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:23 pmI've seen lab grown meat talked about for a while. It's a matter of bringing the cost down so that's it's reasonable for people to actually buy.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:29 pm A game changer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-64381704
If it tastes as good as chicken then people will buy it
Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:11 pmI thought the joke was that everything tastes like chicken, being the most boring, bland and generic of the meats.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:08 pmHopefully mass production will bring the cost down.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:23 pm
I've seen lab grown meat talked about for a while. It's a matter of bringing the cost down so that's it's reasonable for people to actually buy.
If it tastes as good as chicken then people will buy it
Strange platform to discuss veganismCallum Todd wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:38 pm Graeme Souness mentioning ethics as the main reason for not eating meat again on Sky Sports during their eco focus. Go on Graeme! Unlikely champion of ethical veganism on sports TV!
c4c?
I'll always remember Martin McGuinness on Question Time in 2004 or 2005 saying he'd recently seen a video where a man picked a Mars Bar up off the ground and then had a hook go through his tongue when he tried to eat it, and claiming that since then, he'd felt too guilty to pursue his pastime of fishing.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:55 am An interesting poster suggesting eating fish is the same as eating cats.
I guess it's a step in the right directionCallum Todd wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 8:02 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66238584
Headline:Callum Todd wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 8:02 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66238584
So that everyone reading through the thread hasn't got to remind themselves every time!Eating less meat 'like taking 8m cars off road'