The Jimmy Carr Holocaust Joke

[Gavin Chipper]

Might as well make this topic. As you probably know, Jimmy Carr made a joke about Gypsies being murdered in the holocaust. Here is the joke with some of the stuff afterwards if you want to see it.

What do you think? Is he a Bad Man?

[Marc Meakin]

Calling Jimmy Carr edgy as a stand up is an understatement.
This show was called his dark material.
He spends most of the show saying that various jokes might get him cancelled.
He has written books on laughter and sometimes we (or some of us) laugh in shock at what has been said.

This has been on Netflix for 6 weeks and didn't get advertised that much.
Back in the day we had someone called Mary Whitehouse (Google her) who used to pre watch shows on TV and at the theatre to check on if any content was inappropriate.
Sometimes she had a point but usually she only raised awareness to stuff a lot of people were not bothered about but once she had said it had swearing, or nudity etc people were keen to see what the fuss was about.

The twitterersphere is a global Mary Whitehouse with knobs on.

Btw no Jehovahs Witnesses have come forward to complain about the Holocaust Joke about them ( much funnier Btw.)
Oh and he had a go at gingers too

Going back to Mary Whitehouse, her mandate was to warn us so we didn't accidentally find inappropriate material on terrestrial TV.
But accidentally watching a Jimmy Carr stand up performance is unlikely and would garner less sympathy from me than if a known peanut allergy sufferer was chomping a Mr Tom's bar

[Mark James]

I don't like Jimmy Carr. He should be allowed to say what he wants. People who say they want him or that joke in particular or any other joke removed from netflix should be allowed to say that. Netflix should be allowed to remove any content or leave it. It's up to them. Once the government is not involved and there's no sort of legislation to force them to do anything it shouldn't be an issue.

[Gavin Chipper]

I think that how offensive a joke is and whether it's socially acceptable depends a lot on context. I would go as far as to say that there isn't a single joke where there is no context in which it would be acceptable, even if it's just saying it to yourself in a mirror. But also, if you and a friend decide between yourselves to each come up with the most offensive joke you possibly can and just tell each other, then that's fine. But if you start telling this joke to other people, don't be surprised if you get some backlash.

Well, that's very hypothetical really because Jimmy Carr's joke was made to a wider audience and is available for all to hear. But in terms of the context, one thing I would ask is who is the joke aimed at and who is laughing at it. If, for example, someone is making a lot of jokes that could be seen as racist, it's probably worth looking at who their regular audience is. If they all seem a bit racist themselves, then that comedian is not likely to be a force for good in the world. Intent is important, but so is perceived intent. But in any case I don't think the "racist audience clause" applies in Jimmy Carr's case.

But his general audience doesn't let him off the hook for any joke he might then tell. If you look at the joke itself, he justifies it by saying that he's educating people that it wasn't just Jews that were murdered in the Holocaust. I think that's actually quite a good point, because for some reason it is always just mentioned as a Jewish thing when it wasn't. However, the thing about Gypsies is that they are a group of people who a lot of people do seem to think that it's socially acceptable to make disparaging remarks about. So I do think they weren't the best target because it can potentially add to that, even if it is just from people missing the point.

He then continues into a bit of a routine about Jehovah's Witnesses. And a friend of mine suggested that it might have been better to skip the Gypsies thing entirely and made it about Jehovah's Witnesses from the start, and just seamlessly carried on into the rest of the routine. Though maybe the joke wouldn't have had quite the same punch. I don't know. But the point is that Jehovah's Witnesses aren't marginalised in the same way as Gypsies. People take the piss out of them all the time but it's not quite the same thing. Or he could have used disabled people because then it would have more clearly been a ridiculous joke. But again maybe he would have felt it wouldn't have had the same punch. I'm not sure though. I think it would have had quite a punch. But then, why not make the Jews themselves the butt of the joke if you wanted to go for maximum edgy? Then everyone would have been on his side...

But anyway, in conclusion I'd say Gypsies probably weren't the best target, though I'm not one to take a binary view about comedians and whether they're goodies or baddies. Overall, it hasn't really changed my mind about the tax-dodging piece of shit. I still quite like him. And I do think there has been quite an overreaction to this.

[Mark James]

I think the one group that nazis killed that Jimmy could have picked that wouldn’t have stirred controversy would be communists.

[Mark Deeks]

It's lazy shock humour that he should stand behind. After all, it provoked (after a delay) the exact reaction that he joked it would have. Walking it back now would somehow be even lamer.

It's not my thing, and it is of course a privileged man scoring cheap laughs off an oppressed class, which, eh, if you want to be well known for that, comes with consequences you have to live with. The wider point of free speech broadly applies, though. As does the slippery slope thing. Etc etc etc.

It is a bit of a shame that a clever - and, by the account of everyone except HMRC, very nice and generous - man should use his talents in this way. He has far more intelligence than he applies to himself. But eh, if that's what he wants his legacy to be, he's free to make that bad choice. There is (or should be) a clear delineation between what people think is funny to say and what they actually think, and I'm sure we've all made or enjoyed edgelord jokes at times. Bit freaking strange to be a complete fame-whore who takes every bit of TV work going and then still do things like that, though.

Also, I am 97% convinced that when Stephen Fry said that one QI contestant used to ask for the questions in advance, that it was Carr.

[Marc Meakin]

David Baddiel has said recently on twitter that you can tell a Holocaust joke if the subject matter is not the victim.

[Mark James]

You can tell any joke. And people can tell you whether they like it or not.

[Marc Meakin]

You can tell any joke. And people can tell you whether they like it or not.

If only the 2020s was that simple not liking a joke is never far enough on the twittersphere

[Fiona T]

Indefensible IMO.

[Gavin Chipper]

Further discussion on the BBC.

[Ben Wilson]

A comedian on 'edgy' and 'challenging' comedians a while ago. Not directly related to the matter in hand but given some comments from some of Carr's supporters I feel it's relevant anyway.

[Gavin Chipper]

The other thing that's worth mentioning is that it isn't a particularly clever or funny joke. Anyone could come up with it. But people in the audience laughed because it was Jimmy Carr with his comedy persona etc.

If none of this had happened and you told this joke down the pub, people would just stare at you.

[Marc Meakin]

The other thing that's worth mentioning is that it isn't a particularly clever or funny joke. Anyone could come up with it. But people in the audience laughed because it was Jimmy Carr with his comedy persona etc.

If none of this had happened and you told this joke down the pub, people would just stare at you.

I still maintain that people laughed out of shock rather than it being Jimmy Carr.
Humour is so subjective
Btw one of my favourite comedians is Jerry Sadowitz
I met him on a bus once and he was a lovely guy but I would be scared to meet him on stage

[Mark James]

Yeah, people laugh because it's a comedy show. I don't think it's because they all secretly believe it was fine to kill gypsies in the holocaust. It's how jokes work. You have the set up and then a surprise. It's more the fact that a surprise happened than the content of the surprise that causes laughter. And people will definitely laugh at things at a comedy club that they wouldn't laugh at anywhere else because there's a certain expectation of the crowd.

Now, I have no problem with people who don't find it funny and I have no problem with them not liking Jimmy Carr because of it. They can call him out and even call for netflix to remove the joke and netflix can even remove the joke because of the calls. I don't think it's much use to do that and can a bad look politically but whatever. And I have no problem with people calling out the people who are calling out. The problem I have is when people start talking about legislation. The government cannot and should not be involved unless actual threats are being made.

I get the argument that, even if Carr isn't a real nazi, some jokes can be indistinguishable from things actual nazis say or believe and there are way more nazis and white supremacist extremists than people are willing to recognise, and they will use freedom of speech rules to hoodwink liberals and hide heinous beliefs through moderated language as it is, that's why I have no problem with calling it out and highlighting it. But if the government gets involved that's when the real slippery slope starts.

What gets me though is how the whole wider "cancel culture" thing gets framed as a product of the left. Which government are calling for the legislation? No doubt there are annoying wokescolds on the left but honestly their power is so minimal and they are so often easily ignorable. Like people are being annoying on twitter or tumbler?

This is great video on the media representation of "cancel culture".

https://youtu.be/RkVYvp_CumI

It's definitely more American centric and of course they have the advantage of the First Amendment that the UK doesn't have which is why I think the legislation talk surrounding the Jimmy Carr issue is the biggest bad sign but ultimately I think we live in the time when we have had the freeest speech.

[Christy Cooper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUyUV8_bbhg

[Marc Meakin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUyUV8_bbhg

Pretty much what I think in a nutshell (pardoning the apt pun)