Spoilers for Friday 4th February (Series 85, Prelim 25)
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:46 pm
Dan game 7 now
A group for contestants and lovers of the Channel 4 game show 'Countdown'.
http://www.c4countdown.co.uk/
Should it be allowed? I see it is on Apterous. But is this on the basis of it being the past participle of OUTLIE? In the free version, the definition is "To outdo in lying", which seems more likely to be fibbing than lying down, although it's not specified. I think this has come up before.
This disallowal makes it invalid 3-1 https://wiki.apterous.org/index.php?tit ... fulltext=1. When it was allowed in 2019, it caused head-scratching here viewtopic.php?p=187638&hilit=OUTLAIN#p187638 and was ticketed for addition on Apterous here https://www.apterous.org/ticket_view.ph ... 857#p63757.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:32 pmShould it be allowed? I see it is on Apterous. But is this on the basis of it being the past participle of OUTLIE? In the free version, the definition is "To outdo in lying", which seems more likely to be fibbing than lying down, although it's not specified. I think this has come up before.
While I think most people would agree with the general principle, the problem with OUTLIE is that it's not specified which LIE is being used. But looking at Fiona's post here:Philip A wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:06 pm The rule I would set out here to consistently allow OUTLAIN is:
If a verb with a prefix has no specified subentries, it should be assumed to take the same inflections as the root verb.
...
On that basis, I am of the opinion that it is correct to allow OUTLIES, OUTLIED, OUTLAIN and OUTLYING.
It seems that it should be interpreted as outfib so in that sense of LIE, OUTLAIN would not be allowed.Fiona T wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 7:35 pm
Was wondering about this today.
Both free and premium give the following source
"Mid 17th century; earliest use found in John Donne (1572–1631), poet and Church of England clergyman. From out- + lie."
googling finds this
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uJj ... ie&f=false
But pedant's motley tongue, soldier's bombast,
Mountebank's drug-tongue, nor the terms of law
Are strong enough preparatives to draw
Me to bear this; yet I must be content
With his tongue. In his tongue, called compliment,
In which he can win windows and pay scores,
Make men speak treason, cozen subtlest whores,
Out-flatter favourites, or outlie either
Jovius or Surius or both together,
He names me, and comes to me; I whisper, God!
Hmm, not sure what he's doing with his tongue
But I think he's talking about telling lies.
IMO outlain is nonsense and has been disallowed more times (lots) than allowed (once).
Language has evolved long since the 17th century so I think going by the origin here would be a huge stretch.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:15 pmWhile I think most people would agree with the general principle, the problem with OUTLIE is that it's not specified which LIE is being used. But looking at Fiona's post here:Philip A wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:06 pm The rule I would set out here to consistently allow OUTLAIN is:
If a verb with a prefix has no specified subentries, it should be assumed to take the same inflections as the root verb.
...
On that basis, I am of the opinion that it is correct to allow OUTLIES, OUTLIED, OUTLAIN and OUTLYING.
It seems that it should be interpreted as outfib so in that sense of LIE, OUTLAIN would not be allowed.Fiona T wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 7:35 pm
Was wondering about this today.
Both free and premium give the following source
"Mid 17th century; earliest use found in John Donne (1572–1631), poet and Church of England clergyman. From out- + lie."
googling finds this
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uJj ... ie&f=false
But pedant's motley tongue, soldier's bombast,
Mountebank's drug-tongue, nor the terms of law
Are strong enough preparatives to draw
Me to bear this; yet I must be content
With his tongue. In his tongue, called compliment,
In which he can win windows and pay scores,
Make men speak treason, cozen subtlest whores,
Out-flatter favourites, or outlie either
Jovius or Surius or both together,
He names me, and comes to me; I whisper, God!
Hmm, not sure what he's doing with his tongue
But I think he's talking about telling lies.
IMO outlain is nonsense and has been disallowed more times (lots) than allowed (once).
Fiona T wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 7:43 pm Suzie's comment at the time:
"Scratching my head over outlain, Maggie, but if something lies beyond or on the outside of something geographically, that is to outlie obviously and the sensible past participle would be outlain."
However, neither version of dictionary gives the lie beyond definition - both say "outdo in lying".
Likewise. I'm sorry but I do believe that Susie is the one to make the most valid opinion here.Fiona T wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:26 pm Also -
Fiona T wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 7:43 pm Suzie's comment at the time:
"Scratching my head over outlain, Maggie, but if something lies beyond or on the outside of something geographically, that is to outlie obviously and the sensible past participle would be outlain."
However, neither version of dictionary gives the lie beyond definition - both say "outdo in lying".
Basically on the occasion it was allowed, Susie allowed it based on a made up (but logical) definition that was not in either dictionary. IMO it should not be allowed.
I definitely agree with this. The problem is when Susie makes a different adjudication for the same word in different episodes. Which one to believe? But as a rule of thumb, I'd suggest that whatever has been adjudicated in the most recent episode where the word has occurred should be the current ruling (perhaps unless there is a very clear error).Ronan M Higginson wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:32 pm
Likewise. I'm sorry but I do believe that Susie is the one to make the most valid opinion here.
And MILEAGESCarl Harrison wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:31 pmI definitely agree with this. The problem is when Susie makes a different adjudication for the same word in different episodes. Which one to believe? But as a rule of thumb, I'd suggest that whatever has been adjudicated in the most recent episode where the word has occurred should be the current ruling (perhaps unless there is a very clear error).Ronan M Higginson wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:32 pm
Likewise. I'm sorry but I do believe that Susie is the one to make the most valid opinion here.
So for now, I think OUTLAIN needs to be removed from the list of valid words on Apto.