c4countdown

Just when will Boris go?
Surely he can't last until the next election
I'm hoping he is gone by Easter

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:32 am Just when will Boris go?
Surely he can't last until the next election
I'm hoping he is gone by Easter

It wouldn't necessarily improve anything - you'd only get another one of the cronies in charge. It's actually probably better if he stays really, since the longer he is in that position, the less chance they have of winning the next election.

I think he might strike a deal with his party that he can hang on for a bit (couple of months, dunno) and then resign as PM, saying that it's because of his young family and wanting to devote more time to them, and definitely not because he's a walking disaster area. I'd be incredibly surprised if he was leader at the next election.

As a pig-headed man, the person he should be most afraid of is David Cameron.

17 days to think up that joke, how do you think it went?

Brilliantly.

Mark Deeks wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:08 pm 17 days to think up that joke, how do you think it went?

Not as long as it took the media to get offended by an out of context joke in a Jimmy Carr comedy special (around 6 weeks)

Jonathan Pie on the case.

Very good.
Liked the Hogwarts for Wankers bit but leave the beloved scotch egg alone

I see Boris has spoken out against trans women competing in women's sport.
I have a dilemma as I don't want to be agreeing with by far the worst PM this century and probably the last but maybe he has a point for once.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:42 pm I see Boris has spoken out against trans women competing in women's sport.
I have a dilemma as I don't want to be agreeing with by far the worst PM this century and probably the last but maybe he has a point for once.

Good news for you. He doesn't.

There's an article here. We had a dicussion on this forum recently (I might look for it later but I haven't got time now), and I think the general conclusion was that he does at least have a point (well, not Johnson specifically as he wasn't discussed).

Mark James wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:07 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:42 pm I see Boris has spoken out against trans women competing in women's sport.
I have a dilemma as I don't want to be agreeing with by far the worst PM this century and probably the last but maybe he has a point for once.

Good news for you. He doesn't.

Unfortunately I have to agree with the cunt for once (Boris that is, not Meakin (the cunt that is, not the agreeing)).

There's a lot of discussion in the Olympics thread from this post onwards. My take on it is largely covered by this post. Here is the main part of the post:

my general view has been that you'll never find a proper satisfactory balance so that trans women can compete in the female category. You can only really base what measures need to be taken (e.g. hormone-reducing drugs etc.) on statistical evidence. It's far too complex an issue to prove from first principles. And I don't think you'll ever really get enough statistical evidence. Even if you can show that average performance for trans women and cis women basically match, the shapes of the distributions are still likely to be different, and it's only the outliers that are really relevant because it's the outliers that win medals. And by their very nature, outliers give you limited statistical data.

A lot of people say it's a fuss about nothing because if there was such an advantage then trans athletes would be dominating, and they're not. But it only takes one person in one event. Let's say a trans woman in her early 20s starts to dominate the 100m sprint and is untouchable for 15 years or so. I think a lot of people would consider female track and field athletics to be severely damaged. Of course, they might then tweak the rules (about hormone levels or something), but really they'd be making it up as they go along based on a sample size of one, because proper statistics don't cover it.

And ultimately, I don't think it's the right thing to do to try and force this equivalence. You wouldn't race cheetahs against bears but put the cheetahs on some slowing drugs to make it a race. You'd have separate races. Socially it might be nice to accept trans women as women and not question their choices, but athletics is more about biology and I don't think it should be bound by the same social niceties. We have separate women's categories because of the biological differences that make them unable to compete with men at physical sports, not because of what they consider their identity to be. In the field of sports, I don't think we should be conflating these two things.

I'm sure you're all aware by now but Johnson and Sunak are both to be fined.

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:51 pm I'm sure you're all aware by now but Johnson and Sunak are both to be fined.

If there wasn't a war on there would be calls for them both to resign

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:58 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:51 pm I'm sure you're all aware by now but Johnson and Sunak are both to be fined.

If there wasn't a war on there would be calls for them both to resign

There are calls for them both to resign.

Your democracy is suffering because of these fools, and all democracies in turn. If you can't stick to the rules, you can't participate in the game. If he's allowed get away with yet another serious breach, the last remaining shred of trust in politicians will disappear

There can be absolutely no excuse for this. They both need to go (along with all their other cronies). If they stay in power, then that is an extremely dangerous precedent.

As opposed to Putin, who is an extremely dangerous president

I am surprised it is the surprise birthday cake which has elicited a fine, not least because I’m not sure what Boris was meant to do there. Rishi and Carrie on the other hand should be in hotter water.

They obviously thought it was OK at the time because it was reported in The Times at the time, and no one said anything, so I don’t believe he lied when he says he believed all rules were followed. So this particular “event” has always had a pass for me.

And the police’s decision to fine 3 weeks before the locals smacks of a political stunt to me - remember the Met have history here of acting politically partial (plebgate).

By extension that suggests that all keyworkers (a status afforded to No10 staff) who were surprised with cake at work should be fined, and that’s obviously ludicrous.

Now, if some of the other gatherings get fines, that’s a different matter. What is clear, however, is that information has been withheld from the PM by civil servants and staff.

Gray should be promoted since the civil service clearly needs a smashy-testes approach and Reynolds should have been fired as soon as the BYOB email emerged.

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:28 am I am surprised it is the surprise birthday cake which has elicited a fine, not least because I’m not sure what Boris was meant to do there. Rishi and Carrie on the other hand should be in hotter water.

They obviously thought it was OK at the time because it was reported in The Times at the time, and no one said anything, so I don’t believe he lied when he says he believed all rules were followed. So this particular “event” has always had a pass for me.

And the police’s decision to fine 3 weeks before the locals smacks of a political stunt to me - remember the Met have history here of acting politically partial (plebgate).

By extension that suggests that all keyworkers (a status afforded to No10 staff) who were surprised with cake at work should be fined, and that’s obviously ludicrous.

Now, if some of the other gatherings get fines, that’s a different matter. What is clear, however, is that information has been withheld from the PM by civil servants and staff.

Gray should be promoted since the civil service clearly needs a smashy-testes approach and Reynolds should have been fired as soon as the BYOB email emerged.

It's true that being surprised with a birthday cake isn't something you can ordinarily prevent, however looking at the broader picture suggests that this wasn't just a "one-off", but the kind of activity that his colleagues were clearly quite comfortable engaging in because they knew that he didn't really care much. We've now got evidence of a multiplicity of clear breaches, and the "I thought I followed the rules at all times" explanation is, quite frankly, bullshit. It is absolute piffle to suggest that he wasn't complicit in this.

For me, the fact that they were comfortable giving him this party suggests that they knew that he'd be alright with it - similar to how in school there was always that teacher who was extremely lax with the rules themselves (and therefore you felt able to relax your guard). People behave according to how those who are seen to lead them behave. If he'd taken a firm stance on rules being followed in number 10, there's absolutely no way that the birthday party - or any (or at least most) of the other events - would have happened, since people would have been concerned about being reprimanded.

I'm glad we agree that Rishi and Carrie should be in hot water (and both shouldn't be allowed anywhere near government), but Boris knew what he was doing too - he should resign.

We only saw my ailing great-grandmother a small number of times from 2020 until she died earlier this year, and only when it was expressly permitted. We knew she probably hadn't long left, but we made the sacrifice and I'm just glad she was able to have a decent funeral. Meanwhile, this guy and his chums were hosting social events and breaching rules consistently. That really does make my blood boil, because one is something you could wait to do, the other is something that can now never be done again. It is not forgivable.

If the Tory MPs don't do anything, Johnson's constituents could do a recall petition. I'd enjoy that.

They're trying to subvert the rules. I'd be organising a boycott of parliament until he goes, as it appears far too many are under his thumb and will end up on the wrong side of history

If you think that was a party I would hate to go to one of yours!

Ian Fitzpatrick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:58 am If you think that was a party I would hate to go to one of yours!

I don't think the quality of the party was defined in statute.

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:39 pm If the Tory MPs don't do anything, Johnson's constituents could do a recall petition. I'd enjoy that.

They can't, because a Fixed Penalty Notice does not amount to a criminal conviction (unless unpaid). The Recall of MPs Act 2015 says a recall petition can only be instigated in that event.

Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:19 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:39 pm If the Tory MPs don't do anything, Johnson's constituents could do a recall petition. I'd enjoy that.

They can't, because a Fixed Penalty Notice does not amount to a criminal conviction (unless unpaid). The Recall of MPs Act 2015 says a recall petition can only be instigated in that event.

Shame.

Jon O'Neill wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:13 pm

Mark James wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:07 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:42 pm I see Boris has spoken out against trans women competing in women's sport.
I have a dilemma as I don't want to be agreeing with by far the worst PM this century and probably the last but maybe he has a point for once.

Good news for you. He doesn't.

Unfortunately I have to agree with the cunt for once (Boris that is, not Meakin (the cunt that is, not the agreeing)).

No you don't. See this thread of why sport was actually segregated by sex.

https://twitter.com/shereebekker/status ... 6843935746

I think a clear distinction needs to be made of sports where strength is the primary factor like Weightlifting and boxing etc, and skill sports like Archery, Darts, Snooker.
Obviously team sports especially combine the 2 like in Football, Curling and Hockey.
Im all for combined team sports to grow in the future

I don't think that Tweet thread makes a strong argument at all. It's just a list of cherry-picked examples where men and women were separated not for reasons to do with men dominating, many of which were decades ago.

It doesn't address why, in 2022, most sports have separate men's and women's events. And it is quite clear that in most of these sports, there would be no women competing at the top level if they all had to compete together.

If anything, it seems she's making the argument that everyone should compete together - men, women, trans or not. But this is a bad argument so it doesn't get us to the point where we should then use it to discuss trans women competing in women's events.

I'm sure your heart is in the right place Mark, but you've got to do better than that!

In one sense, whatever. This is a forum for nerds who like a word game. Who's minds am I gonna change? If it means anything I can agree with you. It was a problem I found with that thread myself. If anything it was an argument for not segregating by sex which would mean trans women could if not should compete against cis men. Ultimately though the points was that gender critical people use the sports thing as a wedge issue to be anti trans under the guise of protecting women when in reality the idea of segregating by sex in the first place was anti women. It had nothing to do with fairness or science based evidence of differences between the sexes. It might have become that now and sure we can have those conversations (some sports are divided by weight class so why not by sex as well) but the idea that we can't have these discussions without being "cancelled" because of some "woke" orthodoxy is pure bullshit and the vast majority of these discussions are led by clearly bigoted people with agendas. And it doesn't stop at trans issues. Look at J.K Rowling. She had a recent twitter thread which was essentially having a go at both trans rights and the concept of unionisation. I hesitate to mention their names but look at activists like Chris rufo and James lindsey. These are right wing ideological conspiracy theortists who foment these culture war issues and lie and propagandise, while brazenly admitting that that's what they are doing, and people are falling for it hook line and sinker. Some people on the left might suggest a library reading list of books for kids that no longer includes classics or Shakespeare etc. and that's equated as censorship whereas people on the right are actually banning books. Look at Sajid Javid's latest remarks on trans medication. Completely unhinged misrepresentation of what's actually happening. These are concrete steps backwards towards a less tolerant society and minority rights that won't stop at trans rights. This is a systematic erosion of all lgbt rights that have been hard fought for for years. And it won't stop there. Abortion laws in the US in particular are under serious threat and with the hegemony they have could affect the whole world. Cop the fuck on to yourselves and see what's actually going on. Boris Johnson is not bringing it up because he has concerns for women's sport.

I saw a cartoon meme yesterday with two pictures
A patient and a doctor
(yes it would have been easier to find the damn thing)
The top one says I want my finger removed and the doctor said do you need to see a psychiatrist
The second picture the patient said I want to have my penis removed, the doctor replied how brave of you.

This sums up the attitudes of a lot of people of my generation, that cannot fathom transgenderism

My opinion on this, much like most, is based on a 'gut feel'. I don't have the scientific knowledge and access to research to know whether a trans woman athlete has an advantage that cannot be achieved by a biologically born woman. Perhaps it's not even a yes/no - to my ill-informed mind, it seems possible that a trans woman who had taken puberty blockers would be different to one who had gone through male puberty, but again this is speculation and guesswork. My point being that you or I or anyone else can have an uninformed opinion and voice it, but when the leader of the country chooses to make a public comment, it should be grounded in science, not in guesswork. And Mark's right - no-one gave a shit about women's sport until this issue - the fact that it's being so widely "debated" (and I have seen some very transphobic memes about it) comes largely from a position of transphobia, not from one of fairness (I'm not suggesting that's the case for the contributors of this thread!)

I read a lovely story about a parkrunner who transitioned and was concerned (among other things) about changing her gender on her parkrun profile. Parkrun did it without fuss, and she got a warm welcome under her new identity at her local parkrun. It definitely should never be an issue at recreational level.

https://blog.parkrun.com/uk/2020/02/12/ ... s-welcome/

Well certainly at an inclusive event like parkrun (which is also billed as not a race) there should be no problem.

But on the issue generally, I was talking to a friend about it and he agreed (with you two) that regardless of the exact specifics, Boris Johnson as prime minister has no need to talk about the subject except as a "dog whistle". And I agreed with him.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:56 am I saw a cartoon meme yesterday with two pictures
A patient and a doctor
(yes it would have been easier to find the damn thing)
The top one says I want my finger removed and the doctor said do you need to see a psychiatrist
The second picture the patient said I want to have my penis removed, the doctor replied how brave of you.

This sums up the attitudes of a lot of people of my generation, that cannot fathom transgenderism

And do you think the person who wants their penis removed doesn't see a psychiatrist?

What it sums up is is that ordinary people who don't understand the science think they can get informed on the issue by cartoon memes that strawman what actually happens. And that often times those memes are created purposefully by activists with an agenda.

I agree with you that ordinary people (for want of a better term) might see a funny little meme like that and think it speaks some sort of truth to the situation.

In reality though, it might actually be the case that someone who wants their finger removed doesn't need to see a psychiatrist. There could be an infection and amputation is the only way to stop the spread. People have limbs removed all the time without seeing a psychiatrist. However no trans person will have sex reassignment surgery without seeing a psychiatrist.

Swimming's governing body has banned transgender people who have gone through male puberty from competing in female events.

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:15 pm Swimming's governing body has banned transgender people who have gone through male puberty from competing in female events.

and now need other sports to follow suit!

There seems to be something new every day now. It hasn't got as much mainstream media attention as it should have but it recently came out that Boris Johnson and Carrie were caught mid sex act in Johnson's office by Conor Burns MP (while he was married to someone else of course). And now, it's come out that Boris Johnson actually did know about the upheld Pincher complaint, but just "forgot" about it. What are we going to find out tomorrow?

The guy is a national joke. Anyone still supporting him needs to have their heads checked. There will be people out there wondering how Donald Trump ever became president in America, but in full support of Boris Johnson, completely oblivious to quite how bad he is. He's a serial liar, incompetent, and had no principles but because he has his Mr Blobby persona he gets away with anything he wants.

Johnson has practiced this "just act like it will be fine and it will be fine" thing his entire life, long prior to being PM. It's always worked. Still does. He's not stopping now. For as long as we have him, accountability is dead.

Sajid Javid and Rishi Sunak have now resigned so maybe this one will actually matter.

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:21 pm Sajid Javid and Rishi Sunak have now resigned so maybe this one will actually matter.

You beat me to it here.
I think Boris will go in a fortnight or less.
Will the spineless one Raab follow suit I wonder

Weyyyyy. The rats are leaving the sinking ship after all.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:31 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:21 pm Sajid Javid and Rishi Sunak have now resigned so maybe this one will actually matter.

You beat me to it here.
I think Boris will go in a fortnight or less.
Will the spineless one Raab follow suit I wonder

Maybe as early as tomorrow?

Hopefully all their illegal shenanigans fall by the way too such as the Protocol Bill, the one trying to save guilty soldiers from prosecution which nobody in NI wants, even the DUP. Johnson was a disgrace and if he refuses to go, there needs to be civic action, a march on Downing St. It's a toss-up who was worse, him or Trump

Going, going gone by autumn

Ian Fitzpatrick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:53 am

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:15 pm Swimming's governing body has banned transgender people who have gone through male puberty from competing in female events.

and now need other sports to follow suit!

https://twitter.com/BrandiLynn4Ever/sta ... 0927908864

He shouldn't be allowed to hang on, who knows what further damage he'll do. Change the locks

Paul Anderson wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:54 pm He shouldn't be allowed to hang on, who knows what further damage he'll do. Change the locks

He is getting married at Chequers next month and if he hangs around like a bad smell he will beat Theresa May in length of Premiership.

Yeah it's a joke, escort him off the premises

Jonathan Pie on the case.

haha, that's a great video

Keir Starmer won't be going anyway as he's been cleared. It's bizarre it's taken so long though. With "normal people" they would either get a fine or not on the spot for COVID breaches. But even if there had to be an investigation, it's not like there were 70 parties to look at as in the Tory case - it was just one event.

Might have been better for Labour if he had got one, so they could have wheeled in Burnham to mount a proper challenge to the brigands, sorry tóraidhe

He's not an MP so they'd have to wait for a by-election and hope one comes up in a place where Labour can win and also where Burnham could claim he has some connection to.

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:48 pm Keir Starmer won't be going anyway as he's been cleared. It's bizarre it's taken so long though. With "normal people" they would either get a fine or not on the spot for COVID breaches. But even if there had to be an investigation, it's not like there were 70 parties to look at as in the Tory case - it was just one event.

Head of Durham PCC is staunch Labour