Track and Field (and Road) Athletics

[Marc Meakin]

Race walking is a joke event.

Yeah along with Dressage and Synchronised Swimming

[Gavin Chipper]

Race walking is a joke event.

Yeah along with Dressage and Synchronised Swimming

Yeah, if you go full Olympics or Commonwealth games then there's a lot of competition. But looking purely at the athletics championships then race walking wins by a country mile.

[Marc Meakin]

Triple Jump is the field event equivalent

[Fred Mumford]

Race walking is a joke event.

It's not even proper walking, it's basically "nearly running".

Whoever invented it should be forced to participate in a new event, "nearly swimming".

[Gavin Chipper]

Race walking is a joke event.

It's not even proper walking, it's basically "nearly running".

Whoever invented it should be forced to participate in a new event, "nearly swimming".

Having watched a little bit of the women's race, I'm convinced a lot of them were running, by having both feet off the ground. But when the commentators were explaining the rules they said it had to be visible to the naked eye or something. It's very difficult to be completely sure just watching live, so essentially they're allowed to cheat.

[Gavin Chipper]

Triple Jump is the field event equivalent

There are a few of what I would call "soft" events that likely consist of competitors that failed to make the mark at other events. Triple jump is one of them. Even the long jump likely consists of a lot of failed sprinters, but it seems more of an acceptable event in its own right.

Hurdles are another strange one. As well as likely being for failed real runners, the 110m (for men) and 100m (for women) are quite biased towards people of a particular stride length, since everyone takes the same number of strides between hurdles. The 400m hurdles just seems like a 400m race with a few jumps in. And Sydney McLaughlin having just got a time of 50.68 seconds really needs to step up to the real 400m event now. And what is the steeplechase about with that water jump? Just bizarre.

The decathlon/heptathlon - yeah.

By the way, I might have mentioned this before, but my granddad apparently held the Indian record for 400m hurdles and could have gone to the Olympics, but they couldn't be bothered to raise the money to send him.

But all that aside, it was good to see some world records, even if two of them were in the hurdles and one in perhaps the most bizarre event of the lot - the pole vault!

[Marc Meakin]

How old is the pole vault?
Did they used to land in a sand pit?

[Ian Fitzpatrick]

How old is the pole vault?
Did they used to land in a sand pit?

Yes they did and the pole was stiff, no bending at all.

[Gavin Chipper]

There may be something important I've not considered, otherwise they'd have done this by now, but why not simply allow the athletes to anticipate the gun? Scrap the 0.1 second rule and also scrap the random delay before the bang. Just have an audible 3-2-1-bang countdown to start the race. Then there's no excuse for starting too early or too late.

The same as swimming

Swimming doesn't do that though does it?

"On your marks"

...

*Weird noise*

[Adam Gillard]

There may be something important I've not considered, otherwise they'd have done this by now, but why not simply allow the athletes to anticipate the gun? Scrap the 0.1 second rule and also scrap the random delay before the bang. Just have an audible 3-2-1-bang countdown to start the race. Then there's no excuse for starting too early or too late.

The same as swimming

Swimming doesn't do that though does it?

"On your marks"

...

*Weird noise*

Skiing and snowboarding timed events / races tend to have three warning beeps then a different beep to start the run. That could work as an analogy.

[Gavin Chipper]

And Sydney McLaughlin having just got a time of 50.68 seconds really needs to step up to the real 400m event now.

As a follow up to this, Femke Bol won the 400m flat at the European championships with a new PB of 49.44s. However, she is primarily a 400m hurdler and in that event she has a PB of 52.03s, which is a difference of 2.59s. If Sydney McLaughlin were to set a flat time that much faster than her hurdle time, she would have a 400m PB of 48.09s. Going by proportion, she'd get 48.16s. Third on the all-time list is 48.14s, so she'd be around there.

However, this doesn't necessarily translate perfectly. If McLaughlin is a better hurdler than Bol (which she might be - dunno), then she would make less of an improvement going to the flat race. But on the other hand, Bol is primarily a hurdler and has done more competitive hurdle races, so her time of 52.03s is more likely to be representative (i.e. better) than her 49.44s on the flat. This would make the difference between the events greater, shifting things back in favour of a faster time for McLaughlin on the flat. Sub-48 would not be completely out of the question. For comparison, looking here, Marita Koch's world record is 47.60s and Jarmila Kratochvílová is second on 47.99s. Both clearly on drugs. Also next up is Salwa Eid Naser on 48.14s who is currently serving a ban for missing drugs tests.

While I'm here, Karsten Warholm's men's 400m hurdles record is 45.94s. Taking off 2.59s gives 43.35s, whereas going by proportion you'd get 43.65s. I'll just give you this link to see how it compares with the top times - though Wayde van Niekerk's world record is 43.03s.

The men's hurdles are higher than the women's by the way - 36 inches to 30. I'm not sure how you'd factor that in though. But even with men's extra height, I think an extra six inches makes the men's event harder than the women's, meaning that a man would probably gain more time going to the flat. And given that Warholm getting mid 43s for the 400m seems a bit optimistic to me, I'd suggest that Bol's 2.59s improvement probably suggests she's not the best hurdler in the world and that gap might not be the norm. McLaughlin might not get the same improvement. So maybe sub-48 would be a bit optimistic after all. Sub-49 though, yes.

[Marc Meakin]

Isn't it time for women's athletics became a level playing field (pun intended) to the men's.
Ie 110 metres hurdles, decathlon, 400 meres hurdles, steeplechase etc

Oh and don't get me started on the tennis and golf for that matter

Once Women's boxing was acceptable then any talk of adjusting events to protect women should be phased out.

[Gavin Chipper]

Isn't it time for women's athletics became a level playing field (pun intended) to the men's.
Ie 110 metres hurdles, decathlon, 400 meres hurdles, steeplechase etc

In the sprint hurdles, as well as being a different length (100m and 110m), the hurdle heights are different (as they are for men's and women's 400m hurdles). In the 100m they're 2'9" or 83.8cm, whereas in the 110m they're 3'6" or 107cm. This is a far bigger gap than justified by average height differences between men and women, and I've often thought that women's hurdles are comparatively too low. And I also think it's partly why Gail Devers was able to be a top sprinter and hurdler back in the 90s, though I am surprised that others haven't cottoned on to this.

Both events have 10 hurdles, and I think the logic for the men's race being longer is the longer average stride length, so there needs to be a bigger gap between the hurdles. The same logic would not apply for 400m hurdles because there isn't a set number of strides between hurdles as there is in the sprint hurdles. However, this means that the sprint events are specifically tailored to people of a certain stride length (so is presumably likely to end up with mostly people of a similar height), and I think it really shows how arbitrary the hurdle events are. I would not have them if I was revamping track and field athletics. Though race walking would be the first thing to go. Bye bye race walking. You are a joke.

[Gavin Chipper]

Eliud Kipchoge broke his own marathon world record today at the Berlin Marathon. His time of 2:01:09 wasn't as quick as his sub 2 hour run at an unofficial marathon in 2019 though. His time as being a top athlete surpasses Federer by the way, if you go by winning the big events anyway. Federer won his first grand slam in 2003 and his last in 2018. Kipchoge won the 5000m world championship also in 2003 and he's the top marathoner to this day.

[Marc Meakin]

Eliud Kipchoge broke his own marathon world record today at the Berlin Marathon. His time of 2:01:09 wasn't as quick as his sub 2 hour run at an unofficial marathon in 2019 though. His time as being a top athlete surpasses Federer by the way, if you go by winning the big events anyway. Federer won his first grand slam in 2003 and his last in 2018. Kipchoge won the 5000m world championship also in 2003 and he's the top marathoner to this day.

Difficult to compa the 2 as Kipchoge has the benefit of moving events throughout his career but Federer has played the same game on the three surfaces throughout his career

[Gavin Chipper]

It's obviously difficult to compare any sports but I don't really see that as a counterpoint. Roger Federer could have changed his specialist surface anyway.

[Marc Meakin]

It's obviously difficult to compare any sports but I don't really see that as a counterpoint. Roger Federer could have changed his specialist surface anyway.

It is hard to compare the two beyond the longevity factor.
Nadal probably has another 2 grand slams in him (French obvs,) so on paper his dominance should trump Federer but i would disagree

[Callum Todd]

This is pretty shit

[Gavin Chipper]

This is pretty shit

Yeah, you wonder how it happens. I've often done races that are suspected to be short (or long) but with bigger races you expect them to get it right. But also, how many times has it happened where they didn't notice their error later?

As it happens, the 10k road record isn't what I consider to be a major record as you have the 10,000m track record. The major road records are for the marathon and half marathon.

[Callum Todd]

Yeah I felt a bit cheeky posting my dirty road running gossip in this track and field thread but it reminded me of the sorts of discussions you athletics fans have tended to have before. 150m is a pretty big error for such a major race! I felt robbed when Strava called the Morley 10k 10m short.

[Gavin Chipper]

I've fixed the title. Anyway, in a sense this doesn't really matter. She got 30:18 which is only one second faster than she'd previously run. So she still has the British and European records at basically the same time (30:19), and also this run must have been slower so the short course didn't cost her a real record.

[Gavin Chipper]

Faith Kipyegon just beat the 1500m world record at the Diamond League in Florence.

[Phil H]

Faith Kipyegon just beat the 1500m world record at the Diamond League in Florence.

Perhaps all the more impressive given the absence of her closest rival (Sifan Hassan) and arguably her next closest rival (Gudaf Tsegay) from the field.

[Gavin Chipper]

Faith Kipyegon just beat the 1500m world record at the Diamond League in Florence.

Perhaps all the more impressive given the absence of her closest rival (Sifan Hassan) and arguably her next closest rival (Gudaf Tsegay) from the field.

She had pacers and lights going round the track though.

Edit - plus competitive races often turn out to be tactical - i.e. slower.

[Gavin Chipper]

Just watching the Paris Diamond League. They decided not to bother showing Jakob Ingebrigtsen trashing the 2-mile world record before the broadcast time. I wonder if they'll mention it.

[Gavin Chipper]

Kipyegon has now just beaten the 5000m world record having beaten the 1500m record last week. 10000 next week?

[Gavin Chipper]

And Girma gets the 3000m steeplechase record!

[Fiona T]

New parkrun record!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66010152

That's some parkrun debut.

(There are some miserable feckers on twitter - "I thought parkrun was about participation not speed" etc... - it is, but there's still a record and it just got broken!)

[Gavin Chipper]

New parkrun record!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66010152

That's some parkrun debut.

(There are some miserable feckers on twitter - "I thought parkrun was about participation not speed" etc... - it is, but there's still a record and it just got broken!)

13:45 isn't a bad time I suppose.

[Marc Meakin]

New parkrun record!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66010152

That's some parkrun debut.

(There are some miserable feckers on twitter - "I thought parkrun was about participation not speed" etc... - it is, but there's still a record and it just got broken!)

13:45 isn't a bad time I suppose.

I would struggle to cycle 5k that quick even with an electric bike unless it was mainly downhill

[Gavin Chipper]

Also Zharnel Hughes beat the British 100m record with a time of 9.83 seconds. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66010686

[Marc Meakin]

There was also a story of the fastest accountant who ran 9.93 last week who only started running competitively 4 years ago

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/65949718

[Ian Volante]

New parkrun record!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66010152

That's some parkrun debut.

(There are some miserable feckers on twitter - "I thought parkrun was about participation not speed" etc... - it is, but there's still a record and it just got broken!)

It's a perfect course for it - entirely flat, as it runs along the prom behind the sea wall, and is about 95% tarmac. It's horrible when windy due to being an 'along and back' style course, but really suits speed otherwise.

[Fiona T]

New parkrun record!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66010152

That's some parkrun debut.

(There are some miserable feckers on twitter - "I thought parkrun was about participation not speed" etc... - it is, but there's still a record and it just got broken!)

It's a perfect course for it - entirely flat, as it runs along the prom behind the sea wall, and is about 95% tarmac. It's horrible when windy due to being an 'along and back' style course, but really suits speed otherwise.

Yep did it a few years back - it was a fast time for me at the time!

[Marc Meakin]

This is incredible
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66272997

[Gavin Chipper]

This is incredible
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66272997

Yep. I watched that as it happened. The mile record was a bit weak compared to the 1500m though. But now Kipyegon has kind of levelled them up.

By the way I think the event I'm looking forward to most at the worlds is the men's 5000m. So much strength in depth in the field in that event at the moment.

[Marc Meakin]

Fantastic by Hughes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66283143

[Ian Fitzpatrick]

Fantastic by Hughes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66283143

But still only came in third!

[Marc Meakin]

Fantastic by Hughes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66283143

But still only came in third!

I didnt want to piss on his bonfire

[Gavin Chipper]

Anyone watching the world championships? Dutch runners fall over in the final straight, comprehensive study finds.

[Ian Volante]

Yes, and the new tech which flashes up the result as they cross the line is shite. Much worse that it used to be. I suspect AI is to blame.

[Marc Meakin]

Anyone watching the world championships? Dutch runners fall over in the final straight, comprehensive study finds.

I wasn't paying full attention at the start and was totally confused about what gender was racing at first.
Mixed relay is an exciting concept.
Still believe I will live long enough for mixed football to be an Olympic event, though probably 6 a side though.

I dis feel sorry for the Dutch girl.
Still, silver eh

[Gavin Chipper]

Anyone watching the world championships? Dutch runners fall over in the final straight, comprehensive study finds.

I wasn't paying full attention at the start and was totally confused about what gender was racing at first.
Mixed relay is an exciting concept.
Still believe I will live long enough for mixed football to be an Olympic event, though probably 6 a side though.

I dis feel sorry for the Dutch girl.
Still, silver eh

It happened in the 10000m as well by the way.

[Gavin Chipper]

Mixed relay is an exciting concept.

I might have said this before but if I was streamlining athletics and culling pointless events, relays would be one of the first to go, along with race-walking and decathlon/heptathlon.

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

Mixed relay is an exciting concept.

I might have said this before but if I was streamlining athletics and culling pointless events, relays would be one of the first to go, along with race-walking and decathlon/heptathlon.

Agreed on relays and race-walking, but the multi-discipline events seem an odd target. If athletics is fundamentally about who can run the fastest, throw the furthest or jump the highest then the decathlon and heptathlon determine, in some sense, the best overall athlete.

Hurdles can go, though. Who can run the fastest but we've put things on the track to make it harder for some reason. No other event has a parallel.

[Gavin Chipper]

Oh yeah, I'd get rid of hurdles too. One problem with multi-discipline events is that it's completely arbitrary which events you include so how much weight you give to different skills. Also they're all clearly athletes that couldn't quite make it at any particular event. So best overall athlete by some completely arbitrary weighting system among people who failed elsewhere. Not having it.

Triple jump also goes and there are way too many throwing events. I'm also eyeing the pole vault with suspicion.

[Ian Volante]

Oh yeah, I'd get rid of hurdles too. One problem with multi-discipline events is that it's completely arbitrary which events you include so how much weight you give to different skills. Also they're all clearly athletes that couldn't quite make it at any particular event. So best overall athlete by some completely arbitrary weighting system among people who failed elsewhere. Not having it.

Triple jump also goes and there are way too many throwing events. I'm also eyeing the pole vault with suspicion.

Well you're talking bollocks there, the multi-eventers are quite often world-class in at least one of their events.

[Gavin Chipper]

Oh yeah, I'd get rid of hurdles too. One problem with multi-discipline events is that it's completely arbitrary which events you include so how much weight you give to different skills. Also they're all clearly athletes that couldn't quite make it at any particular event. So best overall athlete by some completely arbitrary weighting system among people who failed elsewhere. Not having it.

Triple jump also goes and there are way too many throwing events. I'm also eyeing the pole vault with suspicion.

Well you're talking bollocks there, the multi-eventers are quite often world-class in at least one of their events.

Well what can happen a lot is that they have a specialised event but decide that they've got a better chance of outright winning if they look elsewhere. It's still a stupid event regardless.

Also, if I was keeping it, obviously I'd even it out between men and women rather than women doing 7 events and men 10. Also, I'd stick in a 5000m race. It's too heavily focused on speed and strength, with very little endurance. The women only go up to 800m which is very weird. Men at least do 1500, but it's not enough. You could have three running races - 100m, 800m and 5000m. Then long jump and high jump. Any more than one throwing event seems excessive, so we'll have the javelin because I see it as the "main" one. Might as well have the pole vault as it exists. I suppose we could have a hurdles event, but I'm making it the 3000m steeplechase to stick a bit more endurance in. We're still a bit short so maybe one more throwing event. We'll have the shot put as it's different enough from javelin. That's nine. We'll leave it at that so people don't confuse it with the current decathlon. So:

100m
800m
5000m
3000m steeplechase
Long jump
High jump
Javelin
Shot put
Pole vault

[Marc Meakin]

Oh yeah, I'd get rid of hurdles too. One problem with multi-discipline events is that it's completely arbitrary which events you include so how much weight you give to different skills. Also they're all clearly athletes that couldn't quite make it at any particular event. So best overall athlete by some completely arbitrary weighting system among people who failed elsewhere. Not having it.

Triple jump also goes and there are way too many throwing events. I'm also eyeing the pole vault with suspicion.

Well you're talking bollocks there, the multi-eventers are quite often world-class in at least one of their events.

I'm going back a few years but Daley Thompson would have come 4th in the Long Jump in 1980 if his decathlon distance was used

[Gavin Chipper]

Regardless of the truth of this conspiracy theory Sha'Carri Richardson is back and now the women's 100m champion. Only third in her semi-final though after a poor start but won the final. It was also the hardest of the three semi-finals.*

*Don't get me started on what it means to be a semi-final.

[Gavin Chipper]

The long jump and triple jump are also pretty crude. Your jump is measured by the further back bit of sand that is disturbed I believe, but when you land, it must be pretty random how far backwards the disturbance goes. Lasers all round!

In this case, not falling backwards is part of the skill. It's easy to throw your feet way out in front of you, but there's not much point just measuring where they land if you're laying flat on your back afterwards. I'd suggest that the long jump can be seen as analogous to getting across a river, and where any of you hits the surface is crucial in that situation.

I understand this, but there might be a "wake" that travels back a bit beyond where you actually make contact, and how far this goes is likely to be basically random.

Having watching some long/triple jump, the furthest back bit of disturbed sand (which is presumably where they measure to) seems to bear little relation to where they land in the pit. We're talking about several centimetres being down to chance.

[Gavin Chipper]

Sometimes it seems not too bad though. Still, I think it's time for a 21st century solution.

[Marc Meakin]

Fantastic win for Kerr

[Gavin Chipper]

Fantastic win for Kerr

That was a good race - very similar to the way Wightman beat Ingebrigtsen last year.

But I particularly enjoyed our British silver medal in the men's 400m... hurdles. That's right. Kyron McMaster from the British Virgin Islands, beat great runners such as Rai Benjamin and the outgoing world champion Alison dos Santos to finish second behind only the man himself, Karsten Warholm. He didn't seem to get any British attention, but surely he's as British as someone like Mark Cavendish, right?

[Gavin Chipper]

By the way, I'm often surprised by what I see as poor tactics in the distance races. In simple terms you have runners that have a better time and benefit from a faster race, and runners that have a worse time but have a good sprint finish who will benefit from a slow tactical race. (Obviously you have runners that can do well in either or have no chance either way, so these runners aren't that relevant here.)

But the thing is no-one can make you run a slow race. If it's slow and you don't want it to be, don't go with it. Also, if it is a slow race, people are running at a suboptimal speed. So even if you're content with this pace, it makes no sense to be at the back of the pack. You're just running even more suboptimally than everyone else. You should be near the front maybe second or third to make use of the minimal draft you get from not leading.

I think Jakob Ingebrigtsen made this mistake in the 1500m. He did generally lead but he should have gone out for a 3:27ish time which would have meant Josh Kerr wouldn't have close enough to beat him. Lamecha Girma set the world record in the 3000m steeplechase earlier this year, but he got outkicked by Soufiane El Bakkali on the last lap of the final - as always.

But I was pleased to see Agate Caune in the women's 5000m heats. She shouldn't have gone through on paper but the rest of them were pissing about running slowly so she just shot off, and they let her. They reeled her in but only a few of them got ahead and she qualified. Whoever came 9th (8 qualified) only has themselves to blame.

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

Still, I think it's time for a 21st century solution.

While we're at it, since they clearly have the ability to know how far back on the board the athlete's foot was when they jumped, why not do away with the board altogether and measure the actual jump distance, rather than the distance past the board, which is almost never the same thing.

Similarly, do away with false starts in sprinting and measure the time elapsed from the point the athlete actually left the blocks. Adds a bit of extra jeopardy as crossing the line first doesn't necessarily mean you've won.

[Gavin Chipper]

At local road races you normally get a chip time and a gun time. The chip time just measures from when you actually cross the start line. But prizes are generally awarded based on gun time so you can't sneak a win by starting later.

[Marc Meakin]

I see that the gold was shared in the Women's Pole vault and they are getting peltersfor not continuing to attempt 4.96M rto get a winner

[Gavin Chipper]

I see that the gold was shared in the Women's Pole vault and they are getting peltersfor not continuing to attempt 4.96M rto get a winner

The men did it in the high jump at the Olympics. You each get a gold medal. It's not like it's cut in half. Carrying on is a gamble if you can just share the gold. No-brainer.

In other news Shericka Jackson lowered her own non-Flo-Jo 200m world record to 21.41 seconds today.

[Gavin Chipper]

The podium shots are really weird by the way. Only showing the winner rather than a proper shot of all three and it has this weird sponsor background rather than just being out in the open in the stadium. Really horrible to look at.