c4countdown

Given that a large number of Coutdown afficionados are, let's just say "over 30", I can't help wondering how many potential/putative board members have been put off by amount of swearwords that I see in posts. Unnecessary, I'd have thought.

Having been around for a few weeks now (though without having contributed a great deal) it seems to me that the board is dominated by a clique and much of the chat is lost on people who aren't in the "inner circle". Without jumping down my throat, I'd be interested to hear what others think.

I'm over 30 too, and I agree with you. Disgusting little oiks.

Andy Thomson wrote:I can't help wondering how many potential/putative board members have been put off by amount of swearwords that I see in posts.

I agree. There's definitely not enough of them. Try a bit harder guys!

Andy Thomson wrote:Given that a large number of Coutdown afficionados are, let's just say "over 30", I can't help wondering how many potential/putative board members have been put off by amount of swearwords that I see in posts. Unnecessary, I'd have thought.

(Me)

Kai Laddiman wrote: (Me)

Sorry Kai.

Sorry Kai, but I agree with the clique comment. Sort it out you bunch of twatheads.

There is a clique on nearly all fora/forums I have visited. It comes from the fact that some people will have been on the forum longer than others. Why should I explain a load of inside jokes to someone who may not remain here longer than a week? As for the swearing it appears to be us over 30s who are doing it the most.

We explicitly don't have a policy on swearing and such like (if it's possible to explicitly not do something) because I generally trust people to behave like adults round here. I think being insulting is generally discouraged, profane or otherwise, but occasionally it happens and occasionally it's justified, so we don't need rules in stone. Casual swearing I personally couldn't give a shit about; if it makes you uncomfortable then don't do it, but respect other people's liberty to express themselves however they see fit. If people want to speak more politely to encourage the "over 30s" then that would be great but I don't think a top-down mandate is the way to do it. It's a thin line between disallowing phrases like "I fucking love Susie Dent" and outright censorship, which I try not to be accused of.

Regarding cliqueyness, I guess I agree, but that happens whenever you have a community of people and again it's not somethingthing we can have rules against. It's not particularly difficult to get into the clique. However a "How We Do Things At C4C" topic is long overdue and I will act on that shortly.

David O'Donnell wrote:As for the swearing it appears to be us over 30s who are doing it the most.

I was actually quite shocked when I did some searches, and saw the tiny, tiny percentage of my posts which do contain swears (< 2%) And some of those matches were from quoting other people's swears, so the true number is even less than that other number which I just referred to, but didn't write down and forgot.

Charlie Reams wrote:However a "How We Do Things At C4C" topic is long overdue and I will act on that shortly.

Cool, I wonder if I'm doing it right

Charlie Reams wrote:"I love fucking Susie Dent"

I like to think of C4C as a place where Kai can come and learn the new swear words he needs to keep the bigger kids on his side.

Another over 30 here (soon 40) who doesn't have any problem with people swearing.

I don't swear often, but it does happen, as some of my British co-workers were shocked to find out today. A manager of another department was being such an arse that I slammed the phone on the hook while he was still talking on the other end of the line. After which I used a few choice English* swear words which they thought were only known to sailors.


*) the Dutch tend to use most of the English four letter words a lot more freely than the Brits themselves - "shit"** is more or less a standard reaction to any small mishap, whether at home or in the office.
**) not sure if it's needed, but just in case... Sorry Kai

For expressing a good point sometimes, swearing can
Understandably be emphasised but one has to be aware that
Children also read this forum, like
Kai.

Chris Corby wrote:For expressing a good point sometimes, swearing can
Understandably be emphasised but one has to be aware that
Children also read this forum, like
Kai.

I think one of the weaknesses I have in myself as a person is "developing a thick skin," and part of that is accepting all your criticism, whether it be positive or negative. Sometimes, this criticism involves swearing.

None other than Great Kate Horton told me this, and I have been trying to inject a little humor of my own when attempting to do this. I think force of habit is one of the reasons why some of you swear.

Somebody on this forum used a word I shouldn't repeat when describing these types of people. But, this kind of thing you all do is all in fun and I understand it.

Simply put, as long as you get your point across any kind of communication is fine.

Chris Corby wrote:For expressing a good point sometimes, swearing can
Understandably be emphasised but one has to be aware that
Children also read this forum, like
Kai.

What about my little bro, Callum?

I think I have sworn a few times in the forum, but I do try to keep swear words out of my posts

Very good, Joseph!

I think you're a nice guy.

Jason Larsen wrote:Very good, Joseph! I think you're a nice guy.

A correlation between swearing and nastiness is a massive generalisation!

I'm somewhere in between on this, because I swear quite a lot but rarely if uever use swear words in prepared writing. And I don't generally think they add much to comedy - gritty dramas can benefit from them, but not if it's just a simple 'we want people to know that this character's edgy/rebellious/not very nice - we can establish that by having him swear'.

Martin Smith wrote:I'm somewhere in between on this, because I swear quite a lot but rarely if uever use swear words in prepared writing. And I don't generally think they add much to comedy - gritty dramas can benefit from them, but not if it's just a simple 'we want people to know that this character's edgy/rebellious/not very nice - we can establish that by having him swear'.

I don't swear at all.

One of the thing that irritates me most about swearing is when people use a "not naughty" expletive in stead (like "oh fudge", or whatever). What I don't understand is how this is in any way better than just swearing - the only problem (as far as I can tell from my purist viewpoint) is some spurious argument about how swearing just shows you're not thinking properly about what you're saying or whatever.

In summary, grrrr.

Kai Laddiman wrote: I don't swear at all.

I bet you would if you knew how. Just remember to apologise to yourself if you ever do.

The thing is, forums like this actually contain specific filters that can be tweaked to change swear words into non-swearing, e.g. fuck->flip or bollocks->balls, that sort of thing. If it really becomes an issue, it can be controlled.

Ben Wilson wrote:The thing is, forums like this actually contain specific filters that can be tweaked to change swear words into non-swearing, e.g. fuck->flip or bollocks->balls, that sort of thing. If it really becomes an issue, it can be controlled.

And one can then choose whether to use those filters, in the User Control Panel -> Board preferences -> Edit display options -> Enable word censoring.

Ben Wilson wrote:The thing is, forums like this actually contain specific filters that can be tweaked to change swear words into non-swearing, e.g. fuck->flip or bollocks->balls, that sort of thing. If it really becomes an issue, it can be controlled.

Even better if such a thing could be customised. I'm envisaging pre-watershed Eddie Murphy-style dialogue a la "Get in the fawn car you mother freaker!".

Michael Wallace wrote:One of the thing that irritates me most about swearing is when people use a "not naughty" expletive in stead (like "oh fudge", or whatever)

Except in the case of 'motherfudger', which is fantastic.

Kai Laddiman wrote:

Martin Smith wrote:I'm somewhere in between on this, because I swear quite a lot but rarely if uever use swear words in prepared writing. And I don't generally think they add much to comedy - gritty dramas can benefit from them, but not if it's just a simple 'we want people to know that this character's edgy/rebellious/not very nice - we can establish that by having him swear'.

I don't swear at all.

Good for you, Kai.

I gave up when I was 15, because I didn't like myself when I swore, but I respect the fact that it doesn't trouble other people's self-respect in the same way.

My real objection is to offensive language being used in circumstances that might offend and upset vulnerable people - children, ladies and the elderly, for example.

But then, as I consistently concede in my contributions, I'm just an old bore.

harry wrote: My real objection is to offensive language being used in circumstances that might offend and upset vulnerable people - children, ladies and the elderly, for example.

I generally don't swear in front of children and old people for the reason you suggest (it makes me feel bad) but I feel this is a bit of an abuse of the word "vulnerable". I mean, they're vulnerable to the flu and falling under buses, but no one ever died from a bit of "fucking".

Charlie Reams wrote:I mean, they're vulnerable to the flu and falling under buses, but no one ever died from a bit of "fucking".

This has to be quote of the entire c4c forum.

Charlie Reams wrote:

harry wrote: My real objection is to offensive language being used in circumstances that might offend and upset vulnerable people - children, ladies and the elderly, for example.

I generally don't swear in front of children and old people for the reason you suggest (it makes me feel bad) but I feel this is a bit of an abuse of the word "vulnerable". I mean, they're vulnerable to the flu and falling under buses, but no one ever died from a bit of "fucking".

I'd love to swear at my bridge club when a hand goes wrong but I do find myself compelled to keep a lid on it since they are all quite religious: one of our members is a priest. I did utter something along the lines of, "oh, for fuck sake" at one table when one of the old guys completely led me astray with his opening lead. Far from being offended he laughed so hard I thought it was going to culminate in his spluttering death.

Stephen Fry had a good position on swearing on that "Guilty Pleasures" programme. He disputed the argument that swearing was a sign of a poor vocabulary arguing that it was generally people with a good vocabulary who seemed to swear a lot whereas those with the poor vocabulary tended not to swear: stands to reason - they are missing the full gamut of swear words in their vocabulary arsenal.

I know I'm getting pompous here, and I'm sorry, but a reasonable starting point for me is to ask myself about the type of language that I would use in front of my mother, father, wife and children.

That, I feel, would be the type of language that I feel it would also be reasonable for me to use in front of individuals who might be other people's mother, father, wife and children.

As for my use of the word "vulnerable", children, ladies and old people are a lot more vulnerable than I am, and as a fit and healthy man, I have a social responsibility towards them. One of the ways that I can exercise that responsibility is by refraining from imposing upon them with language or behaviour that I might reasonably suppose they would find offensive or upsetting.

harry wrote:a reasonable starting point for me is to ask myself about the type of language that I would use in front of my mother, father, wife and children.

that would be an awful, awful starting point for me, I have such a beautifully foulmouthed family that Christmas might as well be called Cockingcuntmas. And I love it.

Wait, so a "fit and healy [sic] man" is less likely to be offended/upset by swearing than women/old people/children?

To be honest, I find that sort of generalisation pretty offensive.

Michael Wallace wrote:Wait, so a "fit and healy [sic] man" is less likely to be offended/upset by swearing than women/old people/children?

Not at all, but he can look after himself.

Charlie Reams wrote:

harry wrote: My real objection is to offensive language being used in circumstances that might offend and upset vulnerable people - children, ladies and the elderly, for example.

I generally don't swear in front of children

Liar liar liar liar liar liar

I would still say that "children, ladies and old people are a lot more vulnerable than I am" is dangerous territory.

harry wrote:

Michael Wallace wrote:Wait, so a "fit and healy [sic] man" is less likely to be offended/upset by swearing than women/old people/children?

Not at all, but he can look after himself.

Or rather (a) Yes he is less likely to be offended

but (b) He can look after himself.

Ah, leave harry alone. All he is saying is that he tries to be polite around women and children and the elderly. Nothing wrong with that at all.

I swear occasionally on here, but I'll usually only do it to really emphasise something, or if I think it makes a joke funnier, or something like that. I also wouldn't do it in a direct response to somebody like harry, that's just manners. I do see this place as kind of "messing about with my mates" though, so I'll use the same kind of language that I would "in real life", but even then toned down quite a bit to allow for the fact that it is a public forum. As I said above, I was actually stunned when I properly checked the proportion of my posts which contained offensive language to find it was so tiny, so I think I'm doing okay

(Edit to say that my posts are usually offensive for many, many other reasons though, come to think of it)

All hail my sweet mouthed li'l bro'. Isn't it funny how misleading online personas can be?

Countdown is about words (and numbers - but that bit won't help my argument and also I am 'c4' at numbers). Surely a good Countdowner will have a working knowledge of the abundant variety of words that make English such an expressive and all encompassing language. If it's good enough for DH Lawrence, it's good enough for me.
And yes, being over 30 actually means that I am grown up about these things.
I guess Andy could always set up his own 'language restricted' thread...and sit back whilst it gets bombarded with obscenities.

Jon Corby wrote:Ah, leave harry alone. All he is saying is that he tries to be polite around women and children and the elderly. Nothing wrong with that at all.

I already said I agree with the conclusion, but it's possible to do the right thing for wrong reasons. Surely you're not defending the notion that "ladies" can't look out for themselves?

Jon Corby wrote:I swear occasionally on here

Liar liar liar liar liar liar

I'm well over the 30 milestone, and although I rarely do it myself, the swearing doesn't bother me at all.

What does bother me at other boards which have a non swearing policy, "just because someone under 16 might see it", is the ridiculous lengths they go to to eliminate any chance of a profanity appearing. One board in particular has a list of banned words, and these are asterisked out whenever included in a post, even if the word is part of a longer word. For example, there was once a post about a recent football match between ****nal and Liver***l.

I feel that the approach at this board is far more sensible.

Howard Somerset wrote:For example, there was once a post about a recent football match between ****nal and Liver***l.

Good job Kanu doesn't play for Scunthorpe...

Howard Somerset wrote: "just because someone under 16 might see it"

Yep, haha. And seriously, is there anyone over the age of about 12 these days who doesn't know every swear word? This idea that we need to protect kids from certain words is bizarre.

Also it's lucky that Kanu doesn't wear a wristwatch.

I can personally vouch for the fact that not all elderly ladies are offended by swearing in forum posts or elsewhere. Do I have to fucking join in to prove it?

As to the cliquishness - it really shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody who lurked for a while before joining. The clique is part of what makes the forum attractive - people who get along together are more interesting than loners whose only form of communication is the flame.

Charlie Reams wrote:

Howard Somerset wrote: "just because someone under 16 might see it"

Yep, haha. And seriously, is there anyone over the age of about 12 these days who doesn't know every swear word? This idea that we need to protect kids from certain words is bizarre.

I think you could substitute an age well under 12.
I think at one time or another four of my grand children have told me to fuck off, and the oldest is only 11. I'm still waiting for the 6yo to join in.

Howard Somerset wrote: I think at one time or another four of my grand children have told me to fuck off, and the oldest is only 11. I'm still waiting for the 6yo to join in.

Do they not realise they have the second* awesomest grandpa ever?

* Family loyalty

Rosemary Roberts wrote:I can personally vouch for the fact that not all elderly ladies are offended by swearing in forum posts or elsewhere. Do I have to fucking join in to prove it?

As to the cliquishness - it really shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody who lurked for a while before joining. The clique is part of what makes the forum attractive - people who get along together are more interesting than loners whose only form of communication is the flame.

Quality post! I wish we had a rec-ing system so I could give this post the credit it deserves (my own words being not enough).

Charlie Reams wrote:

Howard Somerset wrote: I think at one time or another four of my grand children have told me to fuck off, and the oldest is only 11. I'm still waiting for the 6yo to join in.

Do they not realise they have the second* awesomest grandpa ever?

* Family loyalty

That's why they only tell me to fuck off. They'd be abusive otherwise.

Dominated by a clique? I wasn't keen when "outsiders" like Zef and Gevin seemed to be singled out for trivial things, whereas some of the "insiders" had free rein, but that doesn't seem to be an issue these days. So not a problem.

Put off by swearing? Possibly, but in practice I doubt if anyone who's going to participate in an internet forum will be put off by it.

Personally I swear occasionally, and only when I'm totally confident that no-one who heard me would be offended - so never in print. Indiscriminate swearing does offend me, but I appreciate that a lot of people, particularly younger people, don't think that way. And as I can't really come up with a logical argument for my views, I don't seek to impose them on others.

But think on this, you bright young things. In twenty years time, when you're running the country and paying my pension, every word you have ever committed to the ether will be public property. I'll be first in the queue for the Daily Mail the day they decide you're fair game!

On reflection, I've decided that I deserve about as much respect as the unnamed readers of the Personal Statement that accompanied your university applications. So if you can prove that contained swearwords, feel free to continue.

David

I LOVE that Jon has worked out the percentage of his swears! That just about sums up this forum for me - fabulous!

Swear words don't bother me, and to refer to Stephen Fry like someone else did (is there anything that man says that isn't worth quoting?), when he was on Parky (I think?) he said that why can we say words like murder, slaughter or rape etc which have horrible meanings, whereas fuck is unacceptable yet it's pleasant (in theory ). I didn't know you could have board settings which censor swearing - that's good and a solution to us all having different views on acceptability.

I have already said before that sometimes I find people a wee bitty too harsh to each other, but some of the time I guess those posts have been banter between mates.

There are a fair amount of 'in crowd' comments that I don't understand, but I just skim read them as I sometimes think it sounds like they don't know what they're talking about half the time either.

Generally, I'm amused far more than I'm offended in this place (sorry Jon, haven't worked out the percentage ) and it's become my second place (after facebook) I'm keen to come in to after work to find out what's going on.

David Williams wrote: On reflection, I've decided that I deserve about as much respect as the unnamed readers of the Personal Statement that accompanied your university applications. So if you can prove that contained swearwords, feel free to continue.

I think that's a poor example, given that we wrote those knowing that no one would actually bother to read them (at least whilst sober anyway). Letters to Santa are a much better benchmark.

Kai Laddiman wrote:

Chris Corby wrote:For expressing a good point sometimes, swearing can
Understandably be emphasised but one has to be aware that
Callum can also read this forum, like his big brother
Kai.

What about my little bro, Callum?

The above now edited Kai, just for you

Charlie Reams wrote:

Howard Somerset wrote: I think at one time or another four of my grand children have told me to fuck off, and the oldest is only 11. I'm still waiting for the 6yo to join in.

Do they not realise they have the second* awesomest grandpa ever?

* Family loyalty

That's you off my Christmas card list Reams.

Chris Corby wrote:For expressing a good point sometimes, swearing can
Understandably be emphasised but one has to be aware that
Callum can also read this forum, like his big brother
Kai.

Only for fun.

Chris Corby wrote:

Charlie Reams wrote:

Howard Somerset wrote: I think at one time or another four of my grand children have told me to fuck off, and the oldest is only 11. I'm still waiting for the 6yo to join in.

Do they not realise they have the second* awesomest grandpa ever?

* Family loyalty

That's you off my Christmas card list Reams.

Don't worry, Chris. Everybody, bar one, is second equal.

I'll tell you what's out of order on this forum; from my quick maths, 273/483 (56%) of users signed up to this forum have never ever made a post!
I'm genuinely shocked, it would be understandable if it was a private forum and people just wanted to read, but it's not.

Well, I'm happy to have started a thread that garnered much attention. As a 54-year-old Scot, I swear rather a lot. I don;t actually object to it at all. I just thought it might be interesting to find out what others thought.

As for the cliquishness, I agree that happens on every forum. The point about the large number of members who have not contributed at all or who have only contributed one or two posts is much more relevant. Which brings me back to the original question, perhaps - why have those people chosen not to stick around?