c4countdown

If you got a shitting dictionary yourself, you'd know why we're not 100%.

Jon O'Neill wrote:If you got a shitting dictionary yourself, you'd know why we're not 100%.

If there's one thing I wouldn't want a dictionary to do...

But anyway Jono is this because MORTICE is listed as a variant of MORTISE so we're left with the question of whether all the derivatives are valid? I think this is why Julian Fell didn't go for COLONISER once upon a time but I think it was confirmed as allowable. Has there not been a general ruling on this type of thing?

All variants and their inflections are valid.

It would be insane to suggest that you could allow MORTICER but not MORTISER. I didnt realise there needed to be a general ruling, its common sense isnt it?

The reason I wasn't 100% sure is if MORTICE referred only to the noun and not the verb - a bit like PRACTICE if it weren't American. I was 95% sure, and Mike confirmed it, so I don't see where there's any contention here.

I'm sure I came across a section in the Corral not long ago for submitting errors in the CountMax dictionary. I've just come across a word given by CountMax that doesn't appear in the dictionary, but now can't find the Corral section to report it. Was I simply imagining it? (Regrettably, such things do happen occasionally.) Or is this the place to mention the occasional error? I'd thought that this was simply a place for discussing CountMax.

There is such a page on the Corral but I don't really maintain it any more and I don't think anything links to it. I think this thread is a better place to contact the relevant people.

OK, the word the CountMax gave is BASSLINE; I don't see that in the ODE2r.

Safer to go with the more acceptable anagram, LESBIANS

Is RAGSTONE still missing from Countmax?

David O'Donnell wrote:Is RAGSTONE still missing from Countmax?

It's still not in the version I'm using.

The CountMax dictionary I'm using is dated 3rd Jan 08. Is there a later one I should download?

Howard Somerset wrote:

David O'Donnell wrote:Is RAGSTONE still missing from Countmax?

It's still not in the version I'm using.

The CountMax dictionary I'm using is dated 3rd Jan 08. Is there a later one I should download?

I think it's just missing, for some reason, from the wordlist. Or maybe it has ceased to be accepted but it did come up quite regularly in series 54 - I suppose at a push I will just stick with NEGATORS.

Howard Somerset wrote:The CountMax dictionary I'm using is dated 3rd Jan 08. Is there a later one I should download?

Yes.

Taking BASSLINE and BASSLINES out is a travesty, though. Stupid dictionary.

Did they take out GOATIER and GOATIEST from the new edition?

Charlie Reams wrote:Did they take out GOATIER and GOATIEST from the new edition?

Er...mmm.

Fixed now.

jimbentley wrote:Yes.

Taking BASSLINE and BASSLINES out is a travesty, though. Stupid dictionary.

Thanks Jim.

Following a quick count it looks like 72,159 words in all, after GOATIER and GOATIEST are removed. That's not too many to learn.

I think you must've typoed there, Howard, I make it 82,161 (GOATIER and GOATIEST are valid and were omitted, not the other way round.)

Charlie Reams wrote:I think you must've typoed there, Howard, I make it 82,161 (GOATIER and GOATIEST are valid and were omitted, not the other way round.)

Yep, it should now be 82,161. I've made all the changes mentioned in this thread, but I'm sure there are still plenty of errors lurking, so keep posting them as you find them, folks.

Charlie Reams wrote:I think you must've typoed there, Howard, I make it 82,161 (GOATIER and GOATIEST are valid and were omitted, not the other way round.)

Not a typo, Charlie. Just incompetent addition. I've still got the sum on a scrap of paper right by me. 65536 + 16625 = 72161. Better hide that before students start coming for the next term.

Jon O'Neill wrote:The reason I wasn't 100% sure is if MORTICE referred only to the noun and not the verb - a bit like PRACTICE if it weren't American. I was 95% sure, and Mike confirmed it, so I don't see where there's any contention here.

What does it say by its entry? Does it say "n" or "v" or just that it's an alternative spelling of MORTISE?

Gavin Chipper wrote:What does it say by its entry? Does it say "n" or "v" or just that it's an alternative spelling of MORTISE?

Both.

ODE2r wrote:mortice noun&verb variant spelling of MORTISE

Howard Somerset wrote: Both.

My old NODE has it as noun and verb as well. In contrast GAOL is only listed as a noun so if this is the same in the current dictionary presumably you couldn't have GAOLED, GAOLING etc.

jimbentley wrote:

Howard Somerset wrote:The CountMax dictionary I'm using is dated 3rd Jan 08. Is there a later one I should download?

Yes.

Taking BASSLINE and BASSLINES out is a travesty, though. Stupid dictionary.

Thank you for posting this list Jim .

Sorry for sounding picky, but you may want to know that you have got duplicates of the words ACARID, ALLOD, BARDEES and DIVI and you are also missing ISANGOMA. Sorry .

That therefore makes a total of 82,158 words .

Joseph Bolas wrote:Sorry for sounding picky, but you may want to know that you have got duplicates of the words ACARID, ALLOD, BARDEES and DIVI and you are also missing ISANGOMA. Sorry .

That therefore makes a total of 82,158 words .

Thanks for pointing these out, Joseph (was sure I'd checked for duplicates, but these must've crept in since then). I've corrected them all now and uploaded a new file - it's 82,159 words, though, as ISANGOMAS is also valid.

I just had BOLASES disallowed and BOLAS is in as a noun [treated as sing or pl]. Hmmm

jimbentley wrote:Thanks for pointing these out, Joseph (was sure I'd checked for duplicates, but these must've crept in since then). I've corrected them all now and uploaded a new file - it's 82,159 words, though, as ISANGOMAS is also valid.

Well, what I did was copied the word list into an Excel document (2007 version) and then highlighted all the words and you can then click on a button and it will delete all the duplicate entries for you, telling you how many entries were deleted and how many entries are left over.

Undoing the delete, you can then perform a conditional formatting, where you can highlight these duplicates and then you just scroll down until you have found them all .

Kirk Bevins wrote:I just had BOLASES disallowed and BOLAS is in as a noun [treated as sing or pl]. Hmmm

I would like for it to be allowed . I would like someone to risk it on Countdown and then I can get Susie's verdict.

Charlie Reams wrote:(GOATIER and GOATIEST are valid and were omitted, not the other way round.)

GOATIER was not allowed on the show, apparently because it isn't specified in the GOATY entry.

http://thecountdowncorral.com/cd/recap.asp?recap=1242

That must've changed between the 2nd edition and the 2nd edition Revised.

I've just checked the ODE2r.

Page xvii states that two syllable adjectives must have the ...er and ...est forms specifically mentioned in order to be accepted, whereas one syllable adjectives have ...er and ...est forms assumed.

GOATY does not appear as a main entry in the dictionary. Under GOAT, GOATY is listed as a derivative, but the comparative and superlative forms are not listed.

Therefore, it seams that GOATIER and GOATIEST are not valid words, so should be removed from the CountMax word list

Yep. In the previous edition, GOATIER and GOATIEST are listed explicitly.

Is this the place for mass noun arguments? DOLOMITES - yay or nay?

Or how about TYMPANIES?

David O'Donnell wrote:Or how about TYMPANIES?

Has been allowed on the show hasn't it? (Or at least given by DC)

Yes, although I think Damian later said that it was a mistake.

PRONER and PRONEST should be in.

Charlie Reams wrote:PRONER and PRONEST should be in.

Yes - the Coundown rules do make for some odd-sounding allowable words
If an adjective is a single syllable, then the '..ER' comparative and '..EST' superlative are allowed, even if they're not specified in the dictionary.
Hence, e.g. BADDER and BADDEST and GOODER and GOODEST are perfectly acceptable.

The mass noun one is tricky. Susie Dent usually says a plural of a mass noun is allowable if it's countable, but whether a mass noun is countable or not is not always obvious - not to me, anyway.

Wow! Going through the dictionary to find all the allowable words - that's real Countdown dedication.

Julie

Julie T wrote:

Charlie Reams wrote:PRONER and PRONEST should be in.

Yes - the Coundown rules do make for some odd-sounding allowable words
If an adjective is a single syllable, then the '..ER' comparative and '..EST' superlative are allowed, even if they're not specified in the dictionary.
Hence, e.g. BADDER and BADDEST and GOODER and GOODEST are perfectly acceptable.

Woah, steady on there! I think BADDER and BADDEST would be allowed anyway as I imagine they would be listed as they are quite common in slang usage. But not GOODER and GOODEST. I think one syllable adjectives are fine to stick ER and EST on the end if nothing else is specified but if a specific comparative and superlative are listed (so BETTER AND BEST), then I think these can probably be considered to be instead of, not as well as.

Au contraire my chipper friend. The show before my debut DC came up with the word GOODLY. On your basis it should be disallowed as nobody in their right mind says they did GOODLY. They say they did WELL. However it was allowed, and on the same basis GOODER and GOODEST should be as well.

Dinos Sfyris wrote:Au contraire my chipper friend. The show before my debut DC came up with the word GOODLY. On your basis it should be disallowed as nobody in their right mind says they did GOODLY. They say they did WELL. However it was allowed, and on the same basis GOODER and GOODEST should be as well.

You're all kinds of wrong there my chemical chum...

Dinos Sfyris wrote:Au contraire my chipper friend. The show before my debut DC came up with the word GOODLY. On your basis it should be disallowed as nobody in their right mind says they did GOODLY. They say they did WELL. However it was allowed, and on the same basis GOODER and GOODEST should be as well.

Next to GOOD it says BETTER and BEST, which are the comparative and superlative. It doesn't say anywhere in the dictionary that there can only be one comparative and superlative for each adjective, but I'm fairly sure that is what is meant. You would be hard-pressed arguing for GOODER and GOODEST to be accepted.

GOODLY has its own entry.

Jon Corby wrote:You're all kinds of wrong there my chemical chum...

Now I feel like a right piece of neodymium

There seems to be some disagreement here!
Maybe Damian knows what the ruling on single syllable adjectives with comparatives and superlatives already specified?
IIRC Susie Dent has made this ruling a few times, though I can't remember the specifics.
Of course, it would be great if she were a member of this forum, then we could ask her.
Unfortunately, she's probably far too busy, what with working in Dictionary Corner and being a new mum.
The rules laid out clearly on the Channel 4 website would be a good compromise, but I suppose there's only a few of us who are that bothered, and they'd probably still be open to interpretation anyway.

Charlie Reams wrote:PRONER and PRONEST should be in.

Is this saying that the words are allowed and have to be added to the dictionary or is this saying that these words should be acceptable but are not allowed?

I just had HUMOUS disallowed - could this be added to the dictionary as it's in the ODE.

Edit: And me and Paul both had DECLASSING disallowed in hypercountdown.

Kirk Bevins wrote:I just had HUMOUS disallowed - could this be added to the dictionary as it's in the ODE.

Edit: And me and Paul both had DECLASSING disallowed in hypercountdown.

Just looked this one up out of curiosity...

Curiously, the NODE and ODE2 both give HUMMUS, HOUMMOS and HUMOUS as being acceptable; ODE2r states that only HUMMUS and the new variant HOUMOUS are O.K. (so it looks like JimDic is up to date)

Is CHHAAP really a word? It's in Countmax, but not the shorter ODE, and a quick google reveals some people with this surname but no hint of a definition.

Paul Howe wrote:Is CHHAAP really a word? It's in Countmax, but not the shorter ODE, and a quick google reveals some people with this surname but no hint of a definition.

Just double-checked the ODE2r and CHHAAP is there, as a variant spelling of the word CHAAP. CHAAP is an official seal or stamp, used to approve or authenticate a permit or similar document.

EDIT: Whilst on the subject of unusual words in the dictionary, there is a word called GRRRL which is a young woman, regarded as independent and strong or aggressive, especially in her attitude to men or in her sexuality.

I also assume you can pluralise this to have GRRRLS and I am pretty certain that these and BRRR are the only words allowed on countdown that are spelt with three of the same letter consecutively.

Joseph Bolas wrote: Just double-checked the ODE2r and CHHAAP is there, as a variant spelling of the word CHAAP. CHAAP is an official seal or stamp, used to approve or authenticate a permit or similar document.

Thanks Joseph, I'll endeavour to use this ludicrous word in everyday conversation.

I had a similar reaction to the word WAREHOU which looked to me like someone had been interrupted while typing warehouse.

David O'Donnell wrote:I had a similar reaction to the word WAREHOU which looked to me like someone had been interrupted while typing warehouse.

I honestly thought you were making this up, but it is a marine fish of Australian coastal waters.

GENOCIDES should be added to Countmax. I know it's a mass noun but if you look on page xii - it specifically mentions GENOCIDES is allowable. I haven't gone through the rest so there may be more. LAMBINGS as well needs to be added.

We had an interesting debate on one syllable adjectives when a player had RIGHTEST disallowed and was later invited back to the show as a challenger again, but still lost (I think).

Another one that's allowed in Scrabble is MAINEST* which is the sort of word you'd never use in real life, but should be allowed. However you'd never actually need to play the word as it's the anagram of INMATES. I've been thinking a bit recently about words you never need to play, I reckon a large proportion of the dictionary, you'd never need to play the word as there is either an anagram or there's always a longer/equal length word. There are three categories of words I've come up with:

1) Words that have anagrams like NEGATORS / RAGSTONE where you only need to know one of them (AEINRST gives 7 words, for example)
2) Words that are never the longest like TIMERS (MAESTRI, METIERS, MISTIER, MOISTER, MUSTIER)
3)Words like timers that do not always give one letter longer but always give at least one word of the same length. PUNTER doesn't combine with any vowel to give a seven, but it always gives other six letter words, so PUNTER can never be the *only* six letter word in a selection.

Martin

Martin Gardner wrote:We had an interesting debate on one syllable adjectives when a player had RIGHTEST disallowed and was later invited back to the show as a challenger again, but still lost (I think).

I remember that. I like to think that it was because of us that he got another go.

Another one that's allowed in Scrabble is MAINEST* which is the sort of word you'd never use in real life, but should be allowed. However you'd never actually need to play the word as it's the anagram of INMATES.

But you might see one but not the other!

Countmax gives the double anagram BOUTONS/UNBOOTS but AFAIK UNBOOTS is not valid.

POUCHIER and POUCHIEST have gone the same way as GOATIER and GOATIEST.

Hmm... Jim said he had fixed all the things mentioned previously on the thread before uploading the new version, but he hadn't removed FERREL(S) yet so that still needs doing. (Edit to say: BLEATINGS, NUDISMS and POLICINGS still need to be added as well)

Summary of other mistakes found so far in Jim's latest edition:

BOLASES, PRONER, PRONEST and RAGSTONE should be in, but aren't.
GOATIER, GOATIEST, POUCHIER and POUCHIEST shouldn't be in, but are.

A newly-spotted one:

ZOWIES shouldn't be in - ZOWIE listed as an exclamation only, so you can't pluralize it.

Kirk's confusing things quite a bit! UNBOOT, UNBOOTS, UNBOOTED and UNBOOTING have been removed Kirk - I mentioned them before and it's been done. You must have been using an older version of CountMax / the dictionary file when it allowed UNBOOTS.

Also, regarding GENOCIDES and LAMBINGS and the like, I wouldn't regard any inclusion or omission of a mass noun plural in the list as a definite mistake, whether the word in question's been allowed on Countdown before or is mentioned in the introduction to the ODE or whatever, because Dictionary Corner frequently change their minds - as we've seen with CARMINES? MIL(E)AGES? and, as mentioned earlier, TYMPANIES (I think what happened with that one was that there was a discussion about it on the Yahoo! Group, Martin Gardner said "yes it's definitely fine", then Damian stepped in and said it actually wouldn't be allowed... then DC came up with it on the show some time later )

jimbentley wrote:Taking BASSLINE and BASSLINES out is a travesty, though. Stupid dictionary.

Were they actually ever in, though? They weren't in the NODE, aren't in the ODE2r. I haven't got a copy of the ODE2 any more so can't check that...

Jim am I right in thinking that you originally drew up your wordlist based on the ODE2, and then Corby did his own based on the ODE2r, and then you made the most recent version by comparing those two lists?

Gavin Chipper wrote:But anyway Jono is this because MORTICE is listed as a variant of MORTISE so we're left with the question of whether all the derivatives are valid? I think this is why Julian Fell didn't go for COLONISER once upon a time but I think it was confirmed as allowable. Has there not been a general ruling on this type of thing?

Not going for COLONISER was just a silly mistake, it's definitely fine. Likewise MORTICER.

As I understand it - to put it a bit more specifically than Damian did - the rule is that if a headword has an alternative spelling, then the spelling variation can be carried over into words listed (in the dictionary) as derivatives of the headword. E.g. MORTICE is listed as a variant spelling of the headword MORTISE, and MORTISER is listed as a derivative of MORTISE, so MORTICER is fine even though it's not specifically mentioned.

I think that's the rule, but actually applying the rule isn't always easy because you have to know which entry to look at... it so often depends on where you look first. Gevin, If you look under JAIL, you'd (probably) allow GAOLING; if you look under GAOL, you wouldn't... not easy (I got confused with SKEPTIC along these same lines earlier, because naturally enough, I only looked at the SKEPTIC entry itself, whereas you have to look under SCEPTIC to see that SKEPTIC isn't just an American spelling...)

Julian Fell wrote:BOLASES, PRONER, PRONEST and RAGSTONE should be in, but aren't.
GOATIER, GOATIEST, POUCHIER and POUCHIEST shouldn't be in, but are.

Not sure if these are in now, but also ISANGOMA and PLEASER, had to be added too.

Julian Fell wrote:Hmm... Jim said he had fixed all the things mentioned previously on the thread before uploading the new version, but he hadn't removed FERREL(S) yet so that still needs doing. (Edit to say: BLEATINGS, NUDISMS and POLICINGS still need to be added as well)

Summary of other mistakes found so far in Jim's latest edition:

BOLASES, PRONER, PRONEST and RAGSTONE should be in, but aren't.
GOATIER, GOATIEST, POUCHIER and POUCHIEST shouldn't be in, but are.

A newly-spotted one:

ZOWIES shouldn't be in - ZOWIE listed as an exclamation only, so you can't pluralize it.

Cheers, Julian, I'll make these changes and upload a new version later on tonight.

Julian Fell wrote:...BASSLINE...

Aye, BASSLINE somehow crept into Jon's list - although even he doesn't know how - so got included when we compared lists. I've taken it out now, though.

Julian Fell wrote:
Kirk's confusing things quite a bit!

Sorry - maybe I shouldn't add to this thread then as I evidently haven't got the latest version of Countmax. Where do I get it?