MENSA

Kai Laddiman · Post by **Kai Laddiman** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:24 pm

Anyone here involved in MENSA in any way?

Derek Hazell · Post by **Derek Hazell** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:30 pm

Kai Laddiman wrote:Anyone here involved in MENSA in any way?

Joyce Cansfield is, but then she's not here, so no.

When I was about your age, I filled in a MENSA application, and was told I would be eligible to join, which made me think perhaps they were short of members at that time! I didn't join though - couldn't afford the membership fee, so no.

Michael Wallace · Post by **Michael Wallace** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:34 pm

My parents were members in Australia, where it apparently involved getting together every so often and drinking beer. They then moved back here and found it wasn't quite the same, so left (they occasionally mention how they were "intelligent enough to leave Mensa").

They (Mensa, not my parents) keep sending me letters after some IQ test I did at Cambridge, but I have no inclination to join, since IQ doesn't really strike me as a particularly good indicator of whether or not someone is going to be a wanker (not to mention the sort of person who thinks having a high IQ is much to be proud of).

Ian Volante · Post by **Ian Volante** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:08 pm

TABLE.

Nope.

Andy Thomson · Post by **Andy Thomson** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:14 pm

Nah - they're all to dumb for me!

Gavin Chipper · Post by **Gavin Chipper** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:17 pm

It does seem to be a bit pointless.

"I have a high "IQ" and therefore I will pay money to join a club." Whatever.

Phil Collinge · Post by **Phil Collinge** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:41 pm

I agree it's rather pointless unless you want to actively take part in the social events, tournaments, special interest groups etc, although you could argue it has (perhaps vague) similarities with apterous if you wanted to.

I joined in 1991, after taking the test purely for morale boosting after dropping out of school. After 2 years I chose not to renew as I couldn't justify the then £25pa for something I didn't get any real benefit from.

Howard Somerset · Post by **Howard Somerset** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:59 pm

Been a member for about 20 years, since the time when Carol Vorderman was one of the UK committee members.

Not done a lot though. Entered a car treasure hunt once, and won it. And turned up at a pub meeting a few weeks later but found it a bit boring. Apart from that all I do is skim through the magazine occasionally, and read the maths magazine sometimes.

Phil Collinge · Post by **Phil Collinge** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:01 pm

How much is the annual fee these days Howard?

Howard Somerset · Post by **Howard Somerset** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:16 pm

Phil Collinge wrote:How much is the annual fee these days Howard?

Haven't a clue. I use direct debit.

edit - my filing system's better than I expected. It was £40 in 2007. But my filing system's not good enough to tell me what it was in 2008. It'll be somewhere in that pile "to be filed when I get around to it".

Kai Laddiman · Post by **Kai Laddiman** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:21 pm

Being a kid, I get it for just £10

But I agree, I've been in MENSA for about half a year and I've done nothing.

Howard Somerset · Post by **Howard Somerset** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:25 pm

I seem to remember seeing that old gits get a reduction too. Maybe I should let them know.

Neil Zussman · Post by **Neil Zussman** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:31 pm

I've considered joining (or at least trying to) a couple of times in the past, but the fee always puts me off. Could someone tell me what exactly they supposedly provide for this rather large sum of money?

Howard Somerset · Post by **Howard Somerset** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:25 pm

Neil Zussman wrote:I've considered joining (or at least trying to) a couple of times in the past, but the fee always puts me off. Could someone tell me what exactly they supposedly provide for this rather large sum of money?

Ok, Neil. As I see it, this is what you get.

Monthly magazine. A4 glossy. About 48 pages. Some articles, mostly by members. Classified ads. Six or so pages of listings of a selection of events around Britain in the following month. Couple of pages of puzzles, which are rarely up to much. Puzzles are often poorly written, with mistakes. If it's puzzles you're interested in you'd do far better buying a newspaper.

Eight page local monthly supplement. A5 black and white. I get sent the supplement for West Midlands, even though I live in the North West. Front page is editorial, the latest issue so full of errors I even felt moved to write in about it for the first time ever. Back page is a puzzle, which is no better than those in the main magazine, but at least they apologise in later issues for the mistakes, which is more than the main magazine does. Rest of supplement gives fuller details of local events, such things as meetings in pub, rambles, games evenings, cinema visits, meals, etc. There are usually many things to chose from any day of the week. And I've felt moved to attend two in the last 20 years. And from what I gather, I probably attend more than the average member. I guess other regions have a similar supplement.

Availability of almost unlimited meetings to attend (as mentioned above).

Free membership of up to three special interest groups. There are probably around 30 of these. And for a small fee you can join any number of additional groups. About a year ago I finally got round to joining one - the maths sig. This provides a quarterly publication containing articles written by members. Some are over my head, but most are interesting, and fairly readable. This maths publication is probably what I find most interesting of all; I should really have joined that sig years ago.

I hope I haven't given a too pessimistic view. I'm sure others could make it sound more interesting, if indeed they find it more interesting.

Jon O'Neill · Post by **Jon O'Neill** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:53 pm

The cheque for my membership fee bounced. Oh wells!

Michael Wallace wrote:My parents were members in Australia, where it apparently involved getting together every so often and drinking beer. They then moved back here and found it wasn't quite the same, so left (they occasionally mention how they were "intelligent enough to leave Mensa").

They (Mensa, not my parents) keep sending me letters after some IQ test I did at Cambridge, but I have no inclination to join, since IQ doesn't really strike me as a particularly good indicator of whether or not someone is going to be a wanker (not to mention the sort of person who thinks having a high IQ is much to be proud of).

Hang on, weren't you trying to convince me you came from a working class background? You fucking fraud.

Michael Wallace · Post by **Michael Wallace** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:59 pm

Jon O'Neill wrote:Hang on, weren't you trying to convince me you came from a working class background? You fucking fraud.

IIRC I was more trying to point out I wasn't as posh as Charlie, 'oo wot 'ad a propar educashun.

Charlie Reams · Post by **Charlie Reams** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:17 am

I have a general aversion to IQ as a concept because summarising one person's intelligence as a single number seems obviously bullshit to me (Gödel numbering notwithstanding). Having avoided IQ tests all my life, I was recently obliged to take one as part of an application process, and this served only to confirm my suspicions. The whole test took 12 minutes, so you had to answer roughly one question every 15 seconds for the duration; the format was multiple choice, so there's a fair degree of volatility in the results just from guessing. We weren't given any warning that the test would be so quick-fire until it was about to start. I'm also suspicious of how much you could ever expect to learn from such a short test. Nevertheless I scored 126, which isn't particularly remarkable but seemed okay; I then received a snooty letter from Mensa saying that my score wasn't high enough to join. This came as rather a surprise since I hadn't expressed any interest in joining. It also explained that I wasn't allowed to apply "again" for another year, etc etc. All rather presumptuous, I thought.

Anyway I believe the original tenet of Mensa was that people of high intelligence tend to get on well with each other. In my experience this is generally true. But you'd think such a group of soi-disant intellectuals would have realised by now that IQ has at best a weak correlation with intelligence, insofar as that concept can be defined at all, and maybe they should be directing their energy towards a replacement than a magazine full of cooked puzzles. But apparently I'm too stupid to join so what do I know?

Ben Hunter · Post by **Ben Hunter** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:38 am

Gavin Chipper wrote:"I have a high "IQ" and therefore I will pay money to join a club." Whatever.

Ha. This.

Kevin Thurlow · Post by **Kevin Thurlow** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:20 am

"I have a general aversion to IQ as a concept because summarising one person's intelligence as a single number seems obviously bullshit to me (Gödel numbering notwithstanding)."

Quite agree (and would also have been annoyed by their snooty attitude and by their junk mail) Doing the puzzles is fun, but nothing more, as they are not a true reflection of "intelligence" - try doing a test in a foreign language (one you can't speak obviously)... And some of the tests, especially the arithmetical ones, are ambiguous.

Joining Mensa is a bit like joining a chess or bridge club, or doing Countdown - it's a gathering of people with a common interest sometimes with an elitist attitude.

Craig Beevers · Post by **Craig Beevers** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:42 am

Yea some of the questions are clearly shite. I'm thinking in particular of the odd one out questions which nearly always require some background knowledge and you can always argue different methods of picking the odd one out.

Ben Hunter · Post by **Ben Hunter** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:32 pm

I once told a mate that the physicist Richard Feynman 'only' had an IQ of 124, and he replied with something like "yeah but his real IQ is obviously much higher". It's amazing the amount of reverence people display toward the shaky concept of IQ.

Richard Brittain · Post by **Richard Brittain** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:41 pm

I agree with the general consensus that IQ is ridiculous, and that Mensa is for stupid people.

George Jenkins · Post by **George Jenkins** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:00 pm

Richard Brittain wrote:I agree with the general consensus that IQ is ridiculous, and that Mensa is for stupid people.

I had an old golfing friend who was super intelligent and was in charge of a Government department. He was so intelligent, he could work out complicated mathematical sums in his head. He asked me if I could repair his electric clock which hadn't run for more than two years. I put a new fuse in the plug and it and miraculously it started running. He thought that I was very intelligent. When he was out of earshot, his Wife said to me, "common sense is much more useful than so called "intelligence"

Derek Hazell · Post by **Derek Hazell** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:08 pm

George Jenkins wrote:I had an old golfing friend who was super intelligent and was in charge of a Government department. He was so intelligent, he could work out complicated mathematical sums in his head. He asked me if I could repair his electric clock which hadn't run for more than two years. I put a new fuse in the plug and it and miraculously it started running. He thought that I was very intelligent. When he was out of earshot, his Wife said to me, "common sense is much more useful than so called "intelligence"

That's a good story. I often wonder how many perfectly good electrical items get thrown away because the fuse in the plug has gone, as it's just something people don't think of. Well, do you?

David Williams · Post by **David Williams** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:11 pm

Charlie Reams wrote:I have a general aversion to IQ as a concept because summarising one person's intelligence as a single number seems obviously bullshit to me (Gödel numbering notwithstanding). Having avoided IQ tests all my life, I was recently obliged to take one as part of an application process, and this served only to confirm my suspicions. The whole test took 12 minutes, so you had to answer roughly one question every 15 seconds for the duration; the format was multiple choice, so there's a fair degree of volatility in the results just from guessing. We weren't given any warning that the test would be so quick-fire until it was about to start. I'm also suspicious of how much you could ever expect to learn from such a short test. Nevertheless I scored 126, which isn't particularly remarkable but seemed okay; I then received a snooty letter from Mensa saying that my score wasn't high enough to join. This came as rather a surprise since I hadn't expressed any interest in joining. It also explained that I wasn't allowed to apply "again" for another year, etc etc. All rather presumptuous, I thought.

Anyway I believe the original tenet of Mensa was that people of high intelligence tend to get on well with each other. In my experience this is generally true. But you'd think such a group of soi-disant intellectuals would have realised by now that IQ has at best a weak correlation with intelligence, insofar as that concept can be defined at all, and maybe they should be directing their energy towards a replacement than a magazine full of cooked puzzles. But apparently I'm too stupid to join so what do I know?

Sorry, but the only tenable position is to have passed the test and declined to join. You can put in all the soi-disant Gödel numbering you like, but you're not fooling anyone.

Charlie Reams · Post by **Charlie Reams** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:32 pm

David Williams wrote:Sorry, but the only tenable position is to have passed the test and declined to join. You can put in all the soi-disant Gödel numbering you like, but you're not fooling anyone.

But I am officially cleverer than Feynman. Shall I collect my Nobel prize on the way out?

David Williams · Post by **David Williams** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:44 pm

Charlie Reams wrote:But I am officially cleverer than Feynman. Shall I collect my Nobel prize on the way out?

Prizes are for achievement, not for potential. Check the New Years Honours List for your MBE for services to Countdown.

Gavin Chipper · Post by **Gavin Chipper** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:38 pm

David Williams wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote:But I am officially cleverer than Feynman. Shall I collect my Nobel prize on the way out?
Prizes are for achievement, not for potential. Check the New Years Honours List for your MBE for services to Countdown.

But what about services to Apterous? Completely different.

Gavin Chipper · Post by **Gavin Chipper** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:51 pm

Also, even if you could define someone's intelligence on a one-dimensional scale, the IQ score system is surely rubbish. Have you noticed that whenever anyone says what their IQ is, they then have to translate it into top x%? Why not cut out the middle-man? Apart from a score of 100, any other score is fairly meaningless from an intuitive point of view. I think the best system would be a 0 to 1 scale where you score is the proportion of the population "more intelligent" than you so 0.25 would mean the edge of the top quarter, 0.5 is in the middle etc.

And also, from what I understand different IQ tests have different standard deviations so just telling someone your IQ (unless it's exactly 100) would be completely meaningless. And another thing - don't they sometimes work it out by dividing your "mental age" by your age and multiplying by 100? Is there any evidence that that would yield a consistent score? I think we're assuming this is for children, but even with just them is someone who has a "mental age" of 10 when they're 8 actually going to have a "mental age" of 15 when they're 12?

What's more - when people take IQ tests, the score they get is always relative to their age. I can understand this with children, but really adults could all be lumped in together. If being a certain age makes you thicker then tough. Maybe they could be given a second score as well to soften the blow but I'm all for an everyone against everyone all out war.

What is this is "intelligence" that they're measuring anyway?

Ian Volante · Post by **Ian Volante** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:14 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:Also, even if you could define someone's intelligence on a one-dimensional scale, the IQ score system is surely rubbish. Have you noticed that whenever anyone says what their IQ is, they then have to translate it into top x%? Why not cut out the middle-man? Apart from a score of 100, any other score is fairly meaningless from an intuitive point of view. I think the best system would be a 0 to 1 scale where you score is the proportion of the population "more intelligent" than you so 0.25 would mean the edge of the top quarter, 0.5 is in the middle etc.

And also, from what I understand different IQ tests have different standard deviations so just telling someone your IQ (unless it's exactly 100) would be completely meaningless. And another thing - don't they sometimes work it out by dividing your "mental age" by your age and multiplying by 100? Is there any evidence that that would yield a consistent score? I think we're assuming this is for children, but even with just them is someone who has a "mental age" of 10 when they're 8 actually going to have a "mental age" of 15 when they're 12?

What's more - when people take IQ tests, the score they get is always relative to their age. I can understand this with children, but really adults could all be lumped in together. If being a certain age makes you thicker then tough. Maybe they could be given a second score as well to soften the blow but I'm all for an everyone against everyone all out war.

What is this is "intelligence" that they're measuring anyway?

So, in summary, they're crap. As proved by the book which taught me how to increase my IQ by ten. And it worked. I somehow don't think it increased my intelligence.

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:09 am

Gavin Chipper wrote: What is this is "intelligence" that they're measuring anyway?

Most psychologists agree that the term is ill-conceived and suggest that the test measures 'mental speediness' but is not appropriate for assessing deeper, strategic thinkers. Although, probably reflecting poorly on current academic curricula, IQ scores do seem to be good at predicting academic success/failure.

Peter Mabey · Post by **Peter Mabey** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:42 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the majority of Mensa members regarded their membership as an opportunity to meet like minded people, rather as a cachet of superiority, being under no illusion about the restricted field which yhe entrance test covers.
Fortunately, I converted to Life Membership in 1964 for what turned out to be a bargain price (about 5 years' annual sub) so am now getting the magazine and a couple of SIGs without payment.

I don't go to the meetings much now, as without a car it's too much hassle (the last one took 2 1/2 hours each way by public transport.)

Charlie Reams · Post by **Charlie Reams** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Peter Mabey wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the majority of Mensa members regarded their membership as an opportunity to meet like minded people, rather as a cachet of superiority, being under no illusion about the restricted field which yhe entrance test covers.
Fortunately, I converted to Life Membership in 1964 for what turned out to be a bargain price (about 5 years' annual sub) so am now getting the magazine and a couple of SIGs without payment.
I don't go to the meetings much now, as without a car it's too much hassle (the last one took 2 1/2 hours each way by public transport.)

I don't think everyone in Mensa is a jerk, I just think most of them haven't questioned what the point of it is.

Gavin Chipper · Post by **Gavin Chipper** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:27 pm

David O'Donnell wrote:
Gavin Chipper wrote: What is this is "intelligence" that they're measuring anyway?
Most psychologists agree that the term is ill-conceived and suggest that the test measures 'mental speediness' but is not appropriate for assessing deeper, strategic thinkers. Although, probably reflecting poorly on current academic curricula, IQ scores do seem to be good at predicting academic success/failure.

I've always considered deeper reasoning skills to be a "better" definition of intellence, although harder to measure objectively so they take the easy way out. Having said that, I would have thought there is likely to be a fairly reasonable correlation between people's scores in IQ tests and "proper" intelligence.

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:37 pm

I should think there is a correlation but when all the questions must be answered in restricted time limits it does exclude the deep thinker.

Jason Larsen · Post by **Jason Larsen** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:32 pm

Carol Vorderman would say so if she were here!

Neil Zussman · Post by **Neil Zussman** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:27 pm

Howard Somerset wrote:
Neil Zussman wrote:I've considered joining (or at least trying to) a couple of times in the past, but the fee always puts me off. Could someone tell me what exactly they supposedly provide for this rather large sum of money?
Ok, Neil. As I see it, this is what you get.

Monthly magazine. A4 glossy. About 48 pages. Some articles, mostly by members. Classified ads. Six or so pages of listings of a selection of events around Britain in the following month. Couple of pages of puzzles, which are rarely up to much. Puzzles are often poorly written, with mistakes. If it's puzzles you're interested in you'd do far better buying a newspaper.

Eight page local monthly supplement. A5 black and white. I get sent the supplement for West Midlands, even though I live in the North West. Front page is editorial, the latest issue so full of errors I even felt moved to write in about it for the first time ever. Back page is a puzzle, which is no better than those in the main magazine, but at least they apologise in later issues for the mistakes, which is more than the main magazine does. Rest of supplement gives fuller details of local events, such things as meetings in pub, rambles, games evenings, cinema visits, meals, etc. There are usually many things to chose from any day of the week. And I've felt moved to attend two in the last 20 years. And from what I gather, I probably attend more than the average member. I guess other regions have a similar supplement.

Availability of almost unlimited meetings to attend (as mentioned above).

Free membership of up to three special interest groups. There are probably around 30 of these. And for a small fee you can join any number of additional groups. About a year ago I finally got round to joining one - the maths sig. This provides a quarterly publication containing articles written by members. Some are over my head, but most are interesting, and fairly readable. This maths publication is probably what I find most interesting of all; I should really have joined that sig years ago.

I hope I haven't given a too pessimistic view. I'm sure others could make it sound more interesting, if indeed they find it more interesting.

Thanks for the reply Howard. You've backed up my view that there is very little point in joining.

Oliver Garner · Post by **Oliver Garner** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:08 am

Kai Laddiman wrote:Anyone here involved in MENSA in any way?

Joined 2 years ago but didn't pay after the first year.

Alec Rivers · Post by **Alec Rivers** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:59 pm

Kai Laddiman wrote:I've been in MENSA for about half a year and I've done nothing.

Me neither, apart from reading the magazines. Apterous is much more fun.