Politics in General

Discuss anything interesting but not remotely Countdown-related here.

Moderator: Jon O'Neill

Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 11:43 am I know a lot of people don't like Owen Jones, but in one of his few non-Israel videos, I think he's done a good job of exposing Starmer's Labour over the winter fuel allowance.
Disclaimer , I haven't watched the video (I'd sooner watch Oasis) but I think means testing winter fuel allowance isn't so terrible.
I know as someone approaching pensionable age it smacks of Turkeys voting for Christmas , but Mick Jagger and Paul McCartney don't need it and those that cannot afford it surely by definition are entitled to pension credit.

Maybe I should put this in unpopular opinions thread
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I think it's about the exact implementation. On the face of it, it might just seem like a tax on the rich, but in practice it's not.
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 6:23 pm I think it's about the exact implementation. On the face of it, it might just seem like a tax on the rich, but in practice it's not.
I personally think this winter fuel payment cap (means test)
Is the tip of a very large future iceberg whereby the retirement age will shoot up towards 70 and private pensions will be compulsory and the NHS will probably go down a means test route by the next Labour government
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
User avatar
Callum Todd
Legend
Posts: 1214
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:38 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Callum Todd »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 11:43 am I know a lot of people don't like Owen Jones, but in one of his few non-Israel videos, I think he's done a good job of exposing Starmer's Labour over the winter fuel allowance.
I switched off after the first sentence. I highly doubt he can satisfactorily defend that assertion and it's just a horrible way to open a video if his goal is to actually persuade people, rather than just preach to his choir. Maybe this sort of style is why "a lot of people don't like" him.
Mark Deeks wrote:Callum Todd looks like a young Ted Bundy.
Elliott Mellor
Devotee
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Elliott Mellor »

Callum Todd wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 5:07 am
Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 11:43 am I know a lot of people don't like Owen Jones, but in one of his few non-Israel videos, I think he's done a good job of exposing Starmer's Labour over the winter fuel allowance.
I switched off after the first sentence. I highly doubt he can satisfactorily defend that assertion and it's just a horrible way to open a video if his goal is to actually persuade people, rather than just preach to his choir. Maybe this sort of style is why "a lot of people don't like" him.
I never bothered switching on in the first place after seeing "Owen Jones" mentioned.
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I totally understand that his style can be grating, but I will summarise some of the main points (I have not independently fact checked this):

1. Owen Jones says Labour claiming that there is this previously-unknown-about hole in the nation's finances was something that had already been predicted that they were going to do (he'd previously talked about it), and it was really just a way to push through cuts they didn't want to be scrutinised on before the election. The cuts to the winter fuel allowance were not in the manifesto and not put to the public before the election.

2. Rachel Reeves (the chancellor) had called for an attack on the payments back in the Ed Miliband days, so this isn't a surprise from her.

3. Means testing in this manner doesn't work and punishes the vulnerable. Only pensioners in receipt of pension credit are eligible for the winter fuel allowance, but about 30% of those eligible for this credit don't actually receive it (some people don't claim stuff they are entitled to), so not only will they not get the credit they are entitled to, but they will lose out on the winter fuel allowance as well. So it's a double whammy.

4. If all the pensioners who were entitled to credit claimed it, it would more than wipe out the savings made from this, so the entire policy is based on the assumption that people won't claim what they are entitled to.

5. People just below the threshold for pension credit are still struggling anyway.

6. Last year it was estimated by the House of Commons Energy Committee that there were almost 5000 excess deaths last year caused by cold homes. And analysis by Labour themselves in 2017 (when Starmer was in the shadow cabinet) warned that Tory plans to cut winter fuel allowance would increase excess deaths by about 4000 that winter.

7. Labour could instead have just increased taxes on the well-off but have chosen not to.

8. In a previous election (2017) Rachel Reeves tweeted saying it was Labour who would stand up for pensioners, defending the triple lock and winter fuel payments. Angela Rayner tweeted similarly.

9. This is a rich country, but the wealth is concentrated with the richest 350 households having a combined wealth of the entire economy of Poland.

10. Some Labour MPs voting for this were apparently reported crying about it, but voted for it anyway.
User avatar
Callum Todd
Legend
Posts: 1214
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:38 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Callum Todd »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 12:13 pm I totally understand that his style can be grating, but I will summarise some of the main points (I have not independently fact checked this):

[Summary]
Thanks Gev. Maybe if Owen Jones has been able to keep his tone as level as yours I would have listened to him for longer :)

Mostly sound stuff. I think I don't quite share his apparent conceptualisation of how causation works so that makes points 3, 4, and 6 sound a bit off to me. And 9 is just a weird comparison that, like his intro, feels more like an attempt at sensationalism than actually illuminating his audience. But otherwise fair enough.
Mark Deeks wrote:Callum Todd looks like a young Ted Bundy.
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 12:13 pm I totally understand that his style can be grating, but I will summarise some of the main points (I have not independently fact checked this):

1. Owen Jones says Labour claiming that there is this previously-unknown-about hole in the nation's finances was something that had already been predicted that they were going to do (he'd previously talked about it), and it was really just a way to push through cuts they didn't want to be scrutinised on before the election. The cuts to the winter fuel allowance were not in the manifesto and not put to the public before the election.


2. Rachel Reeves (the chancellor) had called for an attack on the payments back in the Ed Miliband days, so this isn't a surprise from her.

3. Means testing in this manner doesn't work and punishes the vulnerable. Only pensioners in receipt of pension credit are eligible for the winter fuel allowance, but about 30% of those eligible for this credit don't actually receive it (some people don't claim stuff they are entitled to), so not only will they not get the credit they are entitled to, but they will lose out on the winter fuel allowance as well. So it's a double whammy.

4. If all the pensioners who were entitled to credit claimed it, it would more than wipe out the savings made from this, so the entire policy is based on the assumption that people won't claim what they are entitled to.

5. People just below the threshold for pension credit are still struggling anyway.

6. Last year it was estimated by the House of Commons Energy Committee that there were almost 5000 excess deaths last year caused by cold homes. And analysis by Labour themselves in 2017 (when Starmer was in the shadow cabinet) warned that Tory plans to cut winter fuel allowance would increase excess deaths by about 4000 that winter.

7. Labour could instead have just increased taxes on the well-off but have chosen not to.

8. In a previous election (2017) Rachel Reeves tweeted saying it was Labour who would stand up for pensioners, defending the triple lock and winter fuel payments. Angela Rayner tweeted similarly.

9. This is a rich country, but the wealth is concentrated with the richest 350 households having a combined wealth of the entire economy of Poland.

10. Some Labour MPs voting for this were apparently reported crying about it, but voted for it anyway.
At least he didn't say that the majority of pensioners are Tory Voters and a lot of them will be dead by the time Labour will have suitable oppostion
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Elliott Mellor
Devotee
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Elliott Mellor »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 12:13 pm I totally understand that his style can be grating, but I will summarise some of the main points (I have not independently fact checked this):

1. Owen Jones says Labour claiming that there is this previously-unknown-about hole in the nation's finances was something that had already been predicted that they were going to do (he'd previously talked about it), and it was really just a way to push through cuts they didn't want to be scrutinised on before the election. The cuts to the winter fuel allowance were not in the manifesto and not put to the public before the election.

2. Rachel Reeves (the chancellor) had called for an attack on the payments back in the Ed Miliband days, so this isn't a surprise from her.

3. Means testing in this manner doesn't work and punishes the vulnerable. Only pensioners in receipt of pension credit are eligible for the winter fuel allowance, but about 30% of those eligible for this credit don't actually receive it (some people don't claim stuff they are entitled to), so not only will they not get the credit they are entitled to, but they will lose out on the winter fuel allowance as well. So it's a double whammy.

4. If all the pensioners who were entitled to credit claimed it, it would more than wipe out the savings made from this, so the entire policy is based on the assumption that people won't claim what they are entitled to.

5. People just below the threshold for pension credit are still struggling anyway.

6. Last year it was estimated by the House of Commons Energy Committee that there were almost 5000 excess deaths last year caused by cold homes. And analysis by Labour themselves in 2017 (when Starmer was in the shadow cabinet) warned that Tory plans to cut winter fuel allowance would increase excess deaths by about 4000 that winter.

7. Labour could instead have just increased taxes on the well-off but have chosen not to.

8. In a previous election (2017) Rachel Reeves tweeted saying it was Labour who would stand up for pensioners, defending the triple lock and winter fuel payments. Angela Rayner tweeted similarly.

9. This is a rich country, but the wealth is concentrated with the richest 350 households having a combined wealth of the entire economy of Poland.

10. Some Labour MPs voting for this were apparently reported crying about it, but voted for it anyway.
I'm going to ignore points 2, 9, and 10 as they don't add anything to this discussion and are at best tangential/sensationalism (which isn't really a surprise from Owen Jones and I'm surprised anyone still takes him seriously). I don't think 1 really adds much to this discussion either, even if it's certainly very sly if true. Point 8 is a bit distorted as well - they aren't abolishing either of them, and that argument reads as though they are.

I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea for the allowance to be more restricted than it currently is - I don't really see why someone who is really well off needs this benefit, however if at least the substance of points 3 and 6 is correct then I can certainly get behind the idea that it's not a particularly well-planned policy and is quite thoughtless. It probably raises more questions as to whether the pension credit system needs re-evaluating (a look at what it currently is suggests that you'd struggle even if you was a fair margin above the threshold so no longer qualifying for the winter fuel payment will be impactful to these people).
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I think 1 is actually very important, if there's anything in it. It would be a straightforward case of deceiving the electorate, and quite disgraceful.

I also don't think it's necessarily bad for it to be more restrictive than it is, but it's important how it's done.

The insistence that they won't do anything like raising income tax on the highest paid seems a bizarre red line for them.

To me it's not enough just that they're not the Tories. We should be able to have better than this lot.
User avatar
Callum Todd
Legend
Posts: 1214
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:38 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Callum Todd »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 12:13 pm I totally understand that his style can be grating, but I will summarise some of the main points (I have not independently fact checked this):

1. [...] The cuts to the winter fuel allowance were not in the manifesto and not put to the public before the election.

7. Labour could instead have just increased taxes on the well-off but have chosen not to.
Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:50 pm The insistence that they won't do anything like raising income tax on the highest paid seems a bizarre red line for them.
I think this is the real point here. So Labour have got in and have discovered (or had their secret expectations confirmed that) the treasury is on its arse. Given they didn't make many pledges about cutting stuff and saving money (or many pledges about anything for that matter) in the election campaign, I don't think it makes too much sense to pan them for doing stuff that was "not put to the public before the election" unless you go in for this idea that they knew how bad things were before the election.

So I think the real important question here to determine one's position on Labour's budget-related actions since taking government is:

How much did the state of public finances take them by surprise when they entered Government?

If you think the answer is something like 'not very', then the question is why did they not say so before getting into Government and be honest in the election campaign about the sort of frugal (dare I say 'austere'?) policies that might be necessary when they take office?

If you think the answer is something like 'a lot', then it doesn't make any sense to criticise them for coming up with cost-saving policies they didn't campaign on. The question is why this unpopular policy rather than something like raising taxes on high earners?

Either way, to me the next - and more important - question is: what do we do about the seeming state of perverse incentives in our politics? All large political parties now seem to be almost entirely concerned with how best to improve their chances at the next election, whether they be in the midst of a campaign or 5 years prior to one.

Why are parties are so obsessed with electioneering and the taboo of breaking an election pledge, even in the light of context-changing new information, that they would rather do something unpopular like this than cross that "bizarre red line" of raising taxes (even if only on highly paid people) - something that, in the election campaign, they repeatedly stressed they would not do if elected? Or if they did know about the financial situation beforehand, why would they lie about that and save the unpopular stuff until it was too late for it to hurt their election chances?
Mark Deeks wrote:Callum Todd looks like a young Ted Bundy.
User avatar
Mark Deeks
Fanatic
Posts: 2509
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:15 am

Re: Politics in General

Post by Mark Deeks »

If Labour knew how bad the finances were, and decided to NOT CAMPAIGN AROUND THAT, they're mad. It seems more likely that they genuinely didn't know.
Eoin Monaghan wrote:
He may not be liked on here, but you have to give some credit to Mark
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Mark Deeks wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:30 pm If Labour knew how bad the finances were, and decided to NOT CAMPAIGN AROUND THAT, they're mad. It seems more likely that they genuinely didn't know.
Maybe but it smacks of a government with a large enough majority to survive at least one more GE and by the time they are at risk we would have got used to it.
Basically this parliament they can pretty much get away with any policies not in the manifesto knowing it will get through
See Thatcher and Poll Tax
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
User avatar
Ian Volante
Lord of the Post
Posts: 4021
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:15 pm
Location: Edinburgh
Contact:

Re: Politics in General

Post by Ian Volante »

Marc Meakin wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2024 8:22 am
Mark Deeks wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:30 pm If Labour knew how bad the finances were, and decided to NOT CAMPAIGN AROUND THAT, they're mad. It seems more likely that they genuinely didn't know.
Maybe but it smacks of a government with a large enough majority to survive at least one more GE and by the time they are at risk we would have got used to it.
Basically this parliament they can pretty much get away with any policies not in the manifesto knowing it will get through
See Thatcher and Poll Tax
Thatcher and the Poll Tax? Not sure that was particularly successful.
meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles
User avatar
Mark Deeks
Fanatic
Posts: 2509
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:15 am

Re: Politics in General

Post by Mark Deeks »

"Ok so there's a massive problem with the finances. Should we blame the people whose fault it is?"

"No no, let's take the hit for this one and ruin our own momentum."

This new Labour lot might not be too good at politicking, time will tell, but there's no way they're that bad.
Eoin Monaghan wrote:
He may not be liked on here, but you have to give some credit to Mark
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Ian Volante wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2024 12:31 pm
Marc Meakin wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2024 8:22 am
Mark Deeks wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:30 pm If Labour knew how bad the finances were, and decided to NOT CAMPAIGN AROUND THAT, they're mad. It seems more likely that they genuinely didn't know.
Maybe but it smacks of a government with a large enough majority to survive at least one more GE and by the time they are at risk we would have got used to it.
Basically this parliament they can pretty much get away with any policies not in the manifesto knowing it will get through
See Thatcher and Poll Tax
Thatcher and the Poll Tax? Not sure that was particularly successful.
Yeah they just call it council tax now
The concept of unpopular policies being passed through parliament was the point I was making
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
User avatar
Ian Volante
Lord of the Post
Posts: 4021
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:15 pm
Location: Edinburgh
Contact:

Re: Politics in General

Post by Ian Volante »

Marc Meakin wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2024 5:33 pm
Ian Volante wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2024 12:31 pm
Marc Meakin wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2024 8:22 am

Maybe but it smacks of a government with a large enough majority to survive at least one more GE and by the time they are at risk we would have got used to it.
Basically this parliament they can pretty much get away with any policies not in the manifesto knowing it will get through
See Thatcher and Poll Tax
Thatcher and the Poll Tax? Not sure that was particularly successful.
Yeah they just call it council tax now
The concept of unpopular policies being passed through parliament was the point I was making
Council tax is quite different to the Community Charge as was.

On your main point then, a government with a decent majority can do whatever they like in theory.
meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Well within reason.
I'm guessing even a few Labour MPs would risk losing the Whip to a killing of first born policy .
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Do you think Israel , and in particular its leader ,
I won't name him (for no political reasons) has been going after it's enemies with impunity because Russia is at War with Ukraine ?
I'm probably stating the bleeding obvious here
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Israel can do what they want because countries decide what's "right" and "wrong" based on whether the act is committed by a pre-determined ally or not. Israel is an ally of America, Britain etc. so therefore they are the goodies. It's so transparently BS but it is what it is.
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

I'm liking the cut of Kemis Jib
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 8:18 am Israel can do what they want because countries decide what's "right" and "wrong" based on whether the act is committed by a pre-determined ally or not. Israel is an ally of America, Britain etc. so therefore they are the goodies. It's so transparently BS but it is what it is.
All points taken , but the hostage situation may have been the catalyst for the Israeli escalation of war but the prolonged attacks on Hezbollah outside of Gaza is continuing as nobody has the clout to challenge it
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 8:27 am I'm liking the cut of Kemis Jib
She's so bad she makes Powell the good Enoch.
Tal Lessner
Rookie
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:11 am

Re: Politics in General

Post by Tal Lessner »

Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 8:29 am but the prolonged attacks on Hezbollah outside of Gaza is continuing as nobody has the clout to challenge it
Are you kidding?

I love the "prolonged attacks" bit... Especially considering Hezbullah has been bombing Israel for 11 months refusing any attempt to end hostilities.

What is Israel supposed to do here? Continue the "nice" rounds of letting Hezbollah bomb civilians with only minor retaliation?
They had 11 months to stop that shite, started entirely by Hezbollah.

About the original comment, have no idea what the this has to do with Russia (other than Russia probably selling weapons Iran, who arms Hezbollah).
Also, keep in mind that in terms of the so called "Leader" Lebanon and Gaza are complete opposites.
While in Gaza he blocks any ceasefire agreement attempt because of his Nazi government allies and their fanatic religious lebensraum ideology.
In Lebanon it was the exact opposite, he tried avoiding escalation for a long time, while actually the pressure to strike in Lebanon came mostly from military leaders and from the political left - the same people calling for ceasefire in Gaza (Yes, most of the top people of security and defence services including the defence minister, do want a ceasefire in Gaza, it's the loonies on the far right stopping it). Netanyahu is a scared piece of shite whose entire agenda is to keep himself as prime minister. Him and the Nazis don't really care about the fact people in the north have been away from what's left of their homes for 11 months. Just like he doesn't care about the hostages and keeps the pointless massacre in Gaza going.

But seriously, back to Lebanon, people seem to forget that apart from the horrid occupation and killing in Gaza & West Bank. Israel is also surrounded by other forces who will annihilate should they have a chance. And as Hezbollah's actions have shown over the past year, also without much of a chance.
Israel is not at fault for being much stronger than Hezbollah, but when antagonising a much stronger force, one should know when to pull the breaks, and they had 11 months to do so.
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 8:34 am
Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 8:27 am I'm liking the cut of Kemis Jib
She's so bad she makes Powell the good Enoch.
You must have read my mind , she comes across as Enoch light
She makes valid points about integration but her language is clunky.
Kuensberg though is useless.
After footage of her saying she was middle class until she worked at McDonalds was surely a question to ask her rather than trying to get her to say she hates Muslims
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Presumably Hezbollah's attacks 11 months ago coincide with Israel's genocide in Gaza.

This is not an endorsement of Hezbollah and their actions, but the hate of Israel doesn't come from a vacuum.

Plus that thing with the pagers can only be described as terrorism.
Tal Lessner
Rookie
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:11 am

Re: Politics in General

Post by Tal Lessner »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 8:12 am Presumably Hezbollah's attacks 11 months ago coincide with Israel's genocide in Gaza.

This is not an endorsement of Hezbollah and their actions, but the hate of Israel doesn't come from a vacuum.
No.
Hezbollah launched the attack on 8th October. Following the 7th October massacre.
Sure, they can hate Israel, Israel occupied southern Lebanon for 17 years until 2000 almost 25 years ago. But this doesn't change the fact that they initiated an attack, refuse to end it, and you're trying to justify it by presuming.
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

OK, I might be wrong about the dates. I'm not justifying though but I do think each side has to be held responsible for its own actions. Being a lot more powerful and being able to unleash hell does come with that responsibility.
Tal Lessner
Rookie
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:11 am

Re: Politics in General

Post by Tal Lessner »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 8:34 am OK, I might be wrong about the dates. I'm not justifying though but I do think each side has to be held responsible for its own actions. Being a lot more powerful and being able to unleash hell does come with that responsibility.
And Israel was responsible trying to avoid full scale war for 11 months. But I guess internal Lebanon politics and Iran backing is more important for Hezbollah than not being attacked with full force.
I really can't see how Israel is supposed to act. Continue with business as usual, let Hezbollah throw some rockets, bomb some of their launchers in response and wait for the next attack tomorrow?
What exactly are the expectations here?
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Well going back to the initial attacks, Israel were very quick to start attacking Gaza and I've read a few sources saying Lebanon's attacks started in support of Gaza due to this, even if it did start very quickly after the Hamas attack itself.

But we're looking at this quite reactively. What should Israel have done given the Hamas attack, given the Hezbollah attacks etc. But years of occupation etc. creates terrorists and this mindset. It would take an entirely different type of approach. But it's difficult to break the cycle now.

If they were serious about peace they would change leader for someone that doesn't have this history and make moves towards a peaceful solution. Perhaps get the help of other countries - not America or any country that has a pre-determined side - to be involved in peace negotiations and solutions for the future.
Tal Lessner
Rookie
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:11 am

Re: Politics in General

Post by Tal Lessner »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:13 am Well going back to the initial attacks, Israel were very quick to start attacking Gaza and I've read a few sources saying Lebanon's attacks started in support of Gaza due to this, even if it did start very quickly after the Hamas attack itself.
Oh, yeah, keep this line. Hezbollah joined the attack on Israel. Hezbollah declared war without being attacked or occupied in any way.
Keep defending the indefensible.
Here's one for you - Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation encouraged by Iran to attack Israel without being provoked. How is that for you instead of some insane mental gymnastics?
Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:13 am But we're looking at this quite reactively. What should Israel have done given the Hamas attack, given the Hezbollah attacks etc. But years of occupation etc. creates terrorists and this mindset. It would take an entirely different type of approach. But it's difficult to break the cycle now.
Again, no occupation in Lebanon.
Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:13 am If they were serious about peace they would change leader for someone that doesn't have this history and make moves towards a peaceful solution. Perhaps get the help of other countries - not America or any country that has a pre-determined side - to be involved in peace negotiations and solutions for the future.
Nobody said Israeli government is looking for peace. But in this case there was no on-going conflict before. Hezbollah started the escalation, and Hezbollah refused to end it. Putting the blame on the horrible leaders of Israel is a bad joke here. But at least to some extent, Israeli forces have taken your advice, and changed the leader - of Hezbollah.

So you started by justifying Hamas attacks, and now you're justifying Hezbollah because their lovely innocent friends are attacked and they're just here to help? You should really stop thinking in black and white and in terms that anybody attacking the evil Israel (evil no doubt) is completely innocent.
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

No, you mistake an attempt at an explanation as a justification.

In terms of justification, your early posts in this thread came across to me as very pro-Israel and a justification of everything they were doing and then there was this big reveal that you didn't support them. So maybe it's a lesson that making black and white assumptions about what other people are thinking isn't always advisable.
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:47 am No, you mistake an attempt at an explanation as a justification.

In terms of justification, your early posts in this thread came across to me as very pro-Israel and a justification of everything they were doing and then there was this big reveal that you didn't support them. So maybe it's a lesson that making black and white assumptions about what other people are thinking isn't always advisable.
It has to be said that the majority of the Gernan people did not advocate the Final Solution in the same way the nation of Israel are not behind The Israeli government's perpetual war against tolertorists over brokering for peace and the inevitable 2 state solution in Gaza.
I'm sure the same could be said of the Lebanese people backing Hezbollah
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Tal Lessner
Rookie
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:11 am

Re: Politics in General

Post by Tal Lessner »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:47 am No, you mistake an attempt at an explanation as a justification.

In terms of justification, your early posts in this thread came across to me as very pro-Israel and a justification of everything they were doing and then there was this big reveal that you didn't support them. So maybe it's a lesson that making black and white assumptions about what other people are thinking isn't always advisable.
In my opinion the explanation was in order to justify the attack. Sorry if I'm wrong here. Regardless, this explanation is at best a poor excuse, they didn't think for a second they would actually help Hamas militarily. Nobody thought so or thinks so.

I'm here for interesting discussions, my early posts came as pro Israeli because:
1. At the time it looked from discussions here that nobody seems to take into account the 7th Oct massacre, and say what you want about Israel's genocidal tendencies, that massacre required extreme homicidal insanity, one that even Israel is not capable of.
2. At the time of our initial arguments, Israel's response was still mostly justified in my opinion.

Since then, many months have passed, and situation has changed. It's clear that Israel's goals in Gaza are no longer destroying Hamas & the return of the hostages as Israel claims, but purely just keeping the war going for Netanyahu to appease his Nazi government partners and keeping himself in power. Every single action from Netanyahu since 7th Oct is first of all weighed in terms of its affect on his political power, he is a dangerous man, he's not nearly as powerful as he has been up until 2019.
And like all crazy tyrants in the past, when having his back against the wall, he'll turn on his own people and country.

As for me personally, I go regularly to the protests in favour of a ceasefire deal with Hamas. Just like I was going regularly up until a year ago to the protests against the judicial "reform".
Every political argument with friends/family/colleagues other than here, I'm the "Gavin Chipper" condemning my own country and government.
I detest my country, I detest its government, the racist fascists who voted for it, the (not as much but still very) racists and fascists from the "opposition" (basically saying "we want to be racists, but not with Netanyahu"). I even find myself cheering for whoever plays against the Israeli national football team.
But then I come here, and I see all the posts here basically saying that Israel has no right to properly defend itself. So I find myself for the only time in my adult life, taking my racist fascist country side.
Seems to me that it's much easier to ignore basic facts once one has taken a side about a place far far away.
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Anyway we've had what looks like a terror attack in Tel Aviv and Iran have chucked missiles in. Pretty bad stuff, in isolation and for any future prospects of peace.
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 8:32 pm Anyway we've had what looks like a terror attack in Tel Aviv and Iran have chucked missiles in. Pretty bad stuff, in isolation and for any future prospects of peace.
Very understated Gev.
I'm cancelling my Amazon order for a 5 year diary
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I don't actually watch that many Owen Jones videos (despite what you might all think), but I happened to watch this one on Iran's attack on Israel. I do think he made some good points, including about what Keir Starmer said and about human shields.
User avatar
Rhys Benjamin
Postmaster General
Posts: 3117
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:28 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Rhys Benjamin »

Unleashed is a cracking read. Boris is an excellent writer, always has been.
The forum's resident JAILBAKER, who has SPONDERED several times...
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Rhys Benjamin wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 7:23 am Unleashed is a cracking read. Boris is an excellent writer, always has been.
I take it that's the name of his book? Excellent liar more like.

Edit - well he's not an excellent liar. He's quite transparent.
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:03 am
Rhys Benjamin wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 7:23 am Unleashed is a cracking read. Boris is an excellent writer, always has been.
I take it that's the name of his book? Excellent liar more like.

Edit - well he's not an excellent liar. He's quite transparent.
I might buy the audio book version az he reads it himself.

Though I bought Spare read by Prince Harry and I still haven't listened to it yet
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Marc Meakin wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:25 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:03 am
Rhys Benjamin wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 7:23 am Unleashed is a cracking read. Boris is an excellent writer, always has been.
I take it that's the name of his book? Excellent liar more like.

Edit - well he's not an excellent liar. He's quite transparent.
I might buy the audio book version az he reads it himself.

Though I bought Spare read by Prince Harry and I still haven't listened to it yet
Buying his book is just feeding the troll.
David Harrison
Rookie
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2024 11:55 am

Re: Politics in General

Post by David Harrison »

Rhys Benjamin wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 7:23 am Unleashed is a cracking read. Boris is an excellent writer, always has been.
Think it would be better placed in the fiction section in bookshops.
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:42 pm
Marc Meakin wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:25 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:03 am

I take it that's the name of his book? Excellent liar more like.

Edit - well he's not an excellent liar. He's quite transparent.
I might buy the audio book version az he reads it himself.

Though I bought Spare read by Prince Harry and I still haven't listened to it yet
Buying his book is just feeding the troll.
As deluded as he clearly is , he is an honest liar (oxymoron, emphasis on the moron )
He believes his bullshit and will lead the Tories again in 10 years when Sir Kier is ousted.
I'm sure the nonpolitical parts of the book will be more interesting than infuriating
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
User avatar
Ian Fitzpatrick
Devotee
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:23 pm
Location: Wimborne, Dorset

Re: Politics in General

Post by Ian Fitzpatrick »

Marc Meakin wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 4:21 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:42 pm
Marc Meakin wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:25 pm

I might buy the audio book version az he reads it himself.

Though I bought Spare read by Prince Harry and I still haven't listened to it yet
Buying his book is just feeding the troll.
As deluded as he clearly is , he is an honest liar (oxymoron, emphasis on the moron )
He believes his bullshit and will lead the Tories again in 10 years when Sir Kier is ousted.
I'm sure the nonpolitical parts of the book will be more interesting than infuriating
You think Starmer will last 10 years?!
I thought I was good at Countdown until I joined this forum
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Ian Fitzpatrick wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:49 am
Marc Meakin wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 4:21 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 3:42 pm
Buying his book is just feeding the troll.
As deluded as he clearly is , he is an honest liar (oxymoron, emphasis on the moron )
He believes his bullshit and will lead the Tories again in 10 years when Sir Kier is ousted.
I'm sure the nonpolitical parts of the book will be more interesting than infuriating
You think Starmer will last 10 years?!
Oh God no , I meant the Labour party.
Two tier Kier will last 2 years max
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Phil H
Enthusiast
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:52 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Phil H »

Nothing much been happening the last week or two.
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Very quiet time in the world of politics.
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 4:25 pm Very quiet time in the world of politics.
Us politics are beyond parody .
When do they realise that when a clown enters a seat of poor it doesn't become a Palace but a circus.
Bottom line.

American voters were financially better off under Trump.
The thought of a woman running their country was less palatable than the alternative
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Fiona T
Kiloposter
Posts: 1716
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:54 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Fiona T »

Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13798
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Yeah I watched the Pie video. I didn't follow the campaigns that closely but in general you need to make the case for yourself rather than just scaremongering on the opposition.

(But also it helps to say what you're linking to.)
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:40 pm Yeah I watched the Pie video. I didn't follow the campaigns that closely but in general you need to make the case for yourself rather than just scaremongering on the opposition.

(But also it helps to say what you're linking to.)
I can see similarities to Corbyns attempts to over come buffoon Boris when he went to the country a few December's ago.

Harris was no better than a VP the last VP to run America was Lyndon B Johnson , and we know how that turned out
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
David Roe
Enthusiast
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:58 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by David Roe »

Marc Meakin wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 7:52 am
Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:40 pm Yeah I watched the Pie video. I didn't follow the campaigns that closely but in general you need to make the case for yourself rather than just scaremongering on the opposition.

(But also it helps to say what you're linking to.)
I can see similarities to Corbyns attempts to over come buffoon Boris when he went to the country a few December's ago.

Harris was no better than a VP the last VP to run America was Lyndon B Johnson , and we know how that turned out
Gerald Ford actually, but I think that just strengthens your point!
David Williams
Kiloposter
Posts: 1290
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:57 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by David Williams »

Marc Meakin wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 7:52 amlast VP to run America was Lyndon B Johnson , and we know how that turned out
Civil rights and Vietnam. Bit of a mixed bag.
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

David Williams wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 3:39 pm
Marc Meakin wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 7:52 amlast VP to run America was Lyndon B Johnson , and we know how that turned out
Civil rights and Vietnam. Bit of a mixed bag.
Which seemed a lifetime away in 1963.
Civil Rights wasn't exactly created from a sense of achievement...1968 was a terrible time
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
User avatar
Callum Todd
Legend
Posts: 1214
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:38 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Callum Todd »

Marc Meakin wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 7:52 am
Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:40 pm Yeah I watched the Pie video. I didn't follow the campaigns that closely but in general you need to make the case for yourself rather than just scaremongering on the opposition.

(But also it helps to say what you're linking to.)
I can see similarities to Corbyns attempts to over come buffoon Boris when he went to the country a few December's ago.
I can also see similarities to Starmer's (successful) attempt to overcome Sunak earlier this year. I think the difference was that most people in the UK wanted rid of the Tory government, while the same sentiment (somehow!) didn't stand in the US against Trump. Obvs Tories were incumbent too so a carte blanche campaign can still posture as a 'change' vote.

That being said, as I think it's been mentioned here before, this Labour government actually didn't do very well in terms of popular vote in the general election. They just came out of the seat allocations fairly well, as did Lib Dems.
Mark Deeks wrote:Callum Todd looks like a young Ted Bundy.
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Cop 29 is a bit of a joke really.
And not just because the Taliban are there.
Most of the big players and biggest climate change offenders cannot be bothered to turn up
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

I see there is a petition to have another general election and it's already on 1 7 million
It would have better traction if it was on voting reform
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Glad the assisted dying Bill got through
At last this government has got something right
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Marc Meakin
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 6837
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Politics in General

Post by Marc Meakin »

Even though Trump seemed to beat Harris by a huge margin , actually he only won with 1.5% more votes than Harris
GR MSL GNDT MSS NGVWL SRND NNLYC NNCT
Post Reply