Countdown adjudication dictionary

[Philip A]

What should co events do about this? I've updated a thread here for that discussion


As for what happens on the TV show, is it that important? Surely the producers will just do whatever is best for the TV show, they don't really owe anything to "Apterites" do they? I think it's important to remember that Countdown is a Light Entertainment TV show, not an Olympic Sport.

Most likely outcome I would expect is to just stick with ODO.

Can confirm, the OUP have said that the deletions are permanent.

So my view is; Countdown, Co:events and Apterous (and indeed your app, which is excellent BTW) should 100% continue to use ODO (it’s now called ODP, Oxford Dictionaries Premium, but it’s still the same thing). For the top players who have studied the OED words, it’s just a case of unlearning. No more ONSTEEAD or ORANGITES etc.

I think this is good for the show though, because then it won’t overly favour players with the OED knowledge. So I think we could see more evenly matched playing fields from 2025 onwards. This is exciting tbh.

It would be great if Susie could explain these changes to viewers at some point. (She looked up ‘tartle’ and found it wasn’t in ODP despite being in OED).

[Gavin Chipper]

Nobody's ever going to get near Cillian/Tom/Elliott's points records without all the extra words are they? This whole era of Countdown will be looked back on like the few years of swimming where LZRs weren't banned

I could see 154 going despite this actually - but I can't actually see anybody getting into the 1000 club.

800 club will actually potentially mean something again

1000 may become unattainable, but the lower you go the less relevant it becomes. Most 800ish octochamps aren't offering words like DGJHGDPO, so it probably won't make much difference at that level.

This is definitely a good thing by the way. It's only bad for a small proportion of elite Apterites, 90%+ of whom have already been on the show anyway, so it only affects them on Apterous or at CO-events etc. For everyone else it's a positive.

[Steve Hyde]

I don't have Oxford Dictionaries Premium but I just had a quick check and if I'm right only two of the 9s in Ell's octorun (NODALIZES and POSTERIAD) will no longer be valid, so he would likely still have comfortably beaten 1000 with this dictionary.

NEOTERISM is gone; along with various other maxes from throughout the run (OPERANCE, MONODIAS, JUDICARE, BIOWAR). But yeah, still over 1000, those 317 numbers points definitely come in handy.

Perhaps that's the biggest lesson from all of this - practice your numbers, no dictionary update will ever take those away from you!

[Callum Todd]

I don't have Oxford Dictionaries Premium but I just had a quick check and if I'm right only two of the 9s in Ell's octorun (NODALIZES and POSTERIAD) will no longer be valid, so he would likely still have comfortably beaten 1000 with this dictionary.

NEOTERISM is gone; along with various other maxes from throughout the run (OPERANCE, MONODIAS, JUDICARE, BIOWAR). But yeah, still over 1000, those 317 numbers points definitely come in handy.

Perhaps that's the biggest lesson from all of this - practice your numbers, no dictionary update will ever take those away from you!

NEOTERISM is gone but MOISTENER isn't, and I have 0 doubt that Ell declares MOISTENER if NEOTERISM isn't valid at the time. So no points lost.

[Fiona T]

I don't have Oxford Dictionaries Premium but I just had a quick check and if I'm right only two of the 9s in Ell's octorun (NODALIZES and POSTERIAD) will no longer be valid, so he would likely still have comfortably beaten 1000 with this dictionary.

NEOTERISM is gone; along with various other maxes from throughout the run (OPERANCE, MONODIAS, JUDICARE, BIOWAR). But yeah, still over 1000, those 317 numbers points definitely come in handy.

Perhaps that's the biggest lesson from all of this - practice your numbers, no dictionary update will ever take those away from you!

NEOTERISM is gone but MOISTENER isn't, and I have 0 doubt that Ell declares MOISTENER if NEOTERISM isn't valid at the time. So no points lost.

Can't find moistener either!

[Fiona T]

Went through the first 66 (just cos that was two screens worth) 9s on Rob's words by usefulness (Jan edition) and 18 have no valid anagram. A further 21 have lost one or more of their anagrams. The good news is I no longer have to try and remember if it's IE or EI for PANDEIROS!

[Callum Todd]

Can't find moistener either!

Oh! Maybe we really can't take any words for granted anymore

Ell still gets 1000 though <3

[Conor]

I ran a few thousand simulations of new 15 rounders with the current dictionary (perhaps just before the latest update) and with the old ODE3 dictionary (from circa 2013). I was lazy and just assumed 40pts max for the numbers.

old mean: 125.76, new mean: 130.67. nothing too special there.

it's in the tails of the distribution things get interesting. with the old dic: ~1 in 52.6 games you could score more than 145. with the new dic that's down to just 1 in 12.2 !

i used a basic shuffling algorithm but i still think it's less favorable than the one on the show

i also implemented no real smartness to the letters picks (so no fishing or even basic stuff like pick an extra vowel if there's no E)

I used 30% 3V, 45% 4V and 25% 5V. I just reran it with only 4V picks and I got an old av. max of 128.8, and a new one of 134.7, which seems more in line with what we're seeing on the show.

^ when I compared the max distributions between old and new dictionary a few years ago

[Steve Hyde]

it's in the tails of the distribution things get interesting. with the old dic: ~1 in 52.6 games you could score more than 145. with the new dic that's down to just 1 in 12.2 !

This is the really interesting bit for me - a player capable of hitting 154+ is now much, much less likely to encounter a max high enough to break the record during their octorun. Plus the players who are of a high enough level to get near a max game have a lot of unlearning to do

[Andres Sanchez]

This is the really interesting bit for me - a player capable of hitting 154+ is now much, much less likely to encounter a max high enough to break the record during their octorun. Plus the players who are of a high enough level to get near a max game have a lot of unlearning to do

As someone that's been wanting to hit a max game on Apto, this is a big bug for me. The ease I had with using the common letters is now mostly gone, but if the words that are being removed started in the 2015 update with ODO then I can at least learn from Series 70 and earlier if my logic serves me right.

[Andres Sanchez]

What also sucks is that I'm running a tourney for friends in a server and heavily rely on Apto. And I agree that the Apterous dictionary should be updated to match Countdown standards, in case people care about that standpoint.

[Adam Gillard]

This is the really interesting bit for me - a player capable of hitting 154+ is now much, much less likely to encounter a max high enough to break the record during their octorun. Plus the players who are of a high enough level to get near a max game have a lot of unlearning to do

As someone that's been wanting to hit a max game on Apto, this is a big bug for me. The ease I had with using the common letters is now mostly gone, but if the words that are being removed started in the 2015 update with ODO then I can at least learn from Series 70 and earlier if my logic serves me right.

It sounds good for people like me who haven't played much since the 2015 update. I don't know (m)any of the "new" words to "unlearn", but I could probably get back into the swing of things with the "old" words easier than someone who has been playing regularly during the past 9 years.

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

would be a good thing for apto tickets not to be derailed by csw agenda nonsense

Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam... where do I start?
Well firstly I'd like to welcome this version of Adam back to the community! It has been ages since I've seen her, and I'd honestly thought you'd matured out of her, yet here we are. Maybe we should call her "Bell-end Adam", or "Bea" for short. Remember when you first joined the community on Countdowners, and allowed Bea to make a passionate argument that contestants should not be allowed declare a word unless they can define it... that was fun. Then late one night on Apto, you let Bea loose again to make a ferocious personal attack on me, simply because I would not cave in to cancel culture bullshit, and maintained that Richard Brittain is a Countdown legend. (He is btw. Gandiseeg = iconic. More iconic than "Tarantula" or the "bye bye Boynton" moment, though in fairness to you, those moments have their place in the lore too.)

Let me quickly point out that this is a C4C thread, and not an Apto ticket. Are you confused about where you are? Next, go to page 1 of this thread and read the OP [or just click here if you are not arsed/able to navigate to it]. Can you now keep a straight face and repeat you assertion about CSW chat derailing THIS thread? This thread started being about CSW. An idiot might argue that the subsequent chat about ODP and the big changes (particularly from the last few days) has "derailed it" from that original purpose... but they'd be wrong. This is how debate works in a free society... side topics and out of the box suggestions will occur.

wildly changes susie's role as well who has that connection with Oxford (who is much more important to countdown than anyone on apterous),

Poor argument. She is not a deity, just a person. A cruel shadowy producer type (not Damian btw) once told Carol "The show survived without Richard, it will survive without you!" As bad a thing as that is to say, it was true, and is true of Susie too. The format is more important than any one individual. This goes for anyone working on the show, or in the wider community (yes, even Charlie Reams).

CSW is just throw an S on anything and allow all american spellings. Keeping with the oxford makes much more sense to the lineage of Countdown.

Wondering are you a Tory voter?
I do admire the patriotism though, and you have a good point. The US spellings may be a bridge too far for the great British patriots out there, and they are many.

And throwing CSW stuff onto a ticket about an Oxford dictionary update is 100% pushing an agenda. People are reading that ticket to get information on the dictionary update - not an opinion piece of what's the best dictionary

Is it anything like the gay agenda, I wonder?
Personally yes... I would love to see all the CDers who refuse to attend my Scrabble events (spoiler alert: nearly all of them), and the Scrabblers who refuse to attend my co-events (spoiler alert: nearly all of them too!), come together at both. It is a dream. That's my agenda, and now seems like the optimum time to push it. (I have this knack of being able to see the big picture, when others can't see the wood for the trees. I didn't realise that was a talent until I met so many other smart people -mostly within this community if I am being perfectly honest- who are unable to imagine a better future coz they are so hung up on what the current status quo is.) The change would be good for word gamers everywhere. What is insane is that it's not your agenda, and every other Countdowner's agenda too.

It is nonsense

That part, I can agree with... assuming you are referring to your contribution here.
Btw, in my view, actions speak far louder than words... and for that reason, I have come to respect the Latchford. You were a decent chap when we recorded for Team Countdown, nothing shady or passive aggressive about you. And when my friend Alan went over to Co:Man, and found it rather unfriendly and cliquey, you were one of the only people who went out of your way to try include him. These are the things that matter. But please, as hilarious as she can be, could you try keep Bea on a shorter leash?

in my reading of that thread I think Fiona especially went out of her way to not "derail" the thread by sufficiently cordoning off her CSW comments from the main narrative of the thread.

ffs Callum. I dunno if you are more interested in lick-arsing Fiona or throwing shade on me... but at least you had the good grace to put derail in inverted commas. Try do better in future. Adam has no good argument here.

I think it's important to remember that Countdown is a Light Entertainment TV show, not an Olympic Sport.

Hmm, have you watched lately?
You may wanna have a word with Colin Murray on that point...
...times, they are a-changing.

[Callum Todd]

in my reading of that thread I think Fiona especially went out of her way to not "derail" the thread by sufficiently cordoning off her CSW comments from the main narrative of the thread.

ffs Callum. I dunno if you are more interested in lick-arsing Fiona or throwing shade on me... but at least you had the good grace to put derail in inverted commas. Try do better in future. Adam has no good argument here.

Hey, I think there must be some misunderstanding here. I've had no intention of "throwing shade" on you at all. I haven't even responded to anything you've said on this topic at all, but for what it's worth I think I have agreed with most of what I remember reading of it. We're all good

[Dan Byrom]

Wondering are you a Tory voter?

Ooph that's gotta hurt

[Fiona T]

in my reading of that thread I think Fiona especially went out of her way to not "derail" the thread by sufficiently cordoning off her CSW comments from the main narrative of the thread.

ffs Callum. I dunno if you are more interested in lick-arsing Fiona or throwing shade on me... but at least you had the good grace to put derail in inverted commas. Try do better in future. Adam has no good argument here.

Hey, I think there must be some misunderstanding here. I've had no intention of "throwing shade" on you at all. I haven't even responded to anything you've said on this topic at all, but for what it's worth I think I have agreed with most of what I remember reading of it. We're all good

I suspect the misunderstanding was reading "Fiona especially" went out her way, as opposed to Fiona "especially went out her way", the former reads "other people did not", the latter as "Fiona made an effort" given that Fiona was the one who was discussing with Adam and makes no judgement on anyone else. I read as the latter, presumably Eoin read as the former!

[Fiona T]

And while we're indulging in internet slanging matches, using "her" and "she" as insults really is no different in concept to using "gay" as an insult. Be better.

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

And while we're indulging in internet slanging matches, using "her" and "she" as insults really is no different in concept to using "gay" as an insult. Be better.

That actually did cross my mind, but given the acronym was BEA, my hands were tied.

[Marc Meakin]

As I am an Coundown fan who isn't an Apterire (not sure who else is in that particular Venn diagram) .
I'm curious about the reason for the expurgations etc.
Being a keen Scrabbler , going through yet another list (smaller this time , in fact so small I can memorise the 6.
ALF , ALFS ,TRANSMAN,TRANSWOMAN,TRANSMEN and TRANSWOMEN)
With lots of additions too , it took 1000 years in the making for SEAX , slightly less for OWO and UWU.
Obviously CSW would have been fantastic if Countdown adopted it
Maybe my hybrid Countdown/Scrabble variant (30 seconds per move consonants and vowels in separate bags) might have some interest

[Fiona T]

The explanation I got from OUP was:

"These words are a legacy from a much older version of Oxford Dictionaries Premium, and maintaining them on the current version was adding complexity to our update processes. These words were not being actively updated on OD Premium and consequently their quality and level of detail was falling short of the standard we maintain for the rest of the dictionary."

There doesn't seem to have been any qualitative judgement about what to remove - although most of the words are not common, there are a few every day words that have gone too, and plenty of rubbish that's stayed!

Unlike CSW, ODP isn't a list curated for a word game. The Countdown team had no pre-warning that the dictionary was changing.

[Marc Meakin]

The explanation I got from OUP was:

"These words are a legacy from a much older version of Oxford Dictionaries Premium, and maintaining them on the current version was adding complexity to our update processes. These words were not being actively updated on OD Premium and consequently their quality and level of detail was falling short of the standard we maintain for the rest of the dictionary."

There doesn't seem to have been any qualitative judgement about what to remove - although most of the words are not common, there are a few every day words that have gone too, and plenty of rubbish that's stayed!

Unlike CSW, ODP isn't a list curated for a word game. The Countdown team had no pre-warning that the dictionary was changing.

So is there not a definitive hard copy dictionary you can use for focal events ?
I have been quietly lobbying for a school friendly lexicogtaphy source (schools dictionary) to be the standard as removing slurs is not going far enough even though these days saying an 11 year old dropping the F bomb isn't anywhere near as bad as using the N word.
It might come to fruition if the current Scrabble World Champion lobbies for it (It was he , David Eldarwho first said it publicly )
I would love it as a schools dictionary contains around a third less words to learn

Maybe Channel 4 could get a paid sponsor to use as a dictionary source

[Andres Sanchez]

I mean, I think the only "definitive hard copy dictionary" that's used is ODP itself. Plus, I think Channel 4 has been trying to get a sponsorship/collab with Oxford, but the conversation's just been very one-sided.