Getting excited about your team's prospects when you've reached a semi-final is not "entitlement".Mark James wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:15 amAfter the Spain Italy match Rio Ferdinand said there was nothing about either team for England to worry about in the final. They hadn't beaten Denmark yet. In 2016 there was a "what to watch" segment in a newspaper which listed England vs France before yis lost to Iceland.Paul Worsley wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:09 pm This idea that England fans are "entitled" is 50 years out of date.
The C4C Football Thread
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Re: The C4C Football Thread
I think this is fairly wilful refusal to see what's there.Paul Worsley wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:58 am
Getting excited about your team's prospects when you've reached a semi-final is not "entitlement".
For what it's worth, I think many Scots have a similar sense of entitlement when it comes to qualifying for tournaments. A few years back it was widely assumed that we 'should' qualify at Slovakia's expense, despite them having at least a comparably strong team, a better recent record of qualifying, and in Hamsik - then Napoli's all-time top scorer - an attacking player far above the level of anyone we had.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
As skewed as they probably are, if you are ranked 4 in the world, to reach par you should expect to get to the semi final, so on that basis it is not fanciful to think we should make it to the final and win it too as it was a fifty fifty game
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
It's not quite as simple as that though as the favourites in a football match with two good teams is never favourite by that much, and statistically, you're always most likely to end up the middle side of your ranking (so lower if you're a high ranked team and higher if you're a low ranked team).Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:57 am As skewed as they probably are, if you are ranked 4 in the world, to reach par you should expect to get to the semi final, so on that basis it is not fanciful to think we should make it to the final and win it too as it was a fifty fifty game
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Pretty awful human being - no, I've done that loads before so I'll do a different one - full-on psychopath Priti Patel is getting stick for her stupid comments encouraging booing. I'm looking forward to seeing how this develops, but like the England football team, I don't think this will go as far as one might consider it to have the potential to.
Re: The C4C Football Thread
Team GB's women kick off the Olympic tournament at 8.30am tomorrow against Chile, with the men's tournament starting the following day.
As usual, the US will have the strongest women's team - at first I thought being midway through their own season would work against them, but the opposite might turn out to be true. Men's tournament more of an unknown quantity.
As usual, the US will have the strongest women's team - at first I thought being midway through their own season would work against them, but the opposite might turn out to be true. Men's tournament more of an unknown quantity.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Still cant understand why team GB cannot have a mens football team.
Surely any problems were eradicated at 2012
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Olympic football is a bit of a joke anyway with the whole age limit thing and probably other stuff I'm not aware of. As has been said by many people over the years, the Olympics is supposed to be the top event for a sport. Sports that have other tournaments that are bigger for that sport shouldn't be in the Olympics.
Re: The C4C Football Thread
Apologies, talking about unpleasant things here.
I've been finding all the Ronaldo love and adulation these past few days somewhat jarring.
There have been approximately zero major news outlets mentioning the allegation against him, which is still ongoing.
In summary:
2005 arrest, after two women accused him of rape. Charges were dropped after substantial evidence could not be found and the women withdrew their allegation.
2009 - Ronaldo paid Kathryn Mayorga $375,000 for silence. Der Spiegel (German paper) a few years ago published documents they obtained (as part of football leaks*). In the documents, Ronaldo speaks in graphic detail about the incident with Kathryn Mayorga, detailing (amongst many things) how she asked him to stop (and he didn't). Ronaldo's lawyers have alleged the document s in question have been falsified and threatened to sue Der Spiegel**.
Since the story broke, proceedings were reopened (to varying degrees of success, although Kathryn Mayorga has a new lawyer team at the minute. Ronaldo hasn't been in the US since. That may not seem unusual, although he didn't join with Juventus a couple of years ago on their pre-season tour, which is a bit unusual.
*No other documents in the Football Leaks reveal a number of years ago have been disputed. The majority were to do with taxes
**Der Spiegel have yet to be sued, or even attempted to be sued.
I've been finding all the Ronaldo love and adulation these past few days somewhat jarring.
There have been approximately zero major news outlets mentioning the allegation against him, which is still ongoing.
In summary:
2005 arrest, after two women accused him of rape. Charges were dropped after substantial evidence could not be found and the women withdrew their allegation.
2009 - Ronaldo paid Kathryn Mayorga $375,000 for silence. Der Spiegel (German paper) a few years ago published documents they obtained (as part of football leaks*). In the documents, Ronaldo speaks in graphic detail about the incident with Kathryn Mayorga, detailing (amongst many things) how she asked him to stop (and he didn't). Ronaldo's lawyers have alleged the document s in question have been falsified and threatened to sue Der Spiegel**.
Since the story broke, proceedings were reopened (to varying degrees of success, although Kathryn Mayorga has a new lawyer team at the minute. Ronaldo hasn't been in the US since. That may not seem unusual, although he didn't join with Juventus a couple of years ago on their pre-season tour, which is a bit unusual.
*No other documents in the Football Leaks reveal a number of years ago have been disputed. The majority were to do with taxes
**Der Spiegel have yet to be sued, or even attempted to be sued.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
I'm sure the British press will be all over this, particularly if the Mendy case goes to trial and he is convicted
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
They are decidedly not all over this. The coverage of Ronaldo's return and re-debut today has been nauseating. There is still an open civil case in the US, I wonder if Man United will go on a pre season tour there next summer?Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:03 pm I'm sure the British press will be all over this, particularly if the Mendy case goes to trial and he is convicted
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Fans of cancel culture, mandatory vetting etc. might find it nauseating, but thankfully in law "innocent until proven guilty" is still in place. Perhaps in the future the trial by jury system will get replaced by a Twitter vote based on how nauseated people feel, but not as yet.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
You sound like a legal expert, I'm impressed. Innocent until proven guilty is not equivalent to not having commited an offence. It comes from Article 6 of the Human Rights convention.L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:55 pmFans of cancel culture, mandatory vetting etc. might find it nauseating, but thankfully in law "innocent until proven guilty" is still in place. Perhaps in the future the trial by jury system will get replaced by a Twitter vote based on how nauseated people feel, but not as yet.
It relates to the entitlement to a fair trial and that your innocence is preserved until you are convicted in a court.
Lawyers representing Mayorga have been unable to serve Ronaldo with the relevant papers, mainly due to his avoidance of them. No fair trial has taken place, so yep, still technically innocent.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
I remember back in the 80s it was innocent until proven IrishNoel Mc wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:07 pmYou sound like a legal expert, I'm impressed. Innocent until proven guilty is not equivalent to not having commited an offence. It comes from Article 6 of the Human Rights convention.L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:55 pmFans of cancel culture, mandatory vetting etc. might find it nauseating, but thankfully in law "innocent until proven guilty" is still in place. Perhaps in the future the trial by jury system will get replaced by a Twitter vote based on how nauseated people feel, but not as yet.
It relates to the entitlement to a fair trial and that your innocence is preserved until you are convicted in a court.
Lawyers representing Mayorga have been unable to serve Ronaldo with the relevant papers, mainly due to his avoidance of them. No fair trial has taken place, so yep, still technically innocent.
But that's not relevant here
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Hahahah, that is excellentMarc Meakin wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:49 pm
I remember back in the 80s it was innocent until proven Irish
But that's not relevant here
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Well, this happened.Noel Mc wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:00 pmThey are decidedly not all over this. The coverage of Ronaldo's return and re-debut today has been nauseating. There is still an open civil case in the US, I wonder if Man United will go on a pre season tour there next summer?Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:03 pm I'm sure the British press will be all over this, particularly if the Mendy case goes to trial and he is convicted
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Stop the press! Ronaldo scored a free-kick today for the first time in two years. Still:
Callum Todd wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:34 pm Basically Ronaldo could learn a thing or two from James Ward-Prowse these days.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
From 18 betting firms listed on Oddschecker:
- 50% name England and France as joint favourites
- Six favour England outright and three favour France
- Nearly all have Germany, Spain, Sweden and Netherlands (in that order) as their next four most likely to win
- Longest price for Netherlands is 29/2 while shortest for any nation outside the top 6 is Norway at 33/1
- 50% name England and France as joint favourites
- Six favour England outright and three favour France
- Nearly all have Germany, Spain, Sweden and Netherlands (in that order) as their next four most likely to win
- Longest price for Netherlands is 29/2 while shortest for any nation outside the top 6 is Norway at 33/1
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Does anyone else think that calling the English women's football team the Lionesses makes them seem like an afterthought to the men's team?
Re: The C4C Football Thread
I think I saw someone else suggest this, but I don't quite follow why.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:00 am Does anyone else think that calling the English women's football team the Lionesses makes them seem like an afterthought to the men's team?
Whatever their logic or yours is, though, the general level and tone of coverage is probably more significant than the team name or nickname, and FWIW I think it's been quite healthy.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Women's football is more interesting to watch than the men's.
There I've said it.
There I've said it.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
This might be unfair, as I don't watch much football; but my general impression of elite team sport is that at the very highest level, optimal play can render a contest into a bore-fest of tactical manoeuvring, whereas a slightly lower level means that more mistakes are made, and therefore there's more opportunity for attacking play. Women's football is certainly played at a lower level than men's (in most cases, at the equivalent level of tournament) due to limited professionalism, so this may explain your impression.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:29 am Women's football is more interesting to watch than the men's.
There I've said it.
meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Well, I suppose it would have been more obvious if it had been the Three Lionesses. But even so, "lioness" is itself an afterthought word. "Lion" is sex neutral. Males and females can both be called lions, whereas lioness is just the female form, and it's also just lion with ess stuck on the end. They would have been better off using a different animal altogether and using the sex neutral term for that animal or at least a female form that is a separate word in its own right rather than a lazy form that just sticks a bit on the end.Phil H wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:23 amI think I saw someone else suggest this, but I don't quite follow why.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:00 am Does anyone else think that calling the English women's football team the Lionesses makes them seem like an afterthought to the men's team?
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Don't really see the difference between Lions vs Lionesses and 'the English football team' vsGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:27 pmWell, I suppose it would have been more obvious if it had been the Three Lionesses. But even so, "lioness" is itself an afterthought word. "Lion" is sex neutral. Males and females can both be called lions, whereas lioness is just the female form, and it's also just lion with ess stuck on the end. They would have been better off using a different animal altogether and using the sex neutral term for that animal or at least a female form that is a separate word in its own right rather than a lazy form that just sticks a bit on the end.Phil H wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:23 amI think I saw someone else suggest this, but I don't quite follow why.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:00 am Does anyone else think that calling the English women's football team the Lionesses makes them seem like an afterthought to the men's team?
(bold added)
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Mens elite football is a bore fest as like Ian has said its more tactical, plus too much emphasis on feigning injury and time wasting.
Football in the seventies was much more enjoyable in spite of awful pitches that weren't built to last a season, quagmires in the autumn and dangerous in the winter.
Fitness levels were laughable.
My dad and older brother would often see West Ham players having several pints in the local pub a night before a big game.
Also players weren't overpaid and pampered and live footy on the TV was a rare treat
Football in the seventies was much more enjoyable in spite of awful pitches that weren't built to last a season, quagmires in the autumn and dangerous in the winter.
Fitness levels were laughable.
My dad and older brother would often see West Ham players having several pints in the local pub a night before a big game.
Also players weren't overpaid and pampered and live footy on the TV was a rare treat
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
I suppose the difference is that if the women's team becomes more prominent, people might also start adding in "men's" as well to be clear when it's not obvious from the context. It's a less official status (just what people happen to say) and more fluid, whereas that nickname would be harder to change.Callum Todd wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:48 pm
Don't really see the difference between Lions vs Lionesses and 'the English football team' vs(bold added)
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Ah okay think I get you now. My point was that saying Lionesses rather than Lions was just to - whether necessary or not - clarify that one is talking about the women's team rather than the men's, just as saying 'women's football team' rather than just 'football team'. So I suppose it depends on the context: if it's obvious that the team being referred to is the women's team (e.g. in an article exclusively about the women's team, or during commentary on one of their matches) then 'Lions' should be fine.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
No, because nobody refers to the England men's team as "The Lions".Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:00 am Does anyone else think that calling the English women's football team the Lionesses makes them seem like an afterthought to the men's team?
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
But the Three Lions and this was discussed above.Paul Worsley wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:06 amNo, because nobody refers to the England men's team as "The Lions".Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:00 am Does anyone else think that calling the English women's football team the Lionesses makes them seem like an afterthought to the men's team?
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
In a similar vein.Ian Volante wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:06 pmThis might be unfair, as I don't watch much football; but my general impression of elite team sport is that at the very highest level, optimal play can render a contest into a bore-fest of tactical manoeuvring, whereas a slightly lower level means that more mistakes are made, and therefore there's more opportunity for attacking play. Women's football is certainly played at a lower level than men's (in most cases, at the equivalent level of tournament) due to limited professionalism, so this may explain your impression.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:29 am Women's football is more interesting to watch than the men's.
There I've said it.
Countdown without apterites is more interesting to watch than Countdown with apterites.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
https://fantasy.premierleague.com/leagu ... oin/kgrtvc
Fantasy league full of the countdowners if anybody wanted to join. Sure there's probably another few leagues knocking about but can't track them down
Fantasy league full of the countdowners if anybody wanted to join. Sure there's probably another few leagues knocking about but can't track them down
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Applies to men and women equally of course.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:19 pmBut this is kind of the point. Still all the hard work to win but without the World Cup at the end of it. Just some regional championship.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:05 pm However nowadays you could argue that the Euros have more quality teams seeing as apart from Brazil, Argentina and maybe Columbia mist of the worlds top 20 ranked sides are from Europe
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Fantastic performance from the ladies.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:38 pmApplies to men and women equally of course.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:19 pmBut this is kind of the point. Still all the hard work to win but without the World Cup at the end of it. Just some regional championship.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:05 pm However nowadays you could argue that the Euros have more quality teams seeing as apart from Brazil, Argentina and maybe Columbia mist of the worlds top 20 ranked sides are from Europe
I do believe when the men won in 66 women were banned from playing pro football.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
They mentioned this on the news as well, but banned by who? FIFA? The FA? If you don't have a governing body that caters for you, one can and should be set up. I don't think there would have been an actual legal ban (expect maybe in places like Saudi Arabia).Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:58 pmFantastic performance from the ladies.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:38 pmApplies to men and women equally of course.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:19 pm
But this is kind of the point. Still all the hard work to win but without the World Cup at the end of it. Just some regional championship.
I do believe when the men won in 66 women were banned from playing pro football.
Re: The C4C Football Thread
lmgtfyGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:33 pm
They mentioned this on the news as well, but banned by who? FIFA? The FA? If you don't have a governing body that caters for you, one can and should be set up. I don't think there would have been an actual legal ban (expect maybe in places like Saudi Arabia).
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
OK, thanks for that.Fiona T wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:10 pmlmgtfyGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:33 pm
They mentioned this on the news as well, but banned by who? FIFA? The FA? If you don't have a governing body that caters for you, one can and should be set up. I don't think there would have been an actual legal ban (expect maybe in places like Saudi Arabia).
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
For Once I am right.
Didnt know it was for 50 years though.
In another 50 years mixed football will be commonplace which will please the transgender community.
I think the catalyst will likely be the eventual outlawing of heading a football which can cause dementia.
This will drastically change the dynamics of the game.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... hn-coleman
Didnt know it was for 50 years though.
In another 50 years mixed football will be commonplace which will please the transgender community.
I think the catalyst will likely be the eventual outlawing of heading a football which can cause dementia.
This will drastically change the dynamics of the game.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... hn-coleman
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Is it right that male footballers earn up to 100x more than female footballers? How much more should they earn? Should pay be equalised? Justify your answer (10 points)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62378095
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62378095
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
The reason male footballers earn so much more than female footballers is the amount of money that men's football generates, vs. women's. In the above article it uses Man City as an example where the men's team player wages account for around 62% of turnover, while their women's team player wages actually equate to around 114% of turnover.
That being said, wages in (men's) football are absolutely fucked. Increasing wages are likely driving increased money in football more than vice versa, which leads to the consumer being screwed over as prices of match tickets, TV subscriptions, merchandise, etc. continue to rise. Not sure how that can be fixed. A salary cap alone wouldn't completely work and would have to be applied unilaterally at many levels in many countries for it to work at all, and that seems very unlikely to be agreed upon.
At least a lot of Football Federations, including England and USA, ensure their International teams receive the same match fee regardless of sex. And hopefully the interest in Women's Euros 2022 will increase interest in domestic women's football and help close the gap that way.
That being said, wages in (men's) football are absolutely fucked. Increasing wages are likely driving increased money in football more than vice versa, which leads to the consumer being screwed over as prices of match tickets, TV subscriptions, merchandise, etc. continue to rise. Not sure how that can be fixed. A salary cap alone wouldn't completely work and would have to be applied unilaterally at many levels in many countries for it to work at all, and that seems very unlikely to be agreed upon.
At least a lot of Football Federations, including England and USA, ensure their International teams receive the same match fee regardless of sex. And hopefully the interest in Women's Euros 2022 will increase interest in domestic women's football and help close the gap that way.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
But the reason the men's game generates so much more money is a result of decades of sexism - the women's game simply hasn't had the opportunity to flourish in the same way as the men's game. It's catch 22 - the men's game is a money spinner so gets almost all the TV coverage - practically the only time women's football is shown is when there's nothing interesting (i.e. nothing) to watch in the men's game.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
By the way, I think the right thing to do would have been for the clubs who owned the grounds to collectively stand up against the FA and just say "Actually, we will be having women's games here." The FA wouldn't have been able to sanction all of them. It would have been a case of the FA giving in or becoming an obsolete organisation.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:54 pmOK, thanks for that.Fiona T wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:10 pmlmgtfyGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:33 pm
They mentioned this on the news as well, but banned by who? FIFA? The FA? If you don't have a governing body that caters for you, one can and should be set up. I don't think there would have been an actual legal ban (expect maybe in places like Saudi Arabia).
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
On the pay thing - it's pure capitalism. Market forces dictate the wages and until the women's game gains as much traction as the men's, the wages won't be the same. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this, as Callum says, so much would have to change at so many levels to make things even close to equal. In any case, if I was put in charge of any equalisation programme, I don't think the women would really be gaining from it particularly anyway. It would be the men losing!
But you'd probably be fighting a very steep uphill battle to makes things actually equal, rather than just closer. Even in tennis, where the women's game gets far more equal coverage than in most other sports, women still get paid less.
But you'd probably be fighting a very steep uphill battle to makes things actually equal, rather than just closer. Even in tennis, where the women's game gets far more equal coverage than in most other sports, women still get paid less.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Good point. To be honest I don't really know anything about the sort of thing referred to above in this thread (the FA outlawing the women's game). There's certainly a case for some sort of reparations to be paid from the men's game to the women's. The extent of those reparations will depend on the scale of the oppression the men's game has imposed upon the women's historically (plus the disadvantage the women's game will naturally have faced from the historical oppression of women in society more generally). But as alluded to above, two major things will have to happen for their ever to be truly sustainable parity in wages at club level between men's and women's football:Fiona T wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:07 pm But the reason the men's game generates so much more money is a result of decades of sexism - the women's game simply hasn't had the opportunity to flourish in the same way as the men's game. It's catch 22 - the men's game is a money spinner so gets almost all the TV coverage - practically the only time women's football is shown is when there's nothing interesting (i.e. nothing) to watch in the men's game.
1) Interest in the women's game to greatly increase to compete with interest in the men's
2) Wages in the men's game to be brought under control
And those are both very big problems that won't be solved by simply redistributing the money from the men's game to the women's.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Although on some less optimistic notes:
1) if the above article's example of Manchester City's 62% (men's) vs 114% (women's) wage spend is both correct and representative of the game as a whole, it appears the women's game is already having a far higher proportion of its revenue allocated to wages than the men's game, so you could say reparations are already being paid, and it isn't doing much.
2) while media coverage, etc, play a big role in perception, the women's game will struggle to ever be as big as the men's game for as long as the standard is substantially lower. And, unfortunately, I can't see that changing any time soon, if ever.
1) if the above article's example of Manchester City's 62% (men's) vs 114% (women's) wage spend is both correct and representative of the game as a whole, it appears the women's game is already having a far higher proportion of its revenue allocated to wages than the men's game, so you could say reparations are already being paid, and it isn't doing much.
2) while media coverage, etc, play a big role in perception, the women's game will struggle to ever be as big as the men's game for as long as the standard is substantially lower. And, unfortunately, I can't see that changing any time soon, if ever.
Mark Deeks wrote:Callum Todd looks like a young Ted Bundy.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Another thing is that you can't really force this sort of equality into what is a capitalist enterprise by necessity. Football is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it. It's not an essential service like doctors that we would need regardless of our preferences. And the elephant in the room is that in most sports generally, a likely big part of the reason why people prefer to watch men's sport is that people consider it to be the true pinnacle as men are generally stronger physically and women wouldn't be able to compete on an equal footing.
Of course, you could make arguments against this. People don't consider cheetah racing the true pinnacle of sprint competition just because they are objectively faster than humans. And higher objective standard doesn't necessarily mean more entertaining.
I'm all for giving the women's game the same opportunity to shine as the men's. But ultimately people will then vote with their wallets.
Edit - And I don't necessarily see this as such a bad thing. I'm less worried about who gets paid more out of professional sports stars than I am about people who aren't professional sports stars who are struggling to make ends meet. I don't believe anyone has an entitlement to be rich. And people in other sports generally get paid much less because their sports aren't as popular. I don't think we should be trying to force equality among different sports, and as men and women compete in separate football tournaments they are to all intents and purposes different sports that have to make themselves popular to bring the money in. We shouldn't just be obsessing over what goes on in football among people who get paid much better than most people anyway.
Of course, you could make arguments against this. People don't consider cheetah racing the true pinnacle of sprint competition just because they are objectively faster than humans. And higher objective standard doesn't necessarily mean more entertaining.
I'm all for giving the women's game the same opportunity to shine as the men's. But ultimately people will then vote with their wallets.
Edit - And I don't necessarily see this as such a bad thing. I'm less worried about who gets paid more out of professional sports stars than I am about people who aren't professional sports stars who are struggling to make ends meet. I don't believe anyone has an entitlement to be rich. And people in other sports generally get paid much less because their sports aren't as popular. I don't think we should be trying to force equality among different sports, and as men and women compete in separate football tournaments they are to all intents and purposes different sports that have to make themselves popular to bring the money in. We shouldn't just be obsessing over what goes on in football among people who get paid much better than most people anyway.
Last edited by Gavin Chipper on Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
The comedian Bill Burr said it best when he spoke about WNBA players wanting equal wages.Fiona T wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:41 pm Is it right that male footballers earn up to 100x more than female footballers? How much more should they earn? Should pay be equalised? Justify your answer (10 points)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62378095
He said when you play to full houses week in week out then you can justify it.
So i guess they should get paid based on gate receipts and normal league games average a 10th of the mens
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
It still irks me that they don't play best of 5 setsGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:46 pm On the pay thing - it's pure capitalism. Market forces dictate the wages and until the women's game gains as much traction as the men's, the wages won't be the same. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this, as Callum says, so much would have to change at so many levels to make things even close to equal. In any case, if I was put in charge of any equalisation programme, I don't think the women would really be gaining from it particularly anyway. It would be the men losing!
But you'd probably be fighting a very steep uphill battle to makes things actually equal, rather than just closer. Even in tennis, where the women's game gets far more equal coverage than in most other sports, women still get paid less.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
But it's a vicious circle - give it the hype and coverage that the men's game gets and gate receipts go up. Hopefully this win will be the start of greater popularity. MrT's Reading season ticket doesn't cover the women's team games - that's a shame. How about Saturday afternoon games played back to back - ticket holders can stay for both!Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:49 pmThe comedian Bill Burr said it best when he spoke about WNBA players wanting equal wages.Fiona T wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:41 pm Is it right that male footballers earn up to 100x more than female footballers? How much more should they earn? Should pay be equalised? Justify your answer (10 points)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62378095
He said when you play to full houses week in week out then you can justify it.
So i guess they should get paid based on gate receipts and normal league games average a 10th of the mens
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
That's a great solution as playing in big stadiums on seperated days will be extremely costly without a full stadiumFiona T wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:29 pmBut it's a vicious circle - give it the hype and coverage that the men's game gets and gate receipts go up. Hopefully this win will be the start of greater popularity. MrT's Reading season ticket doesn't cover the women's team games - that's a shame. How about Saturday afternoon games played back to back - ticket holders can stay for both!Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:49 pmThe comedian Bill Burr said it best when he spoke about WNBA players wanting equal wages.Fiona T wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:41 pm Is it right that male footballers earn up to 100x more than female footballers? How much more should they earn? Should pay be equalised? Justify your answer (10 points)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62378095
He said when you play to full houses week in week out then you can justify it.
So i guess they should get paid based on gate receipts and normal league games average a 10th of the mens
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
I see THE Mayor of London has been slagging off theme London clubs D for not playing ladies games in their stadiuns
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Yep, great idea. I can imagine the groundskeepers and coaches getting a bit antsy about the pitch being used twice back to back but that should be manageable especially at elite level with all the technology they have to maintain and renew the pitches. The rugby pitches get a fair hammering at Magic Weekend and nobody complains. Motorsports does a similar thing with other categories such as F3, F2, and the W Series taking place on the same track on the same weekend as the F1 races so all the live spectators see them all, and many TV viewers catch some of the action as well.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:29 amThat's a great solution as playing in big stadiums on seperated days will be extremely costly without a full stadiumFiona T wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:29 pm But it's a vicious circle - give it the hype and coverage that the men's game gets and gate receipts go up. Hopefully this win will be the start of greater popularity. MrT's Reading season ticket doesn't cover the women's team games - that's a shame. How about Saturday afternoon games played back to back - ticket holders can stay for both!
Mark Deeks wrote:Callum Todd looks like a young Ted Bundy.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Someone's going to have to fill in a few gaps for me. Maybe Mr T?
Should Reading Women get paid the same as Reading Men, or considerably more? Because Reading Men are paid a fraction of what the men's teams are paid at the other clubs in the WSL. Do season-ticket holders want an extra two hours of entertainment, and are they prepared to pay extra for it? If the budget for the men's team goes down, might relegation follow? What will happen to Lewes?
PS Sorry, another point. If you tack a women's game on to a men's game at a sold-out Premier League game, what happens to the actual supporters of the women's team?
Should Reading Women get paid the same as Reading Men, or considerably more? Because Reading Men are paid a fraction of what the men's teams are paid at the other clubs in the WSL. Do season-ticket holders want an extra two hours of entertainment, and are they prepared to pay extra for it? If the budget for the men's team goes down, might relegation follow? What will happen to Lewes?
PS Sorry, another point. If you tack a women's game on to a men's game at a sold-out Premier League game, what happens to the actual supporters of the women's team?
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
There would have to be a suitable gap between each game to clear the stadiumDavid Williams wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:59 am Someone's going to have to fill in a few gaps for me. Maybe Mr T?
Should Reading Women get paid the same as Reading Men, or considerably more? Because Reading Men are paid a fraction of what the men's teams are paid at the other clubs in the WSL. Do season-ticket holders want an extra two hours of entertainment, and are they prepared to pay extra for it? If the budget for the men's team goes down, might relegation follow? What will happen to Lewes?
PS Sorry, another point. If you tack a women's game on to a men's game at a sold-out Premier League game, what happens to the actual supporters of the women's team?
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Think this idea needs a bit of fine-tuning.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:17 pm There would have to be a suitable gap between each game to clear the stadium
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Double headers are a regular feature in irish sports. Two GAA matches are often played back to back in the same stadium. In 2019 the Irish soccer equivalent of the FA Cup had both the men's and women's final one after the other. The women's match kicked off at noon and the men's match kicked off at 3.30. It didn't do much for attendance for the women's match unfortunately with only around 2000 spectators but the men's match would have only had about 20000 in a stadium of 50000 capacity. Our national league isn't as popular in our own country compared to the Premier league. And that's more down to promotion and facilities rather than quality on the pitch. People who haven't even been to a game use the quality as an excuse.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
It is changing. Go and watch the semi finals of the women's world cup from a decade ago and compare the quality to this tournament. It's night and day.Callum Todd wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:34 pm Although on some less optimistic notes:
2) while media coverage, etc, play a big role in perception, the women's game will struggle to ever be as big as the men's game for as long as the standard is substantially lower. And, unfortunately, I can't see that changing any time soon, if ever.
However the standard will never be the same. I read that strength for strength, women's football is the equivalent of men's football being played with a basketball. So, it will never be directly comparable, in the same way that women's tennis players don't move as fast as the men. But it's (arguably) an equal spectacle.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
There's no practical reason whatever why there shouldn't be a women's game in a Premier League stadium.
But Premier League games are virtually sold out anyway. Season-ticket holders are not going to agree readily to paying extra, and they're going to take even less kindly to being excluded altogether, and some would have to be. Because if the two games are being treated equally, then the season-ticket holders for the women's team have an equal right to be in the stadium. Whether they would want to when they see the price of their ticket going up tenfold, is another question.
But Premier League games are virtually sold out anyway. Season-ticket holders are not going to agree readily to paying extra, and they're going to take even less kindly to being excluded altogether, and some would have to be. Because if the two games are being treated equally, then the season-ticket holders for the women's team have an equal right to be in the stadium. Whether they would want to when they see the price of their ticket going up tenfold, is another question.
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Re: The C4C Football Thread
Another thing that's come out of this is that they're hoping there will be more opportunities for girls to play football at school. But this is all working from the assumption that football is the best sport and it's what everyone should be doing anyway. I would have gladly taken up any opportunity to play less football when I was at school. And if you do more of one sport, you'll be doing less of another anyway. So it's a zero sum game. Stop the football obsession everyone.
Also, not everyone is good at sports generally anyway, most of which require the same basic co-ordination skills. They talk about the country producing loads of really unfit people, but just having team sports at school will leave out the weaker sports players, as they will basically just be standing around at the edge of the pitch doing nothing. They need to focus more on actual fitness so that individuals are all doing specific exercises (as well as perhaps some team sports, but mainly for those that will actually get something out of it rather than just expecting everyone to do it for their entire school lives), which could perhaps include running. Almost everyone can get something out of running and even become quite good at it.
Anyway, topic derailment over. As you were.
Also, not everyone is good at sports generally anyway, most of which require the same basic co-ordination skills. They talk about the country producing loads of really unfit people, but just having team sports at school will leave out the weaker sports players, as they will basically just be standing around at the edge of the pitch doing nothing. They need to focus more on actual fitness so that individuals are all doing specific exercises (as well as perhaps some team sports, but mainly for those that will actually get something out of it rather than just expecting everyone to do it for their entire school lives), which could perhaps include running. Almost everyone can get something out of running and even become quite good at it.
Anyway, topic derailment over. As you were.