Politics in General

[Ian Volante]

The fact that you think that is what's really sad.

Thanks Mark, you've saved me a lot of what feels like unnecessary effort to say these things.

As a family member said when the equal-marriage bill passed, with a slight paraphrasing, "Ireland really grew up today".

[Mark James]

The fact that you think that is what's really sad.

Thanks Mark, you've saved me a lot of what feels like unnecessary effort to say these things.

As a family member said when the equal-marriage bill passed, with a slight paraphrasing, "Ireland really grew up today".

No worries Ian, your thanks is much appreciated.

There's a lot I'm not happy about with Ireland and our current government, and I'm no fan of blind patriotism or the concept of being proud of one's country but between the marriage equality and the abortion referendum, they were great days to celebrate and give ourselves a wee pat on the back.

[Marc Meakin]

The fact that you think that is what's really sad.

Thanks Mark, you've saved me a lot of what feels like unnecessary effort to say these things.

As a family member said when the equal-marriage bill passed, with a slight paraphrasing, "Ireland really grew up today".

No worries Ian, your thanks is much appreciated.

There's a lot I'm not happy about with Ireland and our current government, and I'm no fan of blind patriotism or the concept of being proud of one's country but between the marriage equality and the abortion referendum, they were great days to celebrate and give ourselves a wee pat on the back.

Is contraception still a hot topic though?

[Ian Volante]

Thanks Mark, you've saved me a lot of what feels like unnecessary effort to say these things.

As a family member said when the equal-marriage bill passed, with a slight paraphrasing, "Ireland really grew up today".

No worries Ian, your thanks is much appreciated.

There's a lot I'm not happy about with Ireland and our current government, and I'm no fan of blind patriotism or the concept of being proud of one's country but between the marriage equality and the abortion referendum, they were great days to celebrate and give ourselves a wee pat on the back.

Is contraception still a hot topic though?

I suspect it is for stronger-adhering Catholics, not so much otherwise. That said, I don't live there, so I don't pick up on the nuances of public debate; however I get the impression that there are bigger things to worry about most of the time for most people.

[Gavin Chipper]

The old cartoons of Mohmammed thing has made the news again.

[Marc Meakin]

The old cartoons of Mohmammed thing has made the news again.

I nearly lost my job during the Charlie Hebdo terroism
I suggested that muslims lightened up.
2 fellow employees complained to my supervisor and i was reprimanded

[Ian Volante]

The old cartoons of Mohmammed thing has made the news again.

My old school, that, although now it's an academy, it's trying desperately to trade on its reputation as far as I can tell.

The complaint was made in the regular way by parents contacting the school directly, the people at the gates were a rent-a-mob drummed up later, my contacts tell me. I suspect that much was obvious anyway.

[Gavin Chipper]

I'm not reading the whole 258-page thing, but the findings of the race report are interesting.

[Gavin Chipper]

Anyway, on that, while you obviously shouldn't take the report's findings as the final objective truth, I think it's good that it is fighting against the worrying trend that for emotive subjects, statistical and scientific evidence isn't needed when we have a load of anecdotes.

It's not right to conclude that the whole country is systemically racist (or indeed sexist) without proper analysis.

And terms like "white privilege" (and "whitesplaining" and indeed "mansplaining") are lazy ways of not having to engage with the actual points people make.

[Mark James]

The fact the report exists is evidence of systemic racism.

[Gavin Chipper]

They made the report to investigate whether the prima facie evidence had a more solid grounding, yes. And there is systemic racism, but more so in some areas than others.

[Mark James]

No. They made the report to affirm a preordained stance that Britain is not institutionally racist and they did so with cherry picked data as well as a misunderstanding and frankly strawmanning concept of what systemic racism is. The report has been criticised by actual historians and academics who have been using statistical and scientific evidence to measure the effects of systemic racism for years. The idea that these concepts are built on anecdotes is a myth.

Also, can you give an example of a point someone might make that you feel is lazily dismissed using the term "white privilege". Do you think white privilege isn't a thing?

[Gavin Chipper]

Also, can you give an example of a point someone might make that you feel is lazily dismissed using the term "white privilege". Do you think white privilege isn't a thing?

Not off the top of my head, but I could let you know next time it comes up.

It depends on what you mean by a "thing". I just don't think it's a good term for anything that exists even though you could call having less racism against you "white privilege". It sort of implies that it's some sort of "extra bonus thing" that perhaps people don't deserve rather than the baseline that everyone should expect. Edit - It's racism that's the "thing".

[Marc Meakin]

Someone my age is very often guilty of 'unconcious bias'
Funnily enough its mainly due to being chivalrous lie holding open doors for a woman or offering to carry something that looks heavy.
Also casual racism crops up.
But basically that applies to anyone who watched and enjoyed the likes of Love Thy Neighbour, Rising Damp abd Mind Your Language, in the 1970s

[Gavin Chipper]

It just won't go away. Are Boris Johnson's days numbered?

[Rhys Benjamin]

Well, given we already know that:

- the civil service have a history of leaking and are untrustworthy
- Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings were pushing for a lockdown in September
- Boris has flat-out denied it on camera

I think we can put this one to bed. It stinks of a civil service stitch-up to me. And if you think that wouldn't happen, remember plebgate, when the Met tried to stitch up the chief whip, so it can happen.

There'll almost certainly be an inquiry.

[Phil H]

I reckon Johnson did say it, given that:

- my horoscope today said to be wary of those with too much influence over my life
- horoscopes are generally trustworthy
- Richard Dawkins doesn't believe in horoscopes and he's getting more unhinged by the day

And if you don't believe me about horoscopes, well, the other day it said my life was going to take a turn for the better, and sure enough, when I needed my drink put through the self-service till at Sainsbury's that evening, it was the hottest member of staff that served me.

[Marc Meakin]

I reckon Johnson did say it, given that:

- my horoscope today said to be wary of those with too much influence over my life
- horoscopes are generally trustworthy
- Richard Dawkins doesn't believe in horoscopes and he's getting more unhinged by the day

And if you don't believe me about horoscopes, well, the other day it said my life was going to take a turn for the better, and sure enough, when I needed my drink put through the self-service till at Sainsbury's that evening, it was the hottest member of staff that served me.

Horoscopes are bollocks.
Mind you, you should expect me to say that, me being a Taurus and all

[Gavin Chipper]

I watch Boris Johnson through a horrorscope.

[Ian Volante]

Well, given we already know that:

- the civil service are untrustworthy

As a member of HM Civil Service, bugger off with your sweeping nonsense, frankly.

[Gavin Chipper]

Well, given we already know that:

- the civil service have a history of leaking and are untrustworthy
- Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings were pushing for a lockdown in September
- Boris has flat-out denied it on camera

I think we can put this one to bed. It stinks of a civil service stitch-up to me. And if you think that wouldn't happen, remember plebgate, when the Met tried to stitch up the chief whip, so it can happen.

There'll almost certainly be an inquiry.

Remember it's the refurbishment thing as well, so he's under attack from two angles at the same time.

Well, given we already know that:

- the civil service are untrustworthy

As a member of HM Civil Service, bugger off with your sweeping nonsense, frankly.

Boris Johnson is more untrustworthy in any case.

[Marc Meakin]

I bet he wished that he'd put his foot down on using John Lewis furniture

[Rhys Benjamin]

Well, given we already know that:

- the civil service are untrustworthy

As a member of HM Civil Service, bugger off with your sweeping nonsense, frankly.

They have form.

[Rhys Benjamin]

With Boris now having, very clearly, said "no" to the bodies comment in the House, surely that settles it. You can't knowingly lie to the house - everyone knows that. The government also know that if he is dragged back to apologise, it will be more humiliating. If you're going to lie to the House, you obfuscate and don't give a straight answer. You don't say "no" outright.

The BBC have now retracted the Dyson story from last week, but a lie has gone halfway around the world before the truth has had a chance to put its pants on. Smear first, report facts later.

[Ian Volante]

Well, given we already know that:

- the civil service are untrustworthy

As a member of HM Civil Service, bugger off with your sweeping nonsense, frankly.

They have form.

I refer you to the word 'sweeping'. We aren't all leaking, in fact the vast majority of us are fair and balanced in our dealings, having signed up to the Civil Service code, Official Secrets Act etc etc.

It may suit your agenda to tar us all, but stick to the individuals rather than the lot of us, thanks.

[Mark James]

I don't care whether Boris said he would let the bodies pile up or not. I care that he actually let the bodies pile up.

[Mark James]

Following the recent election results Corbyn needs to do the decent thing and step down as the former leader of the Labour Party.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Shaun totally deserves to win - London needs a fresh start, after all - but if he does it will be the single most shocking thing I've ever seen in politics.

[Gavin Chipper]

Shaun totally deserves to win - London needs a fresh start, after all - but if he does it will be the single most shocking thing I've ever seen in politics.

Zero context here.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Shaun totally deserves to win - London needs a fresh start, after all - but if he does it will be the single most shocking thing I've ever seen in politics.

Zero context here.

"Shaun". "London".

Have a guess. Go on.

[Gavin Chipper]

Shaun totally deserves to win - London needs a fresh start, after all - but if he does it will be the single most shocking thing I've ever seen in politics.

Zero context here.

"Shaun". "London".

Have a guess. Go on.

I guessed it was the London Mayor thing but I had no idea who was standing. Someone called Shaun for the Tories it seems. Bailey apparently.

[Rhys Benjamin]

And herein lies the problem we have been battling for years.

In 2008 and 2012 everybody knew who Boris Johnson was. Even in 2016 everyone knew who Zac Goldsmith was. Even though we picked Shaun in 2018, we have struggled to get his name into the media, not helped by Sadiq Khan's seemingly nightly slot on BBC London whereas Shaun has had to scrap for every bit of airtime we can get for him. Only once purdah started did things get a bit better in this regard, but when the BBC seemingly fails to acknowledge your candidate, as the second-biggest party in the last election (2016), for 2.5 years, what can you do?

[Callum Todd]

I would support Shaun Murphy for Mayor of London.

[Mark James]

I would support Shaun Murphy for Mayor of London.

Have you ever seen Shaun Murphy and Count Binface in the same room? Hmm

[Marc Meakin]

Following the recent election results Corbyn needs to do the decent thing and step down as the former leader of the Labour Party.

Socialism is dead in the water the most famous one was crucified over 2000 years ago and Foot and Kinnock was crucified by the press.
To make matters worse we have a generation of voters born after Thatcher ruined the north.
See the by-election win for the Tories in Hartlepool for your proof.

Corbyn will not shake the ' racist' tag and wouldnt be welcomed back into the labour fold.
Lets be honest the last labour government was really Tory lite anyway.

[Marc Meakin]

Shaun totally deserves to win - London needs a fresh start, after all - but if he does it will be the single most shocking thing I've ever seen in politics.

Next to the Tories winning Hartlepool for the first time since 1974

[Mark James]

Following the recent election results Corbyn needs to do the decent thing and step down as the former leader of the Labour Party.

Socialism is dead in the water the most famous one was crucified over 2000 years ago and Foot and Kinnock was crucified by the press.
To make matters worse we have a generation of voters born after Thatcher ruined the north.
See the by-election win for the Tories in Hartlepool for your proof.

Corbyn will not shake the ' racist' tag and wouldnt be welcomed back into the labour fold.
Lets be honest the last labour government was really Tory lite anyway.

So you did realise that was joke about how Corbyn is being blamed for Labour's current disaster yeah?

What Hartlepool shows is that Corbyn's Labour was more popular than Starmer's. If the last Labour government was tory lite, the current iteration is tory. So why would anyone vote for them ahead of the tories. The tory share of the vote this time around wasn't much more than what they got previous times they came second. People didn't switch from Labour to Conservative they just didn't vote Labour.

[Marc Meakin]

Or there is something to be said when the government has been paying 11 million people their wages for the past year

[Gavin Chipper]

What do people think of Nicola Sturgeon's claim that another independence referendum is a matter of when - not if? She's quite clear that it's the "democratic wishes of the Scottish people" to have this referendum. But is it so clear cut? The SNP won 64 out of 129 seats - just short of half of them - but using the 8 seats from the Greens - who also support a referendum - that gives them a majority. However, the Scottish Parliament alone does not decide on whether there is to be a referendum and a majority of seats desn't equal a majority of votes, so merely having a majority of seats isn't enough to a) force it through or b) claim that it is the democratic will of the Scottish people.

So what about the votes? According to this:

On the constituency vote, the three main parties that were backing Scotland staying in the UK won 50.4% of the vote. But on the list vote it was the three main parties that were supporting independence that were narrowly ahead with 50.1%.

Actually, I don't know how they vote in Scotland. I thought it was just single transferable vote, but from that it seems not. It appears they use the Additional Member System.

Well, it seems that from the vote it's not clear either way, and when you add in the fact that people weren't just voting on whether they wanted a another referendum, it's even less clear. You could argue either way for whether a referendum should happen, but it's definitely not as clear cut as Nicola Sturgeon likes to think it is.

[Marc Meakin]

I think if Sturgeon can get a referendum on having a referendum and wins then she has an argunent to present to Westminster/ law courts

[Ian Volante]

Well, it seems that from the vote it's not clear either way, and when you add in the fact that people weren't just voting on whether they wanted a another referendum, it's even less clear. You could argue either way for whether a referendum should happen, but it's definitely not as clear cut as Nicola Sturgeon likes to think it is.

Well it wasn't a referendum, so it's easy to argue the point either way. A common trope however is to equate certain parties as a monolith either in support or against independence, which isn't true in any case. A fair assumption I think is that you count the seats of parties with independence on their manifesto, but I've no doubt that there are Green voters who don't necessarily support independence, but held their nose on the matter knowing that their vote would also support that agenda.

[Rhys Benjamin]

The Scotland Act is very clear that the power to hold a referendum lies with the British government. This is why the 2014 referendum happened, because David Cameron agreed to it (Edinburgh Agreement). If it were me I would put an "not before x" date on it, and not rule it out altogether, but equally, kick it into the long grass. Not before 2034 for me.

You have to bear in mind that the catalyst for the 2014 referendum was the SNP majority in 2011: they did not get an overall majority in 2016 or 2021.

[Gavin Chipper]

Well it wasn't a referendum, so it's easy to argue the point either way.

Yep, they should have a referendum on whether to have a referendum.

[Ian Volante]

The Scotland Act is very clear that the power to hold a referendum lies with the British government. This is why the 2014 referendum happened, because David Cameron agreed to it (Edinburgh Agreement). If it were me I would put an "not before x" date on it, and not rule it out altogether, but equally, kick it into the long grass. Not before 2034 for me.

You have to bear in mind that the catalyst for the 2014 referendum was the SNP majority in 2011: they did not get an overall majority in 2016 or 2021.

Why not have one soon though? Put it in writing if a limitation on follow-ups is desired. It's not a one-party issue.

[Fiona T]

Why not have one soon though?

Referendums on issues like this have become hugely divisive, with family and friends falling out over them. Personally I hope we are never asked to vote on another Brexit type issue - and I imagine Scottish independence is even more divisive.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Also, "once in a generation" was a central tenet of the 2014 referendum.

[Mark James]

Maybe the 2014 referendum was at the end of a generation and the next referendum will be at the start of a new generation.

[Gavin Chipper]

Also, "once in a generation" was a central tenet of the 2014 referendum.

Wasn't that more of a warning than a promise though? Like "Look, we've got to get this right because we won't get another chance for a generation." A bit like "If these two countries don't start acting more diplomatically towards each other, there'll be a war." "Where was that war you promised?"

Referendums on issues like this have become hugely divisive, with family and friends falling out over them. Personally I hope we are never asked to vote on another Brexit type issue - and I imagine Scottish independence is even more divisive.

Yes, the whole Brexit thing was and is an absolute shitshow. And of course the same would happen with Scottish independence. It would go on for ages after the vote with people arguing about what independence really meant just like with Brexit.

[Ian Volante]

Also, "once in a generation" was a central tenet of the 2014 referendum.

Politicians say things. Doesn't mean much unless it's down in writing. Even then...

[Ian Volante]

Yes, the whole Brexit thing was and is an absolute shitshow. And of course the same would happen with Scottish independence. It would go on for ages after the vote with people arguing about what independence really meant just like with Brexit.

Those arguments are ongoing and have been for years. They just don't surface at a UK level so often.

[Noel Mc]

A generally accepted view over here is there will be a United Ireland vote within the next 10/15 years.

If it were to happen now, it would be a no. 15 years, I'd say it would be a yes. Anything between now and then, who knows.

If you thought the Brexit vote was bad...

[Rhys Benjamin]

Of course, the alternative is for Ireland to vote to rejoin the United Kingdom...

(I jest, but this was official Sussex TorySoc policy a couple of years ago...)

[Rhys Benjamin]

The BBC know full well what they’re doing here, and it’s appalling. Repeal of the FTPA was something in the manifesto in 2019, after that year showed that the FTPA was keeping in place a government unable to get anything done and couldn’t be removed.

Yet the BBC’s headline here, “Boris Johnson seeks for power to call election at any time”, makes it sound like a power grab and a dictatorship. The headline neglects to omit that the government will reintroduce the Parliament act. Judging by the Twitter replies, the headline’s done its job, as you’ve got people comparing him to Kim Jong-Un.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-57090451

[Ian Volante]

As long as they continue to annoy both sides, I'm happy enough.

[Matt Rutherford]

The BBC is a political Rorschach Test (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_test)

What you see in a story tells you a lot about views on that story. Replace Boris Johnson with Keir Starmer I wonder if there is a problem with it. Also, the Twittersphere comparing Boris to Kim Jong-Un is nowt new I imagine

N.B-Lest I sound like I'm calling anyone out, I'm not. I (a fervent republican) often view the BBC as having a pro-Monarchy bias. Overall, considering the tosh the Americans get, I'm grateful to have something that at least tries and the views of the Beeb make for an interesting comparison.

[Gavin Chipper]

The BBC have lots of biases but it isn't simple left/right. They have a high house price bias (right wing) but also a "woke" bias, seen as left wing.

[Phil H]

a fervent Republican

Deliberate capital R?

[Matt Rutherford]

posting.php?mode=quote&f=6&p=193720#

a fervent Republican

Deliberate capital R?

No, fat finger capital R

I'm this republican-https://www.republic.org.uk/

I assure you not this-I'm a Christian who believes in evolution. I don't think they'd have me

[Matt Rutherford]

The BBC have lots of biases but it isn't simple left/right. They have a high house price bias (right wing) but also a "woke" bias, seen as left wing.

Is it less left-right and more London/South-East centric? Both of those match-London's woke-ness and the South East's obsession with house prices

[Rhys Benjamin]

As long as they continue to annoy both sides, I'm happy enough.

I'd much rather they report accurately, though.