Politics in General

[Marc Meakin]

Goodness me , we are a touchy lot today.
I wanted to illustrate that my neighbour was pissed ( as he frequently is ) and urinated in the street rather than it was a lame excuse for being on the sex offenders register for the more usual reason

[Gavin Chipper]

The witch-hunt continues. Rebecca Long-Bailey has been sacked by Keir Starmer from her shadow cabinet position for sharing an article containing "anti-Semitic conspiracy theory".

In the article, Ms Peake discussed the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

She said: "The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd's neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services."

Regardless of the truth of the article's claim, anti Israeli state actions =/= anti-Semitism. Sure, you can argue that an anti-Semitic person might take indirect jabs like this to go under the radar, but bear in mind that this is doubly indirect since Long-Bailey only shared the article.

And yet in the Robert Jenrick case, Starmer is trying to come across as the balanced guy, wanting to see all the evidence before calling for any resignation.

It's all pretty mental really.

[Mark James]

The Independent now has an editorial praising the decision to sack her. It was an article from their fecking newspaper she shared that led to it. Nonsense.

[Rhys Benjamin]

And Black Lives Matter's UK branch have just ruined everything they've done for the last three weeks by posting the notion Jews don't have a right to self-determination on their Twitter feed, including the rather stupid assertion that British politics is "gagged" when disputing it.

[Marc Meakin]

And Black Lives Matter's UK branch have just ruined everything they've done for the last three weeks by posting the notion Jews don't have a right to self-determination on their Twitter feed, including the rather stupid assertion that British politics is "gagged" when disputing it.

Racism is not about colour.
Jews have always been persecuted and derided and vilified.
The caste system in India is deplorable.
Black lives do indeed matter and the USA needs to wake up.
There is a lot of issues in the UK with regards the treatment of black people , but I don't think that the BLM movement needs to be a worldwide organisation
In the 1970s there were a lot of movements like the anti nazi league that were instrumental in making changes in the UK

[Gavin Chipper]

And Black Lives Matter's UK branch have just ruined everything they've done for the last three weeks by posting the notion Jews don't have a right to self-determination on their Twitter feed, including the rather stupid assertion that British politics is "gagged" when disputing it.

Can you link/quote the specific tweet?

[Rhys Benjamin]

I refuse to share that. You have Google, don't you?

[Callum Todd]

I refuse to share that. You have Google, don't you?

You must have breezed through university. Referencing is for chumps.

[Rhys Benjamin]

I refuse to share that. You have Google, don't you?

You must have breezed through university. Referencing is for chumps.

It's not exactly the same thing as distributing racist material to a Countdown forum, Callum.

[Mark James]

This was the tweet apparently.

"As Israel moves forward with the annexation of the West Bank, and mainstream British politics is gagged of the right to critique Zionism, and Israel’s settler colonial pursuits, we loudly and clearly stand beside our Palestinian comrades. FREE PALESTINE.”

(Sarcasm font) Shocking stuff. (End sarcasm font)

[Rhys Benjamin]

British politics is not gagged of the right to criticise Zionism (Corbyn et al), but it ought to be. "Zionism" is the right of Jewish people of self-determination. Therefore, to deny the existence of Israel on the grounds of it being Zionist is antisemitic unless you're also denying the existence of Pakistan, established for exactly the same reasons merely with "Jewish" replaced for "Muslim".

[Gavin Chipper]

I refuse to share that. You have Google, don't you?

I went to their Twitter page and found a few things about Israel/Palestine, and it was obvious to me that none of the tweets were going to explicitly say what you say they are saying - it would be down to interpretation. So I thought it might just be easier for you to link or quite.

This was the tweet apparently.

"As Israel moves forward with the annexation of the West Bank, and mainstream British politics is gagged of the right to critique Zionism, and Israel’s settler colonial pursuits, we loudly and clearly stand beside our Palestinian comrades. FREE PALESTINE.”

(Sarcasm font) Shocking stuff. (End sarcasm font)

So specifically what is bad about this tweet?

British politics is not gagged of the right to criticise Zionism (Corbyn et al), but it ought to be. "Zionism" is the right of Jewish people of self-determination. Therefore, to deny the existence of Israel on the grounds of it being Zionist is antisemitic unless you're also denying the existence of Pakistan, established for exactly the same reasons merely with "Jewish" replaced for "Muslim".

What is meant here exactly by self-determination?

Well, [urlhttps://www.lexico.com/definition/self-determination]Lexico[/url] defines as:

The process by which a country determines its own statehood and forms its own government.

So I'm guessing from all this that it's not most of the Tweet that you're objecting to, but just the bit about Zionism, which you equate with the Jewish people's right for self-determination, although the dictionary definition defines self-determination in terms of a country rather than a specific group of people within a country. On Zionism:

A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.

This definition is more complex than what you have suggested, although obviously dictionary definitions aren't the beginning and end of it. In any case, it's over to you now Rhys to expand on your position. We've done most of your homework for you up to this point.

[Marc Meakin]

Worth a look.
How current times compare with medieval times.
A lot of baloney , but worth a watch
https://youtu.be/z2RujJ04vxY

[Mark James]

Worth a look.
How current times compare with medieval times.
A lot of baloney , but worth a watch
https://youtu.be/z2RujJ04vxY

Feck. Wish I hadn't clicked on that. The dude is a "taxation is theft" libertarian. My YouTube recommendations are gonna be screwed.

[Gavin Chipper]

Worth a look.
How current times compare with medieval times.
A lot of baloney , but worth a watch
https://youtu.be/z2RujJ04vxY

Feck. Wish I hadn't clicked on that. The dude is a "taxation is theft" libertarian. My YouTube recommendations are gonna be screwed.

I always browse the internet in incognito mode, apart from a few sites where I want to stay signed in. It helps with things like this.

[Callum Todd]

I refuse to share that. You have Google, don't you?

I went to their Twitter page and found a few things about Israel/Palestine, and it was obvious to me that none of the tweets were going to explicitly say what you say they are saying - it would be down to interpretation. So I thought it might just be easier for you to link or quite.

This was the tweet apparently.

"As Israel moves forward with the annexation of the West Bank, and mainstream British politics is gagged of the right to critique Zionism, and Israel’s settler colonial pursuits, we loudly and clearly stand beside our Palestinian comrades. FREE PALESTINE.”

(Sarcasm font) Shocking stuff. (End sarcasm font)

So specifically what is bad about this tweet?

British politics is not gagged of the right to criticise Zionism (Corbyn et al), but it ought to be. "Zionism" is the right of Jewish people of self-determination. Therefore, to deny the existence of Israel on the grounds of it being Zionist is antisemitic unless you're also denying the existence of Pakistan, established for exactly the same reasons merely with "Jewish" replaced for "Muslim".

What is meant here exactly by self-determination?

Well, [urlhttps://www.lexico.com/definition/self-determination]Lexico[/url] defines as:

The process by which a country determines its own statehood and forms its own government.

So I'm guessing from all this that it's not most of the Tweet that you're objecting to, but just the bit about Zionism, which you equate with the Jewish people's right for self-determination, although the dictionary definition defines self-determination in terms of a country rather than a specific group of people within a country. On Zionism:

A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.

This definition is more complex than what you have suggested, although obviously dictionary definitions aren't the beginning and end of it. In any case, it's over to you now Rhys to expand on your position. We've done most of your homework for you up to this point.

Just seen this. It seems Rhys isn't the only one who feels BLM UK's tweets re: Israel/Palestine could be harmful to their reputation and, by association, the cause they are primarily promoting.

Rhys's personal stand on the issue of 'what is (anti-)Zionism?' aside, this does raise an interesting question around the problem with (almost) universally agreeable movements becoming organised into a political entity. Especially when that political organisation names itself after the movement with the universally agreeable name then goes on to make political statements about issues unrelated, or at least not directly related, to the core issue of the movement it was set up to promote.

[Gavin Chipper]

Anyway, I'm going to add a bit more to my thoughts on the Zionism thing.

It seems that Rhys thinks that Jewish people have a right to self determination.

The process by which a country determines its own statehood and forms its own government.

OK, forget the country thing in this particular definition. He thinks that Jewish people have a right to determine their own statehood and form their own government, and that it's anti-Semitic to not think that. Really? Why Jewish people in particular? What about any group of people that get together?

Well Rhys did add the caveat that it's anti-Semitic:

unless you're also denying the existence of Pakistan, established for exactly the same reasons merely with "Jewish" replaced for "Muslim".

Well, I'm not actually denying the existence of Israel (it exists, right?), but sure, there's no reason why Muslims have a particular right to form their own country either.

I don't think that countries should be made on religious grounds. How is is supposed to work in an ideal world? People who aren't of that religion shouldn't live there? What if you're born there, but reject the religion of the state? Should you move out? That's ridiculous. So of course I reject the idea of a Jewish state.

All countries should really be moving towards secularism:

The principle of separation of the state from religious institutions.

(Some people think it's atheism. It isn't.)

[Rhys Benjamin]

unless you're also denying the existence of Pakistan, established for exactly the same reasons merely with "Jewish" replaced for "Muslim".

Well, I'm not actually denying the existence of Israel (it exists, right?), but sure, there's no reason why Muslims have a particular right to form their own country either.

Best save since Gordon Banks. Well done.

The problem is no one who goes "mUh FrEe PaLeStiNe" believes this.

[Mark James]

unless you're also denying the existence of Pakistan, established for exactly the same reasons merely with "Jewish" replaced for "Muslim".

Well, I'm not actually denying the existence of Israel (it exists, right?), but sure, there's no reason why Muslims have a particular right to form their own country either.

Best save since Gordon Banks. Well done.

The problem is no one who goes "mUh FrEe PaLeStiNe" believes this.

What does it mean to say no one? What if I say Free Palestine while also believing Muslims shouldn't have a particular right to form their own country. Am I misunderstanding what it means to say Free Palestine?

[Rhys Benjamin]

I mean, every argument on Israel could equally apply to Pakistan, but it doesn't.

[Mark James]

I mean, every argument on Israel could equally apply to Pakistan, but it doesn't.

In what way does it not?

[Mark James]

https://youtu.be/KAFbpWVO-ow

This is a pretty good video on antisemitism. In fact most of their videos are excellent.

[Gavin Chipper]

The Tories have kicked someone out for beating their preferred candidate in an election. This is hilarious. What a joke of a party.

[Gavin Chipper]

A Tory MP has been arrested for rape, and not been suspended from the party. Apparently he's a former minister and in his 50s - can we narrow it down?

I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of how this is being handled, but people don't normally get anonymity and would normally be suspended, so I'm just wondering what makes this case different.

[Marc Meakin]

The Tory MP from Dover who was suspended after sexual misconduct charges were brought against him was reinstated in order that he could vote during the Brexit votes.
So I'm not surprised that the Tories have done this
Innocent until proven Tory

[Gavin Chipper]

Apparently there are 17 suspects.

if Wikipedia is accurate there are 17 current Tory mps who are male, in their 50s, and have been but are not currently a minister

[Gavin Chipper]

Edit - the name is all over the internet anyway.

[Marc Meakin]

In other news, Mark Francois was very pro-Brexit wasn't he? Mark Francois indeed. Just felt like bringing him up for some reason.

Is he an influencer on social media ?

[Jennifer Steadman]

A Tory MP has been arrested for rape, and not been suspended from the party. Apparently he's a former minister and in his 50s - can we narrow it down?

I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of how this is being handled, but people don't normally get anonymity and would normally be suspended, so I'm just wondering what makes this case different.

I would assume the reason for the media giving the alleged rapist anonymity is to avoid jigsaw identification? Victims of rape and sexual offences get lifetime anonymity (unless they choose to waive it), and the press isn't allowed to do anything that can jeopardise that. That includes 'jigsaw identification' - i.e. providing scraps of information that can be pieced together to identify the person. So for example, if someone was convicted of molesting a child in their family, the newspaper reports would be able to say the name of the person and that they molested a child, but not say that they were a relation/what type of relation they were. Or you could say the family relation, but you then wouldn't be allowed to name the offender. You'd usually go for the former route though.

So if perhaps the victim here worked directly for the MP in question [I know it says 'parliamentary staffer' and doesn't specify this, but that might be a carefully considered phrasing...], then similarly to the latter example: once you identify the MP involved, and know that this person was one of their staffers, it narrows down the victim's identity pretty significantly and - even if you or I couldn't personally name their staffers (or even the MP in a lot of cases) - it would be easy enough to do this online, which is enough for it to be steered clear of. No reason that you would have known this, but for future reference, best not to do it, even if you personally aren't going to try and 'work out' the victim's identity. (I would consider getting the mods to remove the allusions to the MP in question from the thread tbh. I know the name is all over social media, but that doesn't make it a good idea to repeat it.)

That said, I'm not sure how they avoid naming the MP if they are jailed as there would have to be a by-election and everything, and I think you would kind of have to identify them at that point? Our textbook and ethics guidelines didn't really cover this exact scenario. I've seen at least one senior journalist alluding to the identity on Twitter which is pretty irresponsible, so maybe it's not jigsaw identification, but I think it is totally plausible that this is the case.

[Gavin Chipper]

OK cool. It would take Marc to change the quote as well now.

[Marc Meakin]

Re above I have reported my quote to the admin for removal in case of libel.
I remember the honest face tweet saga of a few years ago

[Marc Meakin]

Is he an influencer on social media ?

[Rhys Benjamin]

This is hilariously terrible. Apparently I should be a head chef, a chef, or a cake decorator. Yeah... no. https://beta.nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

This is hilariously terrible. Apparently I should be a head chef, a chef, or a cake decorator. Yeah... no. https://beta.nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/

Well, it worked out my actual job, so...

[Mark James]

Pretty accurate for me too. I don't work in the field but the top suggestion was creative media which is what I got my degree in. It also suggested social work which is kind of what I do. Better get making those cakes Rhys. (What were you hoping it said?)

[Thomas Cappleman]

This is hilariously terrible. Apparently I should be a head chef, a chef, or a cake decorator. Yeah... no. https://beta.nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/

Well, it worked out my actual job, so...

Whereas I (in the same general area) got recommended social care, and then nothing at all when I tried again.

[Fiona T]

I'm off to stunt double school

[Sam Cappleman-Lynes]

Well, it worked out my actual job, so...

Update - about half of my company (who do roughly the same job as me) are getting told they are suited to professional sports, and, in particular, boxing.

[Rhys Benjamin]

It told my mother she should retrain as a vet, and she doesn't even like animals.

[Fred Mumford]

It told my mother she should retrain as a vet, and she doesn't even like animals.

In fairness I can think of no more heartbreaking job for someone who likes animals.

[Noel Mc]

So, what do we think about this whole extension (or lack thereof) of Free School Meals over the holidays?

[Rhys Benjamin]

I don't really get the argument for their extension as a covid measure. With schools now back to normal, why shouldn't FSMs be back to normal? If you want them extended over the holidays forever, that's a separate debate.

[Noel Mc]

I think, in terms of it being a Covid measure, it's probably because a lot of people are struggling (more than normal) financially in the current climate. Similar to financial aid being given to businesses etc. which are struggling.

[Gavin Chipper]

Time for a universal basic imcome...

[Martin Long]

I don't really get the argument for their extension as a covid measure. With schools now back to normal, why shouldn't FSMs be back to normal? If you want them extended over the holidays forever, that's a separate debate.

Don't you think that voting against the school meals is a political own goal for the Tories?

[Fiona T]

On the face of it, the government providing extra support to ensure that kids get a decent meal during a pandemic seems like a good idea. Wales and Scotland seem to think it is.

But whatever your views, it's turned into a(nother) PR disaster for the Tories. For the relatively small cost, it should have been a JFDI.

[Rhys Benjamin]

it's turned into a(nother) PR disaster for the Tories.

Yep. See also: internal market bill. Not that controversial when you look at it in detail.

[Martin Long]

it's turned into a(nother) PR disaster for the Tories.

Yep. See also: internal market bill. Not that controversial when you look at it in detail.

Putting personal opinions aside, I think the free meals will turn out to be much more of a disaster for the Tories than the internal market bill. Judging from what I've seen, it will lose them a lot of votes especially in the Tory gain seats in the North like my constituency.

[Rhys Benjamin]

it's turned into a(nother) PR disaster for the Tories.

Yep. See also: internal market bill. Not that controversial when you look at it in detail.

Putting personal opinions aside, I think the free meals will turn out to be much more of a disaster for the Tories than the internal market bill. Judging from what I've seen, it will lose them a lot of votes especially in the Tory gain seats in the North like my constituency.

On the other hand, Martin, we are 4 years away from the next election and this isn't (unlike Clegg) actively breaking a promise they made.

[Callum Todd]

On the face of it, the government providing extra support to ensure that kids get a decent meal during a pandemic seems like a good idea. Wales and Scotland seem to think it is.

But whatever your views, it's turned into a(nother) PR disaster for the Tories. For the relatively small cost, it should have been a JFDI.

Perhaps my favourite of Fiona's acronyms so far

it's turned into a(nother) PR disaster for the Tories.

Yep. See also: internal market bill. Not that controversial when you look at it in detail.

Saving for posterity for the next time someone accuses Rhys of not acknowledging when 'his side' have made a mistake.

[Gavin Chipper]

Jeremy Corbyn has been suspended from the Labour Party because of his reaction to the anti-Semitism report.

[Mark James]

So do you reckon Starmer suspended Corbyn to distract from the fact he hit a cyclist with his car or do you reckon he intentionally hit the cyclist for fun knowing it wouldn't get much attention because he was suspending Corbyn?

[Gavin Chipper]

So do you reckon Starmer suspended Corbyn to distract from the fact he hit a cyclist with his car or do you reckon he intentionally hit the cyclist for fun knowing it wouldn't get much attention because he was suspending Corbyn?

The latter.

[Callum Todd]

Inb4 the cyclist was Jezza.

[Gavin Chipper]

Looking at the odds right now it's looking about 80/20 in favour of Biden over Trump in the US election. However, the winner will not be the leader of the free world, because that's not a thing.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Romney 2024, anyone?

[Mark James]

Romney 2024, anyone?

Eh no.
https://mobile.twitter.com/therecount/s ... 6118041602

Conservatism is a death cult.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Apparently Boris has spoken out against devolution.

I have written about this at University, but also that I wouldn't want to be the politician who speaks out against it.

I love Boris.

[Gavin Chipper]

Apparently Boris has spoken out against devolution.

I have written about this at University, but also that I wouldn't want to be the politician who speaks out against it.

I love Boris.

Apparently so. But:

A Downing Street source: "The PM has always supported devolution, but Tony Blair failed to foresee the rise of separatists in Scotland."Devolution is great - but not when it's used by separatists and nationalists to break up the UK."

Is this enough to love Boris Johnson? That's the question here.

[Gavin Chipper]

On a more serious note, I'm not sure what there is to love about Johnson unless you buy his "loveable buffoon" persona, but surely that wore thin years ago. He has no integrity as a politician whatsoever. He's out of his depth and basically has no principles, doing merely what he thinks is needed to further his career.

Just listen to Owen Jones here.