NHS-worship

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Phil H
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NHS-worship

Post by Phil H »

This might be unpopular but at least it's topical: I find the extent to which the NHS are valorised above almost everything else in this country rather weird and at times sinister.

Yes, its creation was a massive step forward for the UK. Yes, it has been badly neglected and underfunded by recent governments. Yes, it contains many thousands of employees who do their jobs - at times very difficult ones - very well. Yes, the present crisis is underlining our dependence on these people's efforts. Yes, reports of increasing privatisation are worrying.

But why, for example, are its staff considered intrinsically more worthy than those who work in any other form of social care? Or teachers, psychotherapists, trauma counsellors, researchers, human rights lawyers, or even those who work in healthcare through third sector agencies? And perhaps about half the population will at one time or another have had an experience of the NHS being at least unsatisfactory, or worse, but there seems to be a sort of collective amnesia or delusion about this.

I also work for a large public sector organisation and increasingly feel that such organisations are institutionally arrogant by their very nature; I find it hard to believe that the NHS is free of such arrogance. When one thinks of how many problematic or toxic people there were at every school ever, how many more must there be in a workforce of millions?

There's been a popular tweet by Emily Maitlis about how asking challenging questions of the government, far from being inappropriate, is more important than ever in a time of crisis. The power differential between health professionals and patients is of a different nature, but is very real and can lead to considerable suffering - indeed it has done, and unfortunately continues to do so. Making the NHS into our own civic religion, akin to flag-worship in the US, can't be helpful in this respect.

In short, as one of my lecturers said once, I really feel that a lot of people have "thrown away their crap-meters" when it comes to this subject.
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Re: NHS-worship

Post by Marc Meakin »

They have been put upon loads of times in the past.
Maybe they have been over compensated in their treatment but I don't begrudge them anything
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Phil H
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Post by Phil H »

I don't have anything against individual workers unless they've given me a reason to, but it's not uncommon to hear people say things like "after this, they should never have to pay taxes again." Okay, maybe they didn't mean it literally, but still, what the fuck?

Off the top of my head, a friend tells me that his psychiatric consultant once said to him "I'll see you in a month and I don't care if you are suicidal or not". My impression of this friend is that he often misinterprets others' statements and intentions, but will almost certainly be reliable when quoting directly. What will he make of the clapping in the windows?
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Post by Jon O'Neill »

It's what separates us from the animals. It is therefore a huge source of national pride. It's just about the only thing I have any national pride in.
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Re: NHS-worship

Post by Marc Meakin »

I guess Phil H can do a slow hand clap
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Post by Phil H »

Jon O'Neill wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:53 pm It's what separates us from the animals. It is therefore a huge source of national pride. It's just about the only thing I have any national pride in.
I'm embarrassed to say I don't know if it was the first universal healthcare system of its kind - it might well have been - but it's often said that the US is now the only first-world country not to have universal healthcare. So how exceptional is the UK in that respect, really?
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Re: NHS-worship

Post by Phil H »

Marc Meakin wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:58 pm I guess Phil H can do a slow hand clap
I might use that timeslot to get my groceries. Probably the safest time to do so. Maybe that'd even be a better way to honour the NHS than clapping. :lol:
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Post by Gavin Chipper »

This sort of thread is what makes C4C great, regardless of whether one agrees with the specific content. I can't imagine a discussion like this appearing in my Facebook feed without getting shut down immediately.

Anyway - there are lots of aspects to the NHS. So what do people mean when they say it's great? There are lots of doctors and nurses etc. that have a very arrogant and dismissive attitude or generally aren't very good at what they do. Are they to be considered separately from The NHS or they an intrinsic part of it? Obviously there's lots of people who are great at their job as well. There have been cuts due to the Tories that have made it worse - can we say that the NHS isn't very good because of that? Or is The NHS separate from the politicians trying to bring it down? The problem is that whenever anything that you criticise becomes not The NHS, the less and less there is of it left, and it becomes this nebulous entity, devoid of any real meaning.

But what I would say is that the NHS is a great concept, and much better than e.g. the American model where you have to have your own insurance. Funded and run properly, it could be great. But that doesn't mean that in its current form it is great. But criticising the NHS becomes tricky, because people might think you're criticising the concept rather than the specifics, and generally people on the "left" have nothing but praise for it to stay on the safe side and maybe to protect it from the "evil right". But I think there's a lot of groupthink going on there.

As for this clapping thing, I won't be joining in (I tend not to observe these collective things anyway - surprise, surprise), but I'm not going to judge anyone that does. Obviously in this situation NHS workers are putting themselves at risk with the whole coronavirus thing, whereas many other people have got an extended holiday, so maybe many of them do deserve recognition for this. But they're not going to hear me clapping in my house anyway.

Speaking of groupthink, there is a lot of it around this coronavirus thing generally. There is some question over whether my usual running route is open, and people have criticised me for using it, as if Essex County Council's arbitrary decision has any real relationship with whether it's actually safe or not. Also, while I wouldn't advocate to anyone here to break all the "lockdown" rules, they are still open to criticism. We shouldn't just blindly accept that this is the exact set of objectively perfect rules. Also it's not going outside that's dangerous - it's mixing with other people. And I would argue that people who have changed their Facebook profile picture or status to something telling people to stay at home are part of this mindless groupthink.
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Re: NHS-worship

Post by Phil H »

Well, I've opened the windows and I can certainly hear it in my flat, even though I live in a notoriously reserved area of a notoriously reserved city.
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Re: NHS-worship

Post by Marc Meakin »

My step daughter cleans our doctor's surgery.
She enjoyed the adulation.
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Post by Tom S »

I forgot about the hand-clap. A bit embarrassing when it seems like practically everyone in town did it. Hopefully there is another one soon so I can pay my respects.
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I was having a sleep when it happened and woke up as my stepdaughter came through the door
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Post by Callum Todd »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:47 pm This sort of thread is what makes C4C great, regardless of whether one agrees with the specific content. I can't imagine a discussion like this appearing in my Facebook feed without getting shut down immediately.
So true. I'll gladly partake in a moment of communal applause for c4c.
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Post by Phil H »

Marc Meakin wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:49 pm My step daughter cleans our doctor's surgery.
She enjoyed the adulation.
I do quite like the aspect of including people like cleaners and care assistants whose jobs aren't given the same social status. Another line being thrown around a lot at the moment is something like "it should be nurses that we pay big money, not investment bankers". I'm not totally unsympathetic to that sentiment, but we have the economic system we have and I don't think nurses' pay is a particular anomaly if we accept the logic of supply and demand. However, I was naive enough to be surprised that my friend's sister earned about £14k per year for her work in a care home, while I earn £20.5k for things like recording the movements of files, ordering stationery and showing technophobes how to operate a scanner.
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Re: NHS-worship

Post by Phil H »

I might be weakening a little on this; it feels different now that so many of them have been through the mill. But I haven't quite weakened enough to actually join in with the clapping yet.
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Re: NHS-worship

Post by Matt Morrison »

I donate money. And close the curtains when all the neighbours do the fucking clapping.
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Post by Marc Meakin »

I've fucked up 2 wooden spoons so I've stopped too.
Got myself a bell for next week
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Post by Marc Meakin »

[flash=][/flash]
Matt Morrison wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:55 pm I donate money. And close the curtains when all the neighbours do the fucking clapping.
Miserable bastard 😀

I use the opportunity to see who I can slag off that don't bother , then wonder if they have succumbed to Rona.
Or are one of the people we are applauding out to work.
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Post by Andy McGurn »

I am a social worker and my profession never gets recognition but maybe we don’t deserve it. I don’t think it’s for me to judge.

The most notable way in which the pandemic has affected my work is a massive increase in domestic violence incidents often involving children as well as adults. Lockdown has led to higher tension and many very serious incidents.

However I am not gonna ask for recognition and don’t have any issue with those that do want to give it to the NHS workers (of which my wife is one)
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Post by Gavin Chipper »

Andy McGurn wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:12 am I am a social worker and my profession never gets recognition but maybe we don’t deserve it. I don’t think it’s for me to judge.

The most notable way in which the pandemic has affected my work is a massive increase in domestic violence incidents often involving children as well as adults. Lockdown has led to higher tension and many very serious incidents.

However I am not gonna ask for recognition and don’t have any issue with those that do want to give it to the NHS workers (of which my wife is one)
I think you and the NHS workers do deserve recognition for what you do. Certainly my point was about the NHS as a whole and when people talk about how great it is, what aspect of it are they talking about exactly - e.g. the workers, the concept, how it functions as a whole in practice etc.?
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I don't think anyone wants to begrudge the workforce for sure, that's never been an issue. The problem comes with the system, and the media deliberately convolution "a National Health Service" with "the National Health Service". The NHS, at present, is fundamentally flawed through the system of trusts and over-bureaucracy. Around 15% of the NHS budget is spent on administration. In 2016 Lord Carter suggested that £5bn per year could be saved in the health service.

The NHS budget has been increased every year since the mid-60s and has completely become a magic money tree political football by both parties. You'll spend an extra £350m per week (£20bn per year)? Well, we'll spend an extra £24bn per year! Oh really? Then we'll spend £34bn extra!

Where is this money going if it's never "enough"? The population hasn't doubled in 20 years but the money thrown at the NHS has.
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Rhys Benjamin wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:11 pm Where is this money going if it's never "enough"? The population hasn't doubled in 20 years but the money thrown at the NHS has.
Treatments have become more sophisticated and therefore a lot more expensive.
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Rhys Benjamin wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:11 pm I don't think anyone wants to begrudge the workforce for sure, that's never been an issue. The problem comes with the system, and the media deliberately convolution "a National Health Service" with "the National Health Service". The NHS, at present, is fundamentally flawed through the system of trusts and over-bureaucracy. Around 15% of the NHS budget is spent on administration. In 2016 Lord Carter suggested that £5bn per year could be saved in the health service.

The NHS budget has been increased every year since the mid-60s and has completely become a magic money tree political football by both parties. You'll spend an extra £350m per week (£20bn per year)? Well, we'll spend an extra £24bn per year! Oh really? Then we'll spend £34bn extra!

Where is this money going if it's never "enough"? The population hasn't doubled in 20 years but the money thrown at the NHS has.
Saved lives/improved outcomes, you'd hope.
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Post by Marc Meakin »

I have been saying for years that private healthcare for those that can afford it should be encouraged to the point that you would pay less National insurance as an incentive.
Thus keeping the NHS for those that cannot afford it.
A British Obamacare if you like
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Post by Phil H »

I don't think it's necessarily a contradiction to say that the NHS is both underfunded and has aspects of significant inefficiency. But I do agree that it's worth asking more specifically where the money might be spent, rather than simply agreeing that "more money" for "the NHS" = better.
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Jon O'Neill wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:32 pm
Rhys Benjamin wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:11 pm I don't think anyone wants to begrudge the workforce for sure, that's never been an issue. The problem comes with the system, and the media deliberately convolution "a National Health Service" with "the National Health Service". The NHS, at present, is fundamentally flawed through the system of trusts and over-bureaucracy. Around 15% of the NHS budget is spent on administration. In 2016 Lord Carter suggested that £5bn per year could be saved in the health service.

The NHS budget has been increased every year since the mid-60s and has completely become a magic money tree political football by both parties. You'll spend an extra £350m per week (£20bn per year)? Well, we'll spend an extra £24bn per year! Oh really? Then we'll spend £34bn extra!

Where is this money going if it's never "enough"? The population hasn't doubled in 20 years but the money thrown at the NHS has.
Saved lives/improved outcomes, you'd hope.
You would hope so...
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Post by Gavin Chipper »

Does this doubling take into account inflation?
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Only 35 claps till Christmas!
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There is an argument that the best way to get mass compliance with the lock-down etc is to have a very simple message - save the NHS has evolvd to be that message. The weekly noisemaking and associated hagiographising may be over-sentimental claptrap (Britain's still a world-leader in something!), but it does serve a purpose.
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This NHS thing then. Starting in January I've had some symptoms and went to see my GP and had a blood test that came back negative for everything, and I was then referred to a specialist. I got a letter from the department dated 2nd February acknowledging that I'd been referred etc. (it was actually a pretty shit letter and came across as quite dismissive but we'll save that for another day), and saying if I didn't hear anything by 30th March I should contact them. Well that's today. So I rang up and after about half an hour on hold, I was told I would get an appointment in about 5 months. What? The appointment will be in 5 months? No, you'll get the date in 5 months. So were they just planning on ignoring me until then? Because that's pretty stupid anyway. It's much quicker for everyone to just send out a standard letter saying that than have this pointless telephone call.

Anyway, the point of all this is that while the NHS might be a great concept etc., when I'm evaluating the NHS, I have to look at what it is like in practie right now. And the NHS is shit. The NHS is shit. But because of tribal politics, people who consider themselves to be on "the left" feel they can't say that because people conflate the concept with the current actuality.

And yeah, obviously people might come along and say that the NHS saved their life or saved e.g. their father's life when he had cancer. Yes, and that's the minimum it should be doing not to be an absolute catastrophe. But the NHS is meant to be much more comprehensive than that. It's not just about stopping people from dying. People need to be able to lead reasonable lives. And right now, in practice, the NHS is shit.
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How do we improve it though? (assuming the goal is to improve the NHS rather than replace it with something else) Obviously putting more money into it will help but that alone isn't likely to be enough, right? What else?

Edit: My questions are intended as an extension of the thought process of Gavin's post, which I mostly agree with, and not as a counter-argument to it.
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Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:40 pm This NHS thing then. Starting in January I've had some symptoms and went to see my GP and had a blood test that came back negative for everything, and I was then referred to a specialist. I got a letter from the department dated 2nd February acknowledging that I'd been referred etc. (it was actually a pretty shit letter and came across as quite dismissive but we'll save that for another day), and saying if I didn't hear anything by 30th March I should contact them. Well that's today. So I rang up and after about half an hour on hold, I was told I would get an appointment in about 5 months. What? The appointment will be in 5 months? No, you'll get the date in 5 months. So were they just planning on ignoring me until then? Because that's pretty stupid anyway. It's much quicker for everyone to just send out a standard letter saying that than have this pointless telephone call.

Anyway, the point of all this is that while the NHS might be a great concept etc., when I'm evaluating the NHS, I have to look at what it is like in practie right now. And the NHS is shit. The NHS is shit. But because of tribal politics, people who consider themselves to be on "the left" feel they can't say that because people conflate the concept with the current actuality.

And yeah, obviously people might come along and say that the NHS saved their life or saved e.g. their father's life when he had cancer. Yes, and that's the minimum it should be doing not to be an absolute catastrophe. But the NHS is meant to be much more comprehensive than that. It's not just about stopping people from dying. People need to be able to lead reasonable lives. And right now, in practice, the NHS is shit.
My wife had virtually the same letter about an eye problem referral, and what do you know, on the 30th March she received a letter with an appointment for Saturday 9th April at 8:30 am at the eye Clinic. It's not all bad, everywhere.....
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Post by Mark Deeks »

Well I've been waiting 46 weeks now for my eye referral so Ian I'm moving into your house
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You think you are. Guess who I bumped into the other day in Specsavers? etc.
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I was going to say that it would be a waste of time moving to Ian's house anyway because the letter probably said something completely different. But I won't as the same basic joke has already been made now.
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Callum Todd wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:34 pm How do we improve it though? (assuming the goal is to improve the NHS rather than replace it with something else) Obviously putting more money into it will help but that alone isn't likely to be enough, right? What else?

Edit: My questions are intended as an extension of the thought process of Gavin's post, which I mostly agree with, and not as a counter-argument to it.
It's difficult to answer without an in-depth knowledge of all the inner workings of the NHS. More money would mean more equipment and potentially better wages to persuade e.g. nurses to stay in the job. If there's a shortage of doctors in the country generally then money can mean more places at universities to train them but that's a long term thing. Poaching from other countries doesn't consider the other countries.
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Gavin Chipper wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:18 pm
Callum Todd wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:34 pm How do we improve it though? (assuming the goal is to improve the NHS rather than replace it with something else) Obviously putting more money into it will help but that alone isn't likely to be enough, right? What else?

Edit: My questions are intended as an extension of the thought process of Gavin's post, which I mostly agree with, and not as a counter-argument to it.
It's difficult to answer without an in-depth knowledge of all the inner workings of the NHS. More money would mean more equipment and potentially better wages to persuade e.g. nurses to stay in the job. If there's a shortage of doctors in the country generally then money can mean more places at universities to train them but that's a long term thing. Poaching from other countries doesn't consider the other countries.
From my experience (albeit a few years back) one of the major problems is lack of co-ordination - so patients that can't be sent home because there is no care package, because physio not available to check they can climb stairs, because pharmacy closed... Patients with multiple conditions where there's no joined up approach to care. My mum was in and out of hospital a lot - this lack of co-ordination wasn't a one-off - it was evident every time she was in. These aren't issues with nurses and doctors, but with the system as a whole. It's never good to recommend more managers, but I'm sure at a local level a competent analyst could make minor tweaks to procedures that would have major impact on service levels and reduce stress on doctors and nurses.

Obviously outpatients waiting lists are a different issue, but I'm sure most of us who have been outpatients have had similar experiences - my recent shoulder injury, I was asked to arrive 15 minutes before my appointment for an x-ray - x-ray was shut until an hour after my appointment was supposed to have happened, by which time there were about 30 people waiting... None of this is helped by staff being off with covid of course, and the whole pandemic thing has had a massive impact on non-urgent care.
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I echo what Fiona says about the lack of coordination, and that this is a problem with the system. My great-grandma was in hospital for a considerable period shortly before she died, and I didn't really got a positive impression of the system - one time she hadn't eaten for a whole day because nobody checked that a lady who was in hospital because she'd not been eating properly, had eaten. She'd hidden her food under a cup, and it took another resident pointing out that she was hiding her food for it to be noticed. The lack of staff, and those that are there being overworked, means that there often isn't really adequate attention to detail.

When you've got a patient who has been eating a couple of biscuits and a few bites of a sandwich, and throwing most of that up, in the days before they were admitted, it really isn't very sensible to assume that they've somehow managed to stomach two full meals with no problems, and if anyone had taken time to consider this then it would have been quite quickly discovered that something was amiss.
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Post by Phil H »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:40 pm So I rang up and after about half an hour on hold, I was told I would get an appointment in about 5 months. What? The appointment will be in 5 months? No, you'll get the date in 5 months. So were they just planning on ignoring me until then? Because that's pretty stupid anyway. It's much quicker for everyone to just send out a standard letter saying that than have this pointless telephone call.
This sort of thing seems depressingly common in both public and commercial organisations, but it's also fascinating in a way. Vast majority of people would immediately recognise its shitness if they were the 'victim', but somehow many of these same people convince themselves it's OK to inflict upon others.

Is it a symptom of over-individualised societies? Capitalism? The human condition?
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Re: NHS-worship

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Phil H wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:47 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:40 pm So I rang up and after about half an hour on hold, I was told I would get an appointment in about 5 months. What? The appointment will be in 5 months? No, you'll get the date in 5 months. So were they just planning on ignoring me until then? Because that's pretty stupid anyway. It's much quicker for everyone to just send out a standard letter saying that than have this pointless telephone call.
This sort of thing seems depressingly common in both public and commercial organisations, but it's also fascinating in a way. Vast majority of people would immediately recognise its shitness if they were the 'victim', but somehow many of these same people convince themselves it's OK to inflict upon others.

Is it a symptom of over-individualised societies? Capitalism? The human condition?
I dunno. It's strange, but it costs them time too. Maybe when they sent the initial letter out they thought they might send me an appointment date by 30th March and didn't realise how big the backlog was. But given that this is the case, there must be loads of people ringing in now with their own awkward questions about what's going on. Surely a standardised letter going out to everyone affected explaining that they have to wait a bit longer would be quicker and would head a lot of this off.

Anyway, someone I sort of know (a friend of a friend who I've met a handful of times) actually had some symptoms fairly similar to mine but I think more acutely and as it turned out more transiently. He rang 111 and was told to go to A&E and as far as I understand had tests performed on him that I likely will in several months' time. Well I don't think I need to tell you what I'm seriously considering right now.

Edit - Not doing it right now but thinking right now of doing it. I will plan it out while seeing how my symptoms play out.
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