Spoilers for Tuesday July 8th 2014 (S71 P7)

[Jordan F]

Tim Gregory is our new champion. Is win number 2 in the cards for him? He does have the highest score of the series thus far at 79, so maybe we can finally get a score in the 80s or higher.

Join Callum for the recap later.

[szodiac]

In round 2 Jessica found AGNISED in the ODO.
Listed as a variant spelling of the verb AGNIZE.
Means to recognise the existence of. Archaic.
AGNISE is not listed in the OED that we've got.

Mauro/Jessica

[Tony Atkins]

GOATEES, word of the match? AWESOME! (or TOWAGES, STOWAGE, GAMETES etc)

[Bradley Cates]

HOUSEFUL in R7

[Tony Atkins]

In round 2 Jessica found AGNISED in the ODO.
Listed as a variant spelling of the verb AGNIZE.
Means to recognise the existence of. Archaic.
AGNISE is not listed in the OED that we've got.

Mauro/Jessica

Neither are in ODE3 - so well done!

[Tony Atkins]

The longest word didn't make the edit - assume SPRINKLE?

[Mark Kudlowski]

The longest word didn't make the edit - assume SPRINKLE?

SPUNKIER ? (as in braver)

[Tony Atkins]

The longest word didn't make the edit - assume SPRINKLE?

SPUNKIER ? (as in braver)

Yep both - and lots of 7s.

[Mark Kudlowski]

4th nos: (75-10) x 8 = 520; 9 x 3 = 27; 520-27 = 493

[Bradley Cates]

I think the conundrum has two solutions. I went for RETCONNED.

[Peter Mabey]

Alt last numbers: (75+10+2)x(8+9)/3=493

[Innis Carson]

I think the conundrum has two solutions. I went for RETCONNED.

Indeed. Would have been fine as a conundrum last series.

[Tony Atkins]

I think the conundrum has two solutions. I went for RETCONNED.

Damian must be using up old ODE3 conundrums then as it is not in that but certainly in ODO.

[Tony Atkins]

Alt last numbers: (75+10+2)x(8+9)/3=493

Nice - I did Rachel's way - and despite what she says I think 1L is more of a gamble than some other selections.

[Mark Kudlowski]

The longest word didn't make the edit - assume SPRINKLE?

The edits seem to be getting more severe in recent weeks. Could longer ad breaks and more programme plugs be the culprit ?

[Philip Wilson]

Spunkier makes more sense being editted!
A tyre can't be trod though, guess it can't be treaded either, and I went for reflush over flusher too, just seems much more likely to be in.

[szodiac]

In round 2 Jessica found AGNISED in the ODO.
Listed as a variant spelling of the verb AGNIZE.
Means to recognise the existence of. Archaic.
AGNISE is not listed in the OED that we've got.

Mauro/Jessica

Neither are in ODE3 - so well done!

It's in CSW so are some of those words sneaking in?

But wait... in round 5 the MOOTED round. Champion's word DATER is in ODO but not in our OED!?!?! Are Susie and Jessica using the same Oxford dictionary on line?

[szodiac]

The longest word didn't make the edit - assume SPRINKLE?

OK Jessica again! In this round Susie disallowed LUPINES.

Jessica *found* LUPINES listed under LUPIN in the ODO (and OED). (Susie may have just typed Lupine and looked for an S hook)

Jessica had to type in the *whole* word into the text box on the website.
This took her to the right definition which listed LUPINE as a variant spelling of LUPIN which defines it as a pea-plant.

Errrrmmm

Mauro/Jessica

ps: who should think Jessica should apply for the DC opening when it becomes available?

[Innis Carson]

ODO says LUPINE is a North American spelling of LUPIN though, which is probably why it wasn't allowed.

[Gavin Chipper]

Griff Rhys Jones seemed to be trying to ask Susie why non-words (such as acronyms) were in the dictionary but she was in a bit of a world of her own.

[szodiac]

ODO says LUPINE is a North American spelling of LUPIN though, which is probably why it wasn't allowed.

It all depends on how Susie looked it up. I believe she looked up LUPINE as in wolflike and not LUPINE as in 'see LUPIN' plant. She did give the definition as "pertaining to wolf"

We might never know. There is a little 2 above the word Lupine on the right hand side of the ODO in the 'see also' section which she may or may not have noticed.

US spellings are currently marked and not allowed like FAVOR^.
The listing definition would suggest to me it's a North American word as opposed to a North American spelling.

It's going to be a while before we'll get to grasp, and navigate around, the ODO fully methinks

Mauro/Jessica

[Gavin Chipper]

ODO says LUPINE is a North American spelling of LUPIN though, which is probably why it wasn't allowed.

It says North American not US and I think it's only US spellings that are disallowed. It is also not listed as a spelling and has its own pronunciation listed so it's arguably a separate term. LUPINES should be valid and looking up the declared word should be done as default. So what Mauro says really.

[James Robinson]

ODO says LUPINE is a North American spelling of LUPIN though, which is probably why it wasn't allowed.

It says North American not US and I think it's only US spellings that are disallowed. It is also not listed as a spelling and has its own pronunciation listed so it's arguably a separate term. LUPINES should be valid and looking up the declared word should be done as default. So what Mauro says really.

According to what Charlie has been saying in ODO list maker on Apterous, North American spellings are now not allowed, as well as US spellings, so Susie was correct this time.

BORANES in round 8, FOREIGN/GENITOR/TRIGONE in round 11 and INTRADOS in round 13.

[Innis Carson]

It is also not listed as a spelling and has its own pronunciation listed so it's arguably a separate term.

It's listed "as a spelling" in the same way that alternative spellings always are, and it would be weird for the fact that it's also pronounced differently to make a difference. No substantive difference is outlined between LUPINE (in this sense) and LUPIN. And yes, it's been intimated elsewhere that 'North American' spellings are officially disallowed now too, though you wouldn't have been able to see that in fairness. I'm in two minds about whether or not I agree with the rule, but given that it's in place, I think this was a justifiable ruling.

Reading too much into what we think Susie did to check the word is fairly pointless too considering there's a good chance what we saw is a retake. I'd be surprised if this didn't cause any discussion at the time of recording.

[szodiac]

It is also not listed as a spelling and has its own pronunciation listed so it's arguably a separate term.

The ambiguity lies in the fact that the entry for LUPINE lists it neither as a "term" or "spelling" just North American.

If you look at the entries for SIDEWALK and CELLPHONE. They are also listed as North American. So they'll not be allowed then!

Then I had a look at other words to see what ODO says: CARIBOU (US term), TATTLETALE (US spelling), GARBAGE (North American).

Sorry I'm just trying to make sense of which are allowed and which are not according to ODO.

Hope we don't get into this trouble at CoStAl this Saturday

Mauro/Jessica

[Innis Carson]

The rule has always been a bit fuzzy and I'm not sure if there'll be any objective way of distinguishing between 'spellings' and 'words' that will never go wrong, but I find that alternative spellings tend to be given in brackets under the headword but before the entry, such as with FLAVOR and ANEMIC. If it says "US" or "North American" here, then I'd be inclined to call it an American spelling and disallow it. If the "US" or "North American" tag appears with no brackets in the section containing definitions, such as with DUMPSTER or JELLO, then it's more likely to be indicating the regional usage of a distinct word with a distinct meaning, and those are allowable. Going by this, all of Mauro's examples are allowable, but LUPINES isn't. I realise this is all very arbitrary, but it would be nice to put together some kind of objective way of judging this, and in all cases I can think of off the top of my head, this way is consistent with past rulings and with intuition - though there could well be counterexamples and I'd be interested to see them.

[Gavin Chipper]

It's listed "as a spelling" in the same way that alternative spellings always are, and it would be weird for the fact that it's also pronounced differently to make a difference.

My worry was that although it's listed as alternative spellings always are, it's also listed as alternative terms are since it doesn't seem to make an explicit difference. Being pronounced differently means it's more than a different spelling.

The rule has always been a bit fuzzy and I'm not sure if there'll be any objective way of distinguishing between 'spellings' and 'words' that will never go wrong, but I find that alternative spellings tend to be given in brackets under the headword but before the entry, such as with FLAVOR and ANEMIC.

You might be right. In the NODE, HAULER is right next to HAULIER, and it has its own entry saying that it's a North American term. It also has its own entry in the ODO. So maybe if it's a term they'll explicitly say so, but it if it's a spelling then they won't.

[Clive Brooker]

... there could well be counterexamples and I'd be interested to see them.

If I'm understanding you correctly, some examples which appear as spelling variants but which might be considered substantively different from their UK forms are aluminum, apothegm, behoove and tidbit. There used to be zibet/zibeth but they seem to have disappeared.

[David Williams]

I went for reflush over flusher too, just seems much more likely to be in.

But FLUSHER also means "having more money".

[Philip Wilson]

I went for reflush over flusher too, just seems much more likely to be in.

But FLUSHER also means "having more money".

Didn't think of that until after I wrote the msg tbh, so long after watching the match