c4countdown

I would suggest that we have a suggestions thread for ideas to move forward (this can even be the thread). This is not meant as a criticism of the forum, which is obviously well run.

My first suggestion (excluding the suggestion to have this thread) is that I think that there are too many subforums, and that this could be cut down. Back on the Yahoo group, there wasn't even one "forum", but just a single thread. Obviously that was lacking, but I think maybe it's gone too far the other way. I think it's awkward having to keep looking in different forums.

Having a look in the spoiler forum, people put that it's a spoiler in the subject line anyway, so people are "protected" by that alone. I think that they could go in the main forum. Also, if the idea was originally that people were going to put actual spoilers in the subject line, it limits what people can look at in terms of older games if they haven't seen the recent games. Games get old quickly and someone might want to look at posts relating to an old game, and have to go through the spoiler forum, which would be where they were posted.

So I would suggest that all spoiler threads should go in the main forum, but adequately titled.

Recaps I can understand more having their own forum, but since people might then start discussing the game in that thread, I think it might make more sense then to have them in the main forum. I would suggest it only makes sense for them to have their own forum if all discussion of the games still goes in the main forum.

What do you guys reckon?

It would be ideal IMO to have at least the following in separate forums/subforums:

• Polls
  Recaps
  CO-Events
  Spoilers
  Photos
  Non-Countdown Topics

Oh my God!!! Are you seriously criticising the forum after making a point of critising the mailing list? You just want to cause trouble; your posts are endless and boring in the extreme: why don't you bog off?

To be fair I've seen a lot of start-up forums with something like 30 sub-forums that all die very quickly. IMO 5 is an ideal number- while I'd personally have had just one subforum for recaps, I see no issue with the way it's set up now. CO-Events don't really need more than 1 thread each- and photos from said event will be in the thread come Saturday evening.

Joseph Bolas wrote:It would be ideal IMO to have at least the following in separate forums/subforums:

• Polls
  Recaps
  CO-Events
  Spoilers
  Photos
  Non-Countdown Topics

OK, so you're the opposite! Oh well, it's interesting to see what different people think.

Janowsky wrote:Oh my God!!! Are you seriously criticising the forum after making a point of critising the mailing list? You just want to cause trouble; your posts are endless and boring in the extreme: why don't you bog off?

What is your problem? It's not a criticism, but a suggestion. Or at least a constructive criticism. Soo/Charlie obviously decided what he thought was best at the time, but what's best can't always be known until it's tried out. And then people air their views.

You get this on other forums too. People are put off putting suggestions by people who get upset over anything. Or when they do put suggestions, they spend about a paragraph explaining that they are not trying to offend anyone before they make their point because of people like you. But I can't be bothered with it. Cause trouble? Take a look in the mirror.

Gevin-Gavin wrote:What do you guys reckon?

I reckon a suggestion thread is a good idea. That's the only suggestion I liked though. Re-introducing spoiler space? Retarded, when we have the facility to get around such a crude technique. I think maybe the recap and spoiler threads could be merged with the day's recap posted in the day's spoilers thread.

Gevin-Gavin wrote:Cause trouble? Take a look in the mirror.

Does this count for a witty riposte these days? I was making wisecracks like this in primary school. Also it doesn't make sense, because Janowsky clearly doesn't use mirrors.

Gevin-Gavin wrote:My first suggestion (excluding the suggestion to have this thread) is that I think that there are too many subforums, and that this could be cut down. Back on the Yahoo group, there wasn't even one "forum", but just a single thread. Obviously that was lacking, but I think maybe it's gone too far the other way. I think it's awkward having to keep looking in different forums.

I personally use the "View new posts" link on the board index each time I come here.

http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~calr3/c4count ... d=newposts

It shows everything that's been done since the last time you visited. Handy indeed, all this forum lark.

Ginger Jono wrote:

Gevin-Gavin wrote:What do you guys reckon?

I reckon a suggestion thread is a good idea. That's the only suggestion I liked though. Re-introducing spoiler space? Retarded, when we have the facility to get around such a crude technique. I think maybe the recap and spoiler threads could be merged with the day's recap posted in the day's spoilers thread.

My point was that people were already writing "spoiler" in the subject line anyway so there's no need to re-introduce actual spoiler space. And since it says "spoiler" in the thread title, it could be in the main forum. Just a suggestion though.

Ginger Jono wrote:

Gevin-Gavin wrote:Cause trouble? Take a look in the mirror.

Does this count for a witty riposte these days? I was making wisecracks like this in primary school. Also it doesn't make sense, because Janowsky clearly doesn't use mirrors.

Witty riposte? No, it was a genuine suggestion!

Ginger Jono wrote:

Gevin-Gavin wrote:Cause trouble? Take a look in the mirror.

Does this count for a witty riposte these days? I was making wisecracks like this in primary school. Also it doesn't make sense, because Janowsky clearly doesn't use mirrors.

LMAO, it's funny because it's true.

Hmmm, a suggestions thread.

Amusingly (or bemusingly) you have to start a suggestions thread to suggest a suggestions thread, cos otherwise there is nowhere sensible for the suggestion thread suggestion to be suggested into.

That sort of suggests to me that a suggestion thread would be difficult to argue against, since in order to suggest not having a suggestions thread you'd have to validate the suggestion thread by putting the "have no suggestion thread" suggestion in the suggestion thread you suggest was not a worthwile suggestion.

All this madness just so I can see how my name appears on a forum post.

DC

Hiyo,

All that madness above only to think of a useful remark once I'd posted it.

I believe there is validity in not oversplitting things. It'll probably become apparent where the boundary between what needs to be divided up and what doesn't lies as usage grows.

I believe people tend to find stuff difficult to keep track of once there are more than 7 concepts on the go. Most designers of menu driven systems for computers tend to shy away from offering more than say 8 options at a time because it's cumbersome to look through them all all the time (software designers tend to group them if needs must)

One problem of the Yahoo group was that if you dropped out of a particular issue for a couple of days it could be very difficult to sort out where it's at. Also when doing the reviews I like to credit the winners people get, it could become quite time consuming finding everything in amongst a lot of other stuff.

The new approach is way more convenient for all that.

DC

I'm still considering merging Recaps with Spoilers. Maybe we can have a poll.

from my (relatively extensive) experience of forums, 5 is a *tiny* number of sub-forums to have, I agree with the post above (which I can't be bothered to navigate away and back for) - it doesn't really matter if you have sub-forums (such as, say the CO- events forum) that are likely to be completely inactive for a period of time, since you can easily check when threads have been updated

I'm not entirely convinced of the need for a separate 'polls' forum, come to think of it, although maybe the statistician in me is...hmmm

one thing I wonder is whether Soo (or any other admins if they exist) can sticky threads that need to stay at the top even with little activity in them (such as a thread for IRC if I ever get properly around to sorting it out) - I'm not too familiar with this type of forum (it seems to be hosted on your SRCF space somehow, which I find amusingly impressive)

Charlie Reams wrote:I'm still considering merging Recaps with Spoilers. Maybe we can have a poll.

If anything, I would merge spoilers with the general forum and leave the recaps. I had the idea that you had a separate recap forum so that it could be left uncluttered and someone could go and find a specific game easily. But I suppose you can do that through the Corral. So I would even suggest if that was not your purpose for having a separate recap forum to merge them all!

I know people have suggested that it is not really all that awkward to have all the separate subforums. Maybe not, but is there a positive reason for having them as opposed to just a lack of negatives? Aesthetically, I'd say less is better.

Thanks to everyone who's posted or spoken to me with suggestions. I'll look into technical things, and discuss the remainder with the other mods.

To address the main issue of the moment, I'm receiving totally mixed opinions about more/fewer/the same number of forums, so for now I'll leave it at 5 and accept that I can't please everyone (or apparently anyone.) My rationale, for the record, was:

* Countdown General - obvious.
* Spoilers - people often put spoilers in the title (eg. "Well done David") and that's no problem with a separate forum. Also it prevents accidentally reading the wrong topic, which I've done plenty of times. And, as Dave observed, it makes it easier for the recap writers to find the daily beaters.
* Recaps - convenient for organisation purposes. Also some people never read the recaps and some people always read them, so it makes sense to delineate along those lines.
* Historical recaps - I'm always a bit worried that my occasional flurries of classic recaps flood the group, and would probably confuse new users. I don't expect this to receive a high volume of posts, so it can mostly be skipped over.
* Off-topic - obvious (you're reading it aren't you?)

As the number of users and posts increases, as I expect it to, the dynamic of the forums may change, so I'm hoping to be flexible from the start.

May I suggest spoiler tags, as you get in a few puzzle/gaming forums, in order to banish the infamous 'spoiler space' to Hull for all eternity? The onset of a forum which allows for rich text formatting makes spoiler space look ugly in the extreme.

There's a spoilers forum, so no need for spoiler space.

Gevin-Gavin wrote:

Janowsky wrote:Oh my God!!! Are you seriously criticising the forum after making a point of critising the mailing list? You just want to cause trouble; your posts are endless and boring in the extreme: why don't you bog off?

What is your problem? It's not a criticism, but a suggestion. Or at least a constructive criticism. Soo/Charlie obviously decided what he thought was best at the time, but what's best can't always be known until it's tried out. And then people air their views.

You get this on other forums too. People are put off putting suggestions by people who get upset over anything. Or when they do put suggestions, they spend about a paragraph explaining that they are not trying to offend anyone before they make their point because of people like you. But I can't be bothered with it. Cause trouble? Take a look in the mirror.

Okay Gevin, I think I am judging you on posts I have read whilst lurking on your own Countdown group. You just came across as a splitter but I am happy to start off anew since this is a new site and petty arguments are best left to one side. **handshake**

David O'Donnell wrote:Okay Gevin, I think I am judging you on posts I have read whilst lurking on your own Countdown group. You just came across as a splitter but I am happy to start off anew since this is a new site and petty arguments are best left to one side. **handshake**

Excellent! I'm not 100% sure what a splitter is, but yes - **returns handshake**

I think a round-by-round 'live' recap on the forum while the show is being aired would be kinda neat. Even if it's just as a one-off.

Why has viewing the C4Countdown Yahoo Group become a members only pursuit? Obviously one can log in, but since posting is generally discouraged, it seems a bit of a waste of time if one just wants to browse posts.

Good question. I changed the setting "Membership Type" to "Closed (only invited members can join)" so that new users didn't sign up to mailing list without reading the notice about this place. Apparently Yahoo, due to being a piece of shit, interprets this to mean you have to log in to read, although how these things are related I have no idea. The other great thing is apparently Yahoo won't allow this setting to be changed back. My suggested work-around is to tick the "Keep me signed in for two weeks" box, which at least means it'll only be annoying once every two weeks. Alternatively just use the email interface rather than the ropey online one.

I myself do not have to log in before viewing the C4Countdown Yahoo group. I must be doing something right for a change.

Mary

I have to admit that now this forum has been around a while, the more I think that the "spoiler" and "recap" threads for each game would be better off being the same - i.e. the two subforums could become one. People discuss the game in both anyway, and if I'm looking for an old post, I sometimes forget where it is. The only "disadvantage" I can see is that the recap wouldn't get to be the first post in the thread, but does that matter?

Gevin-Gavin wrote:I have to admit that now this forum has been around a while, the more I think that the "spoiler" and "recap" threads for each game would be better off being the same - i.e. the two subforums could become one. People discuss the game in both anyway, and if I'm looking for an old post, I sometimes forget where it is. The only "disadvantage" I can see is that the recap wouldn't get to be the first post in the thread, but does that matter?

Urp, that would really annoy me. For a start you'd end up seeing the DC beaters on the way down to the recap. The benefit of being able to read old posts is minimal, since I doubt there's much need to refer to old spoiler threads and there's a Search box on every page if you really need it.

Charlie Reams wrote:Urp, that would really annoy me. For a start you'd end up seeing the DC beaters on the way down to the recap. The benefit of being able to read old posts is minimal, since I doubt there's much need to refer to old spoiler threads and there's a Search box on every page if you really need it.

Well, it's the fact that posts are spread out over various forums despite being on the same topic. Is seeing DC beaters on the way down to the recap so bad? And the amount of actual discussion on an individual game is unlikely to be that much, so it would be nice to have it in one thread. But, just an idea.

Creating a problem that doesnt exist here arent we Gev? Spoilers spoil recaps and should be kept separately.

I think Gavin has a point. Seems a bit redundant having two threads devoted to the discussion of every episode. Maybe make it so that no-one replies to the recap threads, and make the Spoilers forum a 'Spoilers and Discussion' forum.

That would be more sensible but the recaps thread is the best place to point out if the recapper has made a really stupid mistake!

Could make the recap writers mods of one big forum and ask them to merge in the spoiler threads when they post their recaps?

Gevin-Gavin wrote:

Charlie Reams wrote:Urp, that would really annoy me. For a start you'd end up seeing the DC beaters on the way down to the recap. The benefit of being able to read old posts is minimal, since I doubt there's much need to refer to old spoiler threads and there's a Search box on every page if you really need it.

Well, it's the fact that posts are spread out over various forums despite being on the same topic. Is seeing DC beaters on the way down to the recap so bad? And the amount of actual discussion on an individual game is unlikely to be that much, so it would be nice to have it in one thread. But, just an idea.

I agree that it would be nice to have one topic per topic, as it were. But for me, seeing the DC beaters is a showstopper because it means you can't use the recaps to play along at home - which is (or at least was originally) their purpose. Perhaps RB's suggestion would be one solution, but I for one can't be arsed locking the recap thread every day. Also people often use the recap topic to point out mistakes or otherwise quote the recap itself.

Jono's idea is plausible but
1) Putting more strain on recap authors is a bit unfair. I recently had to explain how to write a recap to Julian, and it wasn't until I had to spell it all out that I realised how much voodoo actually surrounds the process now. I will look into streamlining that over the summer, but until then I think asking them to get to grips with phpBB and act as mods is too much.
2) If a recap author goes rogue, he could edit and screw up everyone else's recaps. We've already seen once that people will abuse the ability to edit even their own posts.

Charlie Reams wrote:2) If a recap author goes rogue.

I love this melodramatic phrasing so much that I actually want to go rogue .

Me too. In fact, I'm tempted to take it a step further, become co-admin by sucking up to Reams, then freeze him out and vandalise the forum with swastikas.

I think people should have to send their passport to Charlie for verification.

I think you should suck me off, but I guess we can't all get what we want.

Maybe you could have an initial post with just a dot in it, all discussion goes after it, and then the first post is edited to become the recap. Obviously this would have the problem that someone would always need to remember to do the dot post (presumably the person doing the recap as well).

Gevin-Gavin wrote:Maybe you could have an initial post with just a dot in it, all discussion goes after it, and then the first post is edited to become the recap. Obviously this would have the problem that someone would always need to remember to do the dot post (presumably the person doing the recap as well).

Yeah, that's almost workable. One of my plans for the summer is to make the Recap Writer post the recap here automatically, through some special user account. So I guess that would be compatible with this idea. Patience required.

A couple of suggestions:

Firstly, a rating system similar to the comments on Youtube and others, where you can give a post a thumbs-up or down, with posts receiving enough 'negative' feedback being hidden unless the user chooses to read them. I'd really rather not use the Foes list as everyone (I think) has something useful to say - but the amount of garbage being waded through to read it is really starting to grate. It's the only downside I have with the forum really - on the mailing list there wasn't anything like this amount of 'state the obvious', 'state the pointless' and 'state something completely unrelated to the thread' being posted.

Secondly, is it possible to have a 'view the most recent posts' button, which would display new messages (or even just the most recent 10, 20 or whatever) since your last visit in time/date order? I'm used to picking out what posts relate to which thread on other forums/fora with this method - although on here that might prove a touch tricky.

Whilst I'm at it - thanks to Charlie for his continued work on the forum/wiki.

Dan Vanniasingham wrote:Firstly, a rating system similar to the comments on Youtube and others, where you can give a post a thumbs-up or down, with posts receiving enough 'negative' feedback being hidden unless the user chooses to read them. I'd really rather not use the Foes list as everyone (I think) has something useful to say - but the amount of garbage being waded through to read it is really starting to grate. It's the only downside I have with the forum really - on the mailing list there wasn't anything like this amount of 'state the obvious', 'state the pointless' and 'state something completely unrelated to the thread' being posted.

I will look into that. As its the same small number of users making the pointless posts you mention, the "Foes and Friends" feature works fairly well for me already.

Dan Vanniasingham wrote:Secondly, is it possible to have a 'view the most recent posts' button, which would display new messages (or even just the most recent 10, 20 or whatever) since your last visit in time/date order? I'm used to picking out what posts relate to which thread on other forums/fora with this method - although on here that might prove a touch tricky.

Follow the View active topics link from the front page.

Dan Vanniasingham wrote:Whilst I'm at it - thanks to Charlie for his continued work on the forum/wiki.

Cheers.

Charlie Reams wrote:I will look into that. As its the same small number of users making the pointless posts you mention, the "Foes and Friends" feature works fairly well for me already.

I hope I'm not considered one of these!

Gevin-Gavin wrote:

Charlie Reams wrote:I will look into that. As its the same small number of users making the pointless posts you mention, the "Foes and Friends" feature works fairly well for me already.

I hope I'm not considered one of these!

I for one always read your posts, although I guess not everyone would agree on who those users are.