Vord at the (white) board

[Lesley Hines]

So, Carol's been furthering her political career by examining maths teaching in schools, and has recommended everyone learn maths until they're 18, and that the GCSE be split into two: practical and theoretical.

I might be being a bit dim, but hasn't she noticed an awful lot of people leave school at 16? Many of those are the ones who didn't get a C or above at GCSE, so I'm not sure what forcing them into education they clearly don't want's going to achieve. I don't think you need maths GCSE to do an awful lot of jobs, so I'm not sure what the point (and extra expense) is.

[Jon O'Neill]

Yeah, I heard her on 5 live one morning and I think she's got it completely backwards. If you don't like Maths at 14, you're probably never going to like it. They should focus more on engaging people with Maths at like 7 or something, get everyone up to the same standard then with summer schools or whatever it takes, so that everyone's up. Once you fall behind at a young age, there's nothing extra years of study can do.

Also splitting practical and theoretical seems quite a simplistic way of doing things. Isn't all Maths practical? I think they should include aspects of mental maths in the curriculum for longer though, if that's what she wants. But of course I think that's important because I'm good at it, and we all think what we're good at is important.

[Charlie Reams]

They should focus more on engaging people with Maths at like 7 or something, get everyone up to the same standard then with summer schools or whatever it takes, so that everyone's up. Once you fall behind at a young age, there's nothing extra years of study can do.

Yep. See KIPP, or (for Gevin) the Knowledge is Power Program.

[Lesley Hines]

Yeah, I think that's better. If you've given up with maths at 16, carrying on until you're 18 ain't gonna help.

When I was in primary school there was a really rigorous focus on the three Rs - we did loads of mental arithmetic, calculators weren't allowed into school at all and learnt long division and arithmetic and practical geometry etc. I was recently speaking to a primary head with my Usborne work who said it's much more difficult to achieve that with the topic-based focus on learning they have in schools now (maybe there are some primary teachers who fancy helping me out on this one?). I remember from my reports that the only thing we were graded on with Richmond tests was English and maths until year 5, when science and history and other stuff came in too. /oldfart

The teacher makes loads of difference too. I wanted to do the higher paper, and was told I'd be lucky to achieve a C so was only entered for the intermediate. (I did get the C - highest grade available.) I knew I could do better, so I resat it and got an A*. Yah boo sucks to you

[John Gillies]

So, Carol's been furthering her political career by examining maths teaching in schools, and has recommended everyone learn maths until they're 18, and that the GCSE be split into two: practical and theoretical.

Wow! What a radical idea from Carol.
Way back in 1977 when I sat my Scottish 'O' Grades, I did one in Arithmetic (fractions, decimals, percentages etc) and one in Maths (algebra, geometry, trig etc). I think it was a good system because classmates who hated and couldn't do the Maths 'O' Grade were not necessarily bad at basic numerical calculations, and were often capable of achieving the Arithmetic 'O' Grade.

Also splitting practical and theoretical seems quite a simplistic way of doing things. Isn't all Maths practical?

Hell yeah. I use Graham's Number all the time when working out my finances.

If you don't like Maths at 14, you're probably never going to like it.

Exactly. If Carol's too stupid to realise this then she'll probably have a great career in politics.

[Brian Moore]

If Carol's too stupid to realise this then she'll probably have a great career in politics.

Or perhaps she could see if she could do something on TV.

I'm reminded of the debate about the other end of schooling. I was listening to some programme (several years ago) that came up with the shocking figure that a third of 11-year-olds were below average for maths, reading and writing. (Obviously they should all be average or above.) Some minister popped up to say that the only answer was to start formal reading, writing and maths lessons even earlier. Yeah, right, so if something's not working, let's just do it for longer. Top logic.

[Marc Meakin]

Five out of four people don't understand fractions!!

[Lesley Hines]

I'm reminded of the debate about the other end of schooling. I was listening to some programme (several years ago) that came up with the shocking figure that a third of 11-year-olds were below average for maths, reading and writing. (Obviously they should all be average or above.)

Genius! You've cracked it! There's no problem with how maths is taught, only the reporting systems they use to measure progress. We should all stop expecting the average to be a measure somewhere in the middle and that way it won't be possible for children to be below average.

I'm often entertained by newspaper reports about failing standards in education. I've seen stuff that we did for GCSE now on A-level papers, but everyone conveniently forgets stuff that's now been included into syllabuses because it simply wasn't there when we did it. The subjects are getting bigger all the time and it's difficult to determine which is more important for inclusion.

[Marc Meakin]

I'm reminded of the debate about the other end of schooling. I was listening to some programme (several years ago) that came up with the shocking figure that a third of 11-year-olds were below average for maths, reading and writing. (Obviously they should all be average or above.)

Genius! You've cracked it! There's no problem with how maths is taught, only the reporting systems they use to measure progress. We should all stop expecting the average to be a measure somewhere in the middle and that way it won't be possible for children to be below average.

I'm often entertained by newspaper reports about failing standards in education. I've seen stuff that we did for GCSE now on A-level papers, but everyone conveniently forgets stuff that's now been included into syllabuses because it simply wasn't there when we did it. The subjects are getting bigger all the time and it's difficult to determine which is more important for inclusion.

Does that mean I can be proud of my Grade 'D' 'O' Level gained in 1981 (pre calculator)
Oh and do People still study Logarithms?

[Brian Moore]

Oh and do People still study Logarithms?

Not routinely at school. Even at the academic independent school at which I teach, the pupils look blank when I ask them if they've ever seen a slide rule. I liked my slide rule. I never used it outside of maths lessons, but I still liked it.

[Peter Mabey]

When I went into the aircraft industry (1945) everybody used slide rules - although I'd bought my first one in Woolworths for sixpence while at school, we weren't taught the use of one, relying on logs. (log tables were allowed in exams, and it was common to write useful notes in your own copy and sneak it in to use instead of the one handed out with the papers. )

[Brian Moore]

I've just dug out my 1979 O-level maths papers (yes, sad, I know), and though obviously we weren't allowed calculators, the instructions tell you to write "SR" next to any answers for which you used your slide rule. If it would amuse/interest anyone, I can scan the papers in for inspection. I got an A, nah nah. (Not that I followed that up with glory in A-level maths. Erm, no.)

[Phil Reynolds]

I've just dug out my 1979 O-level maths papers (yes, sad, I know), and obviously we weren't allowed calculators

Really? Wow. I sat A-level maths the year before and we were allowed calculators. Mine was a Casio fx-29 - it had a blue fluorescent display, could work with fractions as well as decimals and enamoured me with Casio technology for years after.

[Michael Wallace]

I've just dug out my 1979 O-level maths papers (yes, sad, I know), and though obviously we weren't allowed calculators, the instructions tell you to write "SR" next to any answers for which you used your slide rule. If it would amuse/interest anyone, I can scan the papers in for inspection. I got an A, nah nah. (Not that I followed that up with glory in A-level maths. Erm, no.)

One vote for scanning them in from me

I've just dug out my 1979 O-level maths papers (yes, sad, I know), and obviously we weren't allowed calculators

Really? Wow. I sat A-level maths the year before and we were allowed calculators.

A level maths is (well, it was for me, I don't know how much it might have changed over the years) a pretty big step up from GCSE - although I'm pretty sure we were allowed calculators in one of the GCSE papers (with the other one being a non-calculator paper). I have a vague memory of a little calculator symbol next to the ones you were supposed to use your calculator for, come to think of it.

[Mark James]

We did logs in school but never got to use a slide rule. We just used the log books. There was a plank of wood on the wall in every classroom where a slide rule used to be.

If you don't like Maths at 14, you're probably never going to like it.

I dunno. When I first went to secondary school aged 13 I hated maths and got 32% in my summer exam in first year. As school went on I got more and more into it though. Don't know why. Ended up doing Honours level in the leaving cert. Think I got a C but maybe a D. I was happy enough anyway. In my first year of college I got 100% in a maths exam (although it was all matrices and they're piss easy).

[Brian Moore]

One vote for scanning them in from me

Done - here. All my O-, AO- and A-level papers. It's a tribute to my teachers and my ability and industriousness over three years that I got A for O-level, C for AO-level, and O for A-level. Hmm.

I've just dug out my 1979 O-level maths papers (yes, sad, I know), and obviously we weren't allowed calculators

Really? Wow. I sat A-level maths the year before and we were allowed calculators.

We were for A-level. By that time I had a Casio with an LCD display (I think I've still got it somewhere), rather than the Texas with the LEDs that ate 9v batteries.

A level maths is (well, it was for me, I don't know how much it might have changed over the years) a pretty big step up from GCSE

Yup, it was for me too. I actually revised quite a bit for that exam and failed it, whereas music I did not one minute of revision for, and got an A.

[Karen Pearson]

It's a tribute to my teachers and my ability and industriousness over three years that I got A for O-level, C for AO-level, and O for A-level. Hmm.

Very similar to me Brian. I got an A at O-level, B at AO level and an O at A-level! It's a bit depressing working for two years and getting graded as being at the same level as when you started! Although to be fair, I did Pure and Applied (because that's what my brother did) but I was rubbish at physics so I was completely hopeless on the applied bit! Given I was doing French, Spanish and English as well, I don't know why anyone thought Applied would be a good idea!

[Michael Wallace]

One vote for scanning them in from me

Done - here. All my O-, AO- and A-level papers. It's a tribute to my teachers and my ability and industriousness over three years that I got A for O-level, C for AO-level, and O for A-level. Hmm.

Sweet, thanks. Shall geek out on these later.

[Brian Moore]

Although to be fair, I did Pure and Applied (because that's what my brother did) but I was rubbish at physics so I was completely hopeless on the applied bit! Given I was doing French, Spanish and English as well, I don't know why anyone thought Applied would be a good idea!

I did Pure and Applied too, as they thought I was good, and put me in the top set. The dunces did stats. That's where I should have been. I did pass my A-level physics, but with just an E. Still, an A & an E was enough to get me an interview and an unconditional place at university. I guess the interviewer reckoned my being crap at sciences wasn't going to have too big an impact on my ability to do music.

In retrospect I'd have probably done something like French and history instead for A-level, but at the time it seemed like a good idea, and curiously, I'm quite glad I did Maths & Physics, even if it wasn't my finest hour. My excuse for maths was that I'd rather have philosophised about the concepts of imaginary numbers, and how you can have an infinitesimally small number, but still halve it, rather than doing sums with concepts I couldn't wrap my head around. In truth, though, it's probably just because I was crap at really complex equations, and remembering formulae, and stuff.

[Gavin Chipper]

When they have programmes about maths or physics on the television, like Horizon and the programmes with Marcus de Sautoy, they're often quite interesting and could inspire people to get into the subjects. But at school, people are just taught the stuff, which can be quite dry and boring at times, without any context to make it interesting. That was my experience anyway. So show interesting videos at school.

[Julie T]

I might be being a bit dim, but hasn't she noticed an awful lot of people leave school at 16?

The last govt had plans to raise the leaving age to 17 by 2013, and 18 by 2015. Dunno if that is still happening:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7080699.stm

I remember at the time of the reports (2007) working out that it might affect my youngest son. We Home Ed, but once they're 16 the Local Authority don't have any jurisdiction over what we do, so I was a bit pissed off it might last longer. Mind you, now we've Home Edded for so many years, the LA pretty much leave us alone to get on with it.

[Lesley Hines]

I might be being a bit dim, but hasn't she noticed an awful lot of people leave school at 16?

The last govt had plans to raise the leaving age to 17 by 2013, and 18 by 2015.

That might have been while schools still had a budget, instead of collecting tin

Besides, I really don't think people who aren't going to benefit should leave school at 18 instead of 16. Give kids a decent education, or enough skills in life to be employable and productive, and capable of managing their own lives for the first 11 years, and the additional two won't be necessary. That goes for parents too, not just schools. My son's education is first and foremost my responsibility, and I expect the school to help with that, rather than the other way round.

Let those who want to go out to work Heaven knows they can earn more in a trade nowadays than some graduate professions

[Brian Moore]

Besides, I really don't think people who aren't going to benefit should leave school at 18 instead of 16.

But surely you can see the logic of the government's argument, Lesley?: "We haven't managed to teach them all we think they ought to know in twelve years, and we haven't made them love maths in twelve years, so let's do the same for another two years!"

Oh, hang on, that doesn't quite seem right somehow.

[Julie T]

I might be being a bit dim, but hasn't she noticed an awful lot of people leave school at 16?

The last govt had plans to raise the leaving age to 17 by 2013, and 18 by 2015.

That might have been while schools still had a budget, instead of collecting tin

Besides, I really don't think people who aren't going to benefit should leave school at 18 instead of 16. Give kids a decent education, or enough skills in life to be employable and productive, and capable of managing their own lives for the first 11 years, and the additional two won't be necessary. That goes for parents too, not just schools. My son's education is first and foremost my responsibility, and I expect the school to help with that, rather than the other way round.

Let those who want to go out to work Heaven knows they can earn more in a trade nowadays than some graduate professions

Apparently, the coalition is still going ahead with Labour's idea of raising the school-leaving age:

http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenand ... n-response

It does say, though, that 16 and 17 year olds will still be able to work as long as they also undertake part-time training or education.

[David Barnard]

I agree with people that say that there needs to be more mental maths in schools, but the problem is the structure of the lessons, it is all made to be boring and are told how to solve a maths problem and you are not told how it comes in handy in later life. For example for estimating distances you are told how to do it rather than 'if you want to become a builder you need to learn this' and then told how to do it. Maths would be far more exciting for children if they are shown what doors it can open, also it is dead boring at age 13 and 14 and when you are that age and adolescent and discovering your independence you tend to rebel against it and then you end up not learning it. I was the same, but now I find all aspects of maths extremely interesting. Sorry if it seemed a load of gobbledygook but I really am not good at getting my point across.

[Gavin Chipper]

I agree with people that say that there needs to be more mental maths in schools, but the problem is the structure of the lessons, it is all made to be boring and are told how to solve a maths problem and you are not told how it comes in handy in later life. For example for estimating distances you are told how to do it rather than 'if you want to become a builder you need to learn this' and then told how to do it. Maths would be far more exciting for children if they are shown what doors it can open, also it is dead boring at age 13 and 14 and when you are that age and adolescent and discovering your independence you tend to rebel against it and then you end up not learning it. I was the same, but now I find all aspects of maths extremely interesting. Sorry if it seemed a load of gobbledygook but I really am not good at getting my point across.

Makes perfect sense. Teaching what appears to the pupils to be some random stuff in isolation is not a good way to do things. They need to be shown the bigger picture.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Yes, the only way one gets the "usefulness effect" is through careers advice - and they didn't have the career I wanted! Really, you have to use what you learnt and apply it in loads of scenarios - prices rises at canteen, for example.