Riots

[Andy Wilson]

Oh, and there are loads of people in the town centre playing medieval instruments really badly. Will this mindless luting never end?

[Mark James]

You haven't got the slightest clue what's required.

Maybe I don't but I've seen bouncers getting rushed by guys the same size as them and yet they didn't throw punches. They used grappling techniques to keep the attackers arms at bay and get them on the ground and subdued. Are you saying the police in riot armour were required to repeatedly baton a kid whose hands were in a defensive position?

And I mean particularly you, Mr "I don't watch the news or read newspapers", as is evidenced by your next paragraph. How do you even know about these riots? They're not happening in your bedroom.

I did say I don't read newspapers but did I say I don't watch the news? I'll retract that if I did. I hardly ever watch the news is more accurate and if I do its more that I happen to be in the room where someone else is watching it. I check the teletext from time to time too. And I could also have found out about them here couldn't I?

I've thought you were a total moron since you exploded onto the scene with "you shouldn't treat 7 year old girls and 27 year old women any differently", and you've done precisely nothing in the interim to make me reconsider that opinion.

Two points here. Number one. My saying "you shouldn't treat 7 year old girls and 27 year old women any differently" was kind of taken out of context. I find it hard to explain exactly what I mean by it so I'm happy to retract that too.

Number 2. If you think I'm a moron, fair enough, but during any of the discussions I've had with you I cant see any instance where anyone who disagrees with your position resorted to name calling, unlike yourself.

[Marc Meakin]

i think some of the magistrates have been a bit heavy handed. six months for stealinga bottle of water is a bit harsh. branding him with a hot iron would have been fairer

[Jon Corby]

Number 2. If you think I'm a moron, fair enough, but during any of the discussions I've had with you I cant see any instance where anyone who disagrees with your position resorted to name calling, unlike yourself.

I don't think you'd have to look very far to find me being called names, but that's by-the-by. This discussion has actually made me genuinely angry (which could well be a first for this forum) and I shouldn't have taken it out on you like that, so I apologise.

I definitely am taking a break from this now.

[Jon O'Neill]

so I apologise.

Do I get an apology for

you're an arseclown of the highest order.

?

[Jon Corby]

Do I get an apology for

you're an arseclown of the highest order.

?

Sure, you're only low/middle order tops.

[Mark James]

Number 2. If you think I'm a moron, fair enough, but during any of the discussions I've had with you I cant see any instance where anyone who disagrees with your position resorted to name calling, unlike yourself.

I don't think you'd have to look very far to find me being called names, but that's by-the-by. This discussion has actually made me genuinely angry (which could well be a first for this forum) and I shouldn't have taken it out on you like that, so I apologise.

I definitely am taking a break from this now.

Accepted and appreciated.

[Charlie Reams]

As a former police officer

This explains a lot.

[Marc Meakin]

You definitely get an A+ for goading, Charlie!

[Jon Corby]

In a sense, i'm pretty happy that what happened this week happened.

Talk me through this please. I see millions of pounds worth of damage. Homes, businesses (large and small) destroyed. Many injured, some dead. Totally innocent victims with lives destroyed. Plenty of others terrified, the streets awash with violence, looting on a large scale.

What on earth are you happy about?

[Marc Meakin]

I'm guessing because it's not happening on his doorstep and also because it was upsetting enough to get you to post on this thread again !

[Charlie Reams]

In a sense, i'm pretty happy that what happened this week happened.

Talk me through this please. I see millions of pounds worth of damage. Homes, businesses (large and small) destroyed. Many injured, some dead. Totally innocent victims with lives destroyed. Plenty of others terrified, the streets awash with violence, looting on a large scale.

What on earth are you happy about?

People talk a lot about the consequences of having a disillusioned, disenfranchised underclass. If those consequences were, as they so far have been, not much worse than dirty looks from some oiks in a shopping centre then nothing would get done. But once people start smashing up shops then you might see politicians taking action. So if you're someone who'd like to see some action on that front, I can understand why you'd be happy about it (on balance). Sometimes Bad Things have to happen to get anything done. The Lusitania was a tragedy but I'm sure you can imagine how someone taking a long-term view would be happy about it.

Incidentally, it seems Cameron's plan is to treat the symptoms, and as that's worked so well with the war on terror and the war on drugs, who can blame him?

[Marc Meakin]

good point there have been benefits from all sorts of disasters from the bombing of pearl harbour prompting the yanks to enter world war 2 and the bombing of nagasaki hastening the japenese surrender to 9/11 given America the justification to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. But as Andy Wilson made the point I just think he was being a dick!

[Jon Corby]

Haha, Charlie and his obvious compassion for the "underclass". What a fucking joke. You don't have to look very far to find your own contempt for your inferiors, you utter hypocrite.

I don't get why you're desperately trying to assign some kind of political motivation to a load of scummy shits (not just the "underclass" either, clearly) who thought for a while they had free reign to do and take what they please. These people weren't starving. They weren't wondering how they're gonna feed their family next week. It's bollocks.

Out of here.

[Charlie Reams]

Haha, Charlie and his obvious compassion for the "underclass".

I thought you were asking why anyone would be happy about these events, and I tried to explain. If you don't want to understand, that's fine, although I do wonder why you asked. Maybe if you take off the veil of rage long enough to read what I wrote, you might spot that I deliberately didn't say that I was one of them (I'm not). But apparently it's only other people who are expected to read carefully,

you utter hypocrite.

As for your other point,

You don't have to look very far to find your own contempt for your inferiors

Hello tautology! If you mean poor people then, err, example?

[Mark James]

What is annoying to see is how the ordinary citizen just stands back and watches it happen. There are plenty of videos circling the web of people just filming what is happening. Why the fuck are they filming it? Why aren't they trying to prevent the criminal acts?

I was watching QI tonight and Stephen mentioned this. It's probably one of the reasons.

[Andy Wilson]

What on earth are you happy about?

I did say, 'In a sense'. I'm happy that class divide as an issue has been thrust to the forefront. I do at the same time find it all more than a little distressing. It's very sad to see it all unfolding from a distance. I am above all surprised that this is capable of happening in the UK, while still remaining fairly confused by the whole thing. It definitely hasn't fully sunk in yet and I don't understand it enough to talk about it in depth, I can only say how I feel about it. I think it's awesome that such a small group of people could cause so much trouble with so little organisation. We could really force important issues to be considered if we wanted to I think. Unfortunately the better educated are kept busy with work and the idle distractions of everyday life, as well as being better off so not really caring anyway. Isn't what is happening in the arab world this year amazing and inspiring? Isn't it sickening the gap between rich and poor?

[Marc Meakin]

Andy wrote: something about being impressed by small groups of people causing mayhem. You must have come in your pants when the World Trade Centre collapsed!

[Andy Wilson]

A horrible side effect to it all is that people have made smashing shit and taking stuff look pretty easy. There's bound to be an increase in I suppose what we could in this day and age call petty crime, compared to corruption in the land of business.

[Rhys Benjamin]

I'd just like to say that I wasn't arrested, just on holiday and had the TV glued to BBC Parliament.

[Jennifer Steadman]

I'd just like to say that I wasn't arrested, just on holiday and had the TV glued to BBC Parliament.

They'll arrest you for gluing a TV to Parliament, you know.

[Rhys Benjamin]

I'd just like to say that I wasn't arrested, just on holiday and had the TV glued to BBC Parliament.

They'll arrest you for gluing a TV to Parliament, you know.

I forgot no-one's heard of BBC Parliament.

[Jennifer Steadman]

I'd just like to say that I wasn't arrested, just on holiday and had the TV glued to BBC Parliament.

They'll arrest you for gluing a TV to Parliament, you know.

I forgot no-one's heard of BBC Parliament.

sigh
(Incidentally, I have, and I've been known to watch it on occasion.)

I'm still surprised that looters were mainly targeting lower-end shops rather than designer shops - I read about an Armani shop being looted, but have seen far more about branches of Primark and JD Sports being stolen from. I'm sure there's some kind of significant message there.

[Lesley Hines]

Isn't it sickening the gap between rich and poor?

Sorry, I'm struggling with that in this country. Between say, Britain and Somalia? Yes, horrific. But in this country I've never seen a poor person without shoes or clothes, I've never seen anyone with famine-induced oedema, or any of the other things such horrific poverty brings.

In this country if you're poor these are some of the things you can have for free:
Money to live on for bills and food and clothes
Housing
Health care (unlimited, mind)
Dental care
Glasses
Free school meals and milk and uniform for children
Vouchers towards decorating your house if you move into council accommodation
Being put up in temporary accommodation if you're in any way vulnerable
Qualifying for crisis loans and extra money if you're on benefits and need it
Social services to make sure you get everything you need
Gym membership and access to local authority recreational facilities
Edit: extra money if you're in any way disabled / vulnerable
Edit: Transport by way of bus pass / assistance with a car if you're disabled

In addition to this short list of stuff given you by local authorities there's also a plethora of charities (nationally and locally) that redistribute furniture, clothes, household goods, electrical goods, food, help homeless people, hostels, run charity shops for purchasing stuff cheaply, libraries (with internet access!) and museums for education and entertainment, children's projects, parks for recreation, respite care etc.

You may have less choice if you're poor(er) in this country, but I'd still rather be poor here than anywhere else in the world.

[Andy Wilson]

Yeah, fair point, and to be honest, i probably don't really know what I'm talking about as usual, sitting here waffling in my little idealistic bubble of assumption. I suppose I'm thinking about the gulf from the top to the bottom really. I mean, there are a lot of down and outs in this town and yet there are plenty of high rollers. I know some people really it is very difficult to help, with alcohol and drug issues and the like, but we just seem to let these people go and die in the gutter. The gulf between the average earner here and one in the third world is truly sickening.

I won't get into the benefits system right now as I'd be here all bloody day! Suffice to say, my experience with the system has left me feeling demoralised and exhausted. The whole system needs a massive overhaul. They're so concerned with people exploiting it that when you have a genuine claim you are made to feel like you're not entitled to it.

I'd rather be poor in Scandinavia, where they actually treat you like a person and offer you the means to develop your life, choose the right direction for yourself and help you get further, rather than offering you the chance to earn more money doing nothing than working a crap job.

Socialism damn it. That's what we need.

[Andy Wilson]

I think it's funny that the likes of Wayne Rooney and Ferdinand, two working class boys done good and I suppose, symbols of the massive class divide, don't seem to appreciate that they are part of the problem, demanding such obscene amounts of money for their trade and living extravagant lifestyles.

Got the paper this morning. Just got to the back of the sports page and found this.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog ... ootballers

[Charlie Reams]

I think it's funny that the likes of Wayne Rooney and Ferdinand, two working class boys done good and I suppose, symbols of the massive class divide, don't seem to appreciate that they are part of the problem, demanding such obscene amounts of money for their trade and living extravagant lifestyles.

They get paid a lot because a lot of people are willing to pay a lot of money to watch them be extremely good at something that hundreds of millions of people want to be good at. Seems reasonable to me.

[Andy Wilson]

They get paid a doctor's annual salary, per month! Just came across this, which is also relevant to the rich/poor divide subject, with sport in mind. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/au ... ast-living

[Andy Wilson]

They get paid a doctor's annual salary, per month!

And that's the lower paid ones!

[Marc Meakin]

I think it's funny that the likes of Wayne Rooney and Ferdinand, two working class boys done good and I suppose, symbols of the massive class divide, don't seem to appreciate that they are part of the problem, demanding such obscene amounts of money for their trade and living extravagant lifestyles.

They get paid a lot because a lot of people are willing to pay a lot of money to watch them be extremely good at something that hundreds of millions of people want to be good at. Seems reasonable to me.

That would be a good arguement accept, Rio Ferdinand has been a sack of shit for quite some time now
I wonder how long it will be before 'working class' heroes will be the next target for the 'poor' impoverished. (makes hand gesture simulating me playing the world's smallest violin....see clip from Reservoir Dogs for demonstration)

[Charlie Reams]

They get paid a doctor's annual salary, per month!

A footballer brings pleasure to millions of people every week, how many doctors do that? I'm not sure I understand the comparison.

[Andy Wilson]

It's an importance level thing. There's something not right about a person who saves penalties getting paid so much more than one who saves lives.

[Charlie Reams]

It's an importance level thing. There's something not right about a person who saves penalties getting paid so much more than one who saves lives.

So is the money the only way of measuring how important something is?

[Jon Corby]

Maybe if you take off the veil of rage long enough to read what I wrote, you might spot that I deliberately didn't say that I was one of them (I'm not).

Yeah, fair enough - your early contributions to the thread give the impression that you sympathise with the rioters:

I guess it boils down to scumbags spotting a free for all and having fck all else to do?

Seems like a fair description of the police, yep.

What was it Malcolm X said? Chickens coming home to roost?

but then of course you do say

I don't defend the violence, looting or arson, but if you get distracted by that then you miss the serious part of what's happening.

but fail to elaborate what you actually refer to, once the violence, looting and arson have been taken out of the picture. So actually, you're just sneering at all sides involved. Go you, we shouldn't have expected anything else really. It's odd - normally when people jump to conclusions with no real knowledge of a subject matter ("the police shouldn't do that, they should do this") you're only too quick to shut them up.

...I think it's awesome that such a small group of people could cause so much trouble with so little organisation. We could really force important issues to be considered if we wanted to I think...

Summary: yay terrorism!

Good grief.

[Jon Corby]

By the way, having had a long weekend off work (and therefore posting), I'm a little embarrassed at losing my rag in this thread, and certainly got way too personal with some people. Apologies all round for that, I've calmed down now.

[Jon O'Neill]

By the way, having had a long weekend off work (and therefore posting), I'm a little embarrassed at losing my rag in this thread, and certainly got way too personal with some people. Apologies all round for that, I've calmed down now.

Translation: I'm off the rag.

[Marc Meakin]

By the way, having had a long weekend off work (and therefore posting), I'm a little embarrassed at losing my rag in this thread, and certainly got way too personal with some people. Apologies all round for that, I've calmed down now.

At least you didn't resort to death threats.
Btw, I'm a little suprised that you have only just noticed Charlies, erm, 'personality' trait,though for the most part he just sticks to goading hysterical women and me (no tautology comebacks, please)!!.

[Jon Corby]

Btw, I'm a little suprised that you have only just noticed Charlies, erm, 'personality' trait,though for the most part he just sticks to goading hysterical women and me (no tautology comebacks, please)!!.

I'm sure I've been accused of the same (or similar) so yeah, it's a bit of an eye-opener to be on the receiving end instead.

[Mark James]

It's an importance level thing. There's something not right about a person who saves penalties getting paid so much more than one who saves lives.

I see your point Andy but, if you wanted to be slightly facetious, you could make the argument that since prevention is better than cure and poor sanitation leads to disease, street cleaners and sewage workers do a more important job than doctors as they prevent people getting sick in the first place but that wouldn't be reflected in their salary compared to a doctor's.

[Charlie Reams]

You fail to elaborate what you actually refer to, once the violence, looting and arson have been taken out of the picture. So actually, you're just sneering at all sides involved. Go you, we shouldn't have expected anything else really.

Interesting logic, you're certainly leading the field in ad hominems on this topic. I'll elaborate if you want though. On the one hand, I think police violence and malpractice have received a fairly muted reaction over the last few years, and so find it hard to be too sympathetic when that catches up to them. On the other hand, the looting was really punishing the wrong people (although I found the huge backlash of simplistic anti-looter sentiment interesting and didn't expect to see it reflected here) and I wouldn't condone that. If you consider this perspective to be sneering at everyone then I'm not sure what to tell you really. This thread mostly passed me by until it was already quite long, and the few posts I read suggested that main points had already been covered, so if my posts seem glib then it was probably motivated by that. But if you prefer to be insulting then that's fine with me.

[Oliver Garner]

On the one hand, I think police violence and malpractice have received a fairly muted reaction over the last few years, and so find it hard to be too sympathetic when that catches up to them.

Yup, the Mike Tomlinson case was pretty disgraceful in that it took an American tourist to send a video to the Guardian for the matter to be investigated at all. I guess it is because the police attracts a few right-wing types who think that their uniform gives them a special privilege to act violently; behaviour which is condoned and even praised by some sections of the media. I would have said that they shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush and I know some thoroughly decent police officers, but since it seems okay for people in the media to tar everyone in certain groups with the same brush (youths/blacks/anyone who is not stupid enough to advocate any method other than violence and barbarism to solve a problem), I don't want to stoop down to the levels of these morons so I won't generalise.

[David Williams]

right-wing types who think that their uniform gives them a special privilege to act violently

it seems okay for people in the media to tar everyone in certain groups with the same brush

I don't want to stoop down to the levels of these morons so I won't generalise.

[Oliver Garner]

right-wing types who think that their uniform gives them a special privilege to act violently

it seems okay for people in the media to tar everyone in certain groups with the same brush

I don't want to stoop down to the levels of these morons so I won't generalise.

Generalising would be saying that all policemen are right-wing types .... . I didn't do this.

[Rhys Benjamin]

right-wing types who think that their uniform gives them a special privilege to act violently

it seems okay for people in the media to tar everyone in certain groups with the same brush

I don't want to stoop down to the levels of these morons so I won't generalise.

Generalising would be saying that all policemen are right-wing types .... . I didn't do this.

It would make more sense if the rioters were left extremists....

[Jon Corby]

But if you prefer to be insulting then that's fine with me.

Apology accepted, you cunt.

[Marc Meakin]

Apologies from Charlie, are as rare as hen's teeth (or funny Meakin jokes if you like!).
I am sure if the rioting and looting took place in Cambridge rather than, say Croydon, and it was Mr Reams family business that was burnt to the ground rather than Mr Reeves, then I am sure the tone of his posts would be slightly different, ditto if he was working in JD Sport in Manchester rather than Google?, in The good old U S of A.

As for the police they are, and always will be, damned if they do or damned if they don,t when it comes to violence in riot situations...good old Youtube has seen to that!
Btw...still no poll on views on the police.
Disappointing!!

[Ian Volante]

Generalising would be saying that all policemen are right-wing types .... . I didn't do this.

It would make more sense if the rioters were left extremists....[/quote]

Ha, that would imply that they could tell the difference between political ideology and their own backsides.

[Oliver Garner]

It would make more sense if the rioters were left extremists....

Shall I ignore the selfish, materialistic, individualist culture which was created by Thatcher as being a possible cause of the riots ?

[Marc Meakin]

Maybe we should discuss why rioting and looting mainly takes place during the term of a Tory government!

[Jon Corby]

Maybe we should discuss why rioting and looting mainly takes place during the term of a Tory government!

Won't most things "mainly take place during the term of a Tory government", as they're in office more often than not?

[Phil Reynolds]

Shall I ignore the selfish, materialistic, individualist culture which was created by Thatcher as being a possible cause of the riots ?

(Maybe it's time for a redrafting of Godwin's Law...)

[Ian Volante]

Shall I ignore the selfish, materialistic, individualist culture which was created by Thatcher as being a possible cause of the riots ?

(Maybe it's time for a redrafting of Godwin's Law...)

Certainly in Rhys's case!

[Craig Beevers]

So what do people think of the sentencing for the rioters?

Here's one of many articles on it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14553330

[Jon Corby]

So what do people think of the sentencing for the rioters?

Here's one of many articles on it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14553330

Well, I'm certainly in favour of "tough sentences", but don't really want to get into a whole debate as to what they should be (community service vs custodial, the costs, the detrimental effect that prison might have on some etc) as that's a much more complex issue.

In simplistic terms, I think a lot of people were encouraged to join in thinking they would "get away with it", or even if they got caught that they'd get a bit of a slap on the wrist, so I'd imagine there's a lot of rioters/looters awaiting sentencing who are absolutely shitting their pants (in addition to a load more who were possibly on the cusp of joining in and now feeling glad they didn't), which has got to be a good thing.

(I do also have a worry though that there are discrepancies in some of the sentencing, and there's going to be a whole crapload of appeals, and some are gonna end up with compensation :facepalm:)

[Gavin Chipper]

So what do people think of the sentencing for the rioters?

Here's one of many articles on it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14553330

It shows how easily people can get carried away, blindly following the mob, and thinking it's OK to effectively throw away the rulebook because everyone else is doing it.

[Rhys Benjamin]

So what do people think of the sentencing for the rioters?

Here's one of many articles on it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14553330

Great. Magnificent!!

[Jon Corby]

So what do people think of the sentencing for the rioters?

Here's one of many articles on it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14553330

It shows how easily people can get carried away, blindly following the mob, and thinking it's OK to effectively throw away the rulebook because everyone else is doing it.

Haha, very clever