Music

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Ian Volante
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Re: Music

Post by Ian Volante »

Mark James wrote: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:46 pm I was reading some articles on why we go off modern music as we get older and most people suggested that we have more time to discover new stuff when we're younger. I don't buy that argument. I still have the time to search for music I've never heard before but invariably I find myself liking stuff that's years old and hating anything made pretty much from the turn of the millenium onwards. Certainly after 2010. Even the bands I liked in the early 2000s like Muse and Mastodon have gone downhill. There's still the odd tune that comes along that I'll enjoy like Uptown Funk but that may as well be an old song going by the amount of times it gets sued for plagiarism. I definitely think modern recording practices make songs sound worse. I did a bit of audio in college and my lecturer was obsessed with compression. I don't get why you'd bother with it.
I suspect that the change in the way the attention of the listener is seen to be needed to be grabbed immediately is having a big effect, plus the homogeneity of commercial radio and the ease with which one can coccoon oneself into one genre of music all mean that it takes something extraordinary for anything different to break across all of those barriers. Something needs to change (or does it?).
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Re: Music

Post by Jennifer Steadman »

Entirely anecdotally, since I started working I've found that I'm far less interested in music generally, and most of the new songs I do like are mainstream chart #bangaz (New Rules, yaaaas) - things with a beat/riff that perk me up. I have *time* to find new music, but I have so much less time than I had at school or uni because of job/looking after myself that I don't have the patience to actively try and like songs that aren't straight-up bangers.

You could probably argue that people go off modern music as they age because they hold a curmudgeonly jealousy that they're not young, unaffected and flexible enough to twerk to the latest tunes... but I wouldn't want to imply anything about anyone else who's commented ;)
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Re: Music

Post by Mark James »

One of the articles I read made the point that the phenomenon mainly relates to music more so than other forms of entertainment. People still get excited for new books, movies or tv shows in a way that they don't for new music and they demand even more time than listening to a song. And even if you think, as I do, that older movies are still better than new ones, I'm more accepting of a new movie in a way I'm not with new music. Even a bad movie doesn't seem to offend the senses in the same way. I sat through the entirety of the assassin's creed movie but I would have to turn a bad song off within 30 seconds.
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Re: Music

Post by Marc Meakin »

Well I think airplay can have an effect. I hated virtually every song that came out in the noughties, but didn't listen to the radio regularly then. But I do like the odd song in the last five years or so but as I listen to the radio in my job some songs are like earworms. Clean Bandit songs are the best example.
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I've never been one to really actively seek out music, but I used to listen the top 40 and watch Top of the Pops etc. Now I'm too lazy to seek out the top 40 on the radio, and there is no TOTP, except at Christmas and new year. But anyway, I do sometimes stick the radio on, and from what I've gathered the gene pool of the charts is massively reduced these days. There have always been big names that have featured regularly, but now it takes the piss. Out of 40 songs, there are guaranteed to be ten by Ed Sheeran, and about five each from a handful of other people like Taylor Swift or Clean Bandit (OK, a bit of an exaggeration but you see the point). Whatever you think of these particular acts, it's really unhealthy.
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Matt Bayfield wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:38 pm I love the Gotye & Kimbra single.

And if we're totting up unlikely number one singles, I'm tossing in The Real Thing by Tony di Bart.
Much more than unlikely than a single week at number one is that One Dance by Drake was number one for 15 consecutive weeks in 2016, which is just one fewer than the consecutive record held by Bryan Adams's (Everything I Do) I Do It For You. It's not just that I think fairly unmemorable; I also never hear it anywhere, nor did I when it was number one. Last year, for example, Ed Sheeran's Shape of You and that annoying Despacito song were both number one for ages, but you also heard them everywhere. So how did this song manage this feat?

Also, Drake's current effort - God's Plan - is the current number one and has been there for nine weeks. What am I missing?

Edit - This article is relevant. One Dance heavily relied on streaming rather than actual sales (which counts these days), and as far as I understand, some streaming things will pick songs for you, so this is a bit like using air time, which is something the charts never used to do. So I think it's a bit dodgy really. And especially with no Top of the Pops these days, the charts isn't even really a thing any more.
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Re: Music

Post by JimBentley »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:41 pmMuch more than unlikely than a single week at number one is that One Dance by Drake was number one for 15 consecutive weeks in 2016, which is just one fewer than the consecutive record held by Bryan Adams's (Everything I Do) I Do It For You. It's not just that I think fairly unmemorable; I also never hear it anywhere, nor did I when it was number one. Last year, for example, Ed Sheeran's Shape of You and that annoying Despacito song were both number one for ages, but you also heard them everywhere. So how did this song manage this feat?

Edit - This article is relevant. One Dance heavily relied on streaming rather than actual sales (which counts these days), and as far as I understand, some streaming things will pick songs for you, so this is a bit like using air time, which is something the charts never used to do. So I think it's a bit dodgy really. And especially with no Top of the Pops these days, the charts isn't even really a thing any more.
Since streaming became a big component of the chart methodology, the UK singles charts have become much more similar to the US singles charts (which have always included an airplay component and have always been susceptible to record label tampering). Static top fives from week to week aren't really that unusual these days; in the past the beauty of the UK chart was that it moved fast. Not anymore.

There's a reason for that. All three major record labels have significant stakes in Spotify. Spotify accounts for a large proportion of the streaming plays that count towards the chart. 50% of Spotify streams come from playlists. The major (i.e. heavily promoted) Spotify playlists are all backed in one way or another by the three major record labels.

It's just payola, but now it's not only legal, it's celebrated as a fantastic new model.
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Re: Music

Post by Tom S »

Drake- he's a good guy and does a lot for charity work, but really, as harsh as it is, a newbie of his vocal and musical ability should really give up on music. There seems to be some kind of Grime Revolution, and I don't like it one bit.
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Re: Music

Post by Mark James »

What's a band or artist that you don't like but people suspect that you should going by your taste in music. I've never liked Rush. I usually love complicated prog rock but I just don't get their appeal. People always assume I like them but I don't. I particularly hate how Neil Peart is held up as this amazing drummer. I reckon he must be the most overrated musician of all time.
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Re: Music

Post by Marc Meakin »

Probably Pink Floyd but as soon as I got into Radiohead I stopped listening.
Another artiste I don't like as a recording artist is Bob Dylan but I do like his lyrics.
Everyone that's ever covered his songs improve them
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Re: Music

Post by Jennifer Steadman »

Probably the Manics?

Just sounds liek they're trying to awkwardly sing a faux-profound A-level essay over music that doesn't fit. Motorcycle Emptiness (despite suffering from the A-level essay problem) and A Design For Life are good but find the rest to be pretty boring and tuneless guff.
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Re: Music

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Mark James wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:34 pm What's a band or artist that you don't like but people suspect that you should going by your taste in music. I've never liked Rush. I usually love complicated prog rock but I just don't get their appeal. People always assume I like them but I don't. I particularly hate how Neil Peart is held up as this amazing drummer. I reckon he must be the most overrated musician of all time.
This is a weird one to answer, as from my perspective I don't know, but the one I usually get "Wait, what?" from people are My Chemical Romance. Because I like a lot of that slightly verbose pop punk of the mid noughties, it's assumed I'll like them, but I don't. My Mum enjoys playing them to wind me up.
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Re: Music

Post by Mark James »

Jennifer Steadman wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:36 pm Probably the Manics?

Just sounds liek they're trying to awkwardly sing a faux-profound A-level essay over music that doesn't fit. Motorcycle Emptiness (despite suffering from the A-level essay problem) and A Design For Life are good but find the rest to be pretty boring and tuneless guff.
100%. All my mates love them and I can't stand them. I wind my mates up saying they should have been a one hit wonder with Motorcycle Emptiness. Although I also liked the one they did with Nina Parsons and the song they did for Wales in the euros was a decent football tune.

Agree with everyone else so far too. When I was a stoner everyone assumed I liked Pink Floyd but they weren't for me. High Hopes was the one song I could tolerate. (I liked their song titles in the early days like Take up thy Stethoscope and Walk, and Careful with that Axe Eugene. Not so much the songs themselves though)

Also MCR are dreadful. Good work everyone. I was in the humour of bashing stuff today. I'll be more positive later.
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Re: Music

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JimBentley wrote: Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:25 pm Since streaming became a big component of the chart methodology, the UK singles charts have become much more similar to the US singles charts (which have always included an airplay component and have always been susceptible to record label tampering). Static top fives from week to week aren't really that unusual these days; in the past the beauty of the UK chart was that it moved fast. Not anymore.

There's a reason for that. All three major record labels have significant stakes in Spotify. Spotify accounts for a large proportion of the streaming plays that count towards the chart. 50% of Spotify streams come from playlists. The major (i.e. heavily promoted) Spotify playlists are all backed in one way or another by the three major record labels.

It's just payola, but now it's not only legal, it's celebrated as a fantastic new model.
Sigh.

I was taken in by Roisín Murphy's twitter meltdown there a few weeks back where she was freaking out at the lack of response to her music from radio stations. She was harping on about putting so much of herself into making art that she thought was relevant and not getting much help / response from the media or whatever. I thought that it was a bit whiny, although people seemed to be fairly supportive and in agreement. She mentioned that when she contacted some stations that usually playlisted her music they said that they would have been playing it but it hadn't been 'serviced' for radio, so they couldn't. I assume that having your music 'serviced' for radio doesn't mean having it mixed / mastered for radio, and rather means that you have to employ someone who solicits the music to the station. Correct me if i'm wrong, if anyone knows better, but if i am right, well, feck sake like.

I then read an interview with this Northern Irish girl 'Ro' who had gotten some awards or grants or whatever to the tune of 10 or 20 grand or something and was asked about it. She basically said that since she records at home with her producer, that takes the recording costs way down, so she can spend the money on the really important things like plugging and promotion.

Fuck off music industry. Just fuck off.

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Re: Music

Post by Mark James »

https://youtu.be/0UJLtHqPA1E

Song of the year for me.
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Re: Music

Post by Marc Meakin »

Think I will wait for a cover version 😊
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Re: Music

Post by Rhys Benjamin »

Slightly NSFW but this has been stuck in my head for weeks:

Willam Beli - "Unshart My Fart"
Or how about the Club remix featuring dodgy music video?
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Re: Music

Post by Rhys Benjamin »

Thanks to Sophie Ellis Bextor butchering "Crying At The Discoteque" on Strictly Come Dancing It Takes Two the other night, I've now decided to listen to Alcazar's entire back catalogue. Forgot how much I love them.

My recommendations would include:
"Start The Fire"
"Blame It On the Disco"
"Sexual Guarantee"
"Don't You Want Me" - a great cover of the Human League's classic
"Alcastar"
"Not A Sinner Nor A Saint"
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Re: Music

Post by Callum Todd »

Anyone who likes hip-hop should listen to Immortal Technique. The lyrics are at times ridiculous or uncomfortably violent, but it's great music.

Tool are good if you like proggy metaly stuff.

Tim Minchin has an album out now, which has some truly great songs on it.
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Re: Music

Post by Rhys Benjamin »

Not everything is a metaphor for the pandemic, but...

# I just wanna go back, back to 1999... #
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Re: Music

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Re: Music

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Rhys Benjamin wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:26 pm Not everything is a metaphor for the pandemic, but...

# I just wanna go back, back to 1999... #
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Andy Wilson wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:21 pm Still at the music. https://andywilson2.bandcamp.com/album/ ... -the-night
Good to see.
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Re: Music

Post by Rhys Benjamin »

bing bang bong
sing sang song
ding dang dong
uk, hun?

https://www.officialcharts.com/chart-ne ... 40__32450/
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Re: Music

Post by Ian Volante »

Rhys Benjamin wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:39 pm bing bang bong
sing sang song
ding dang dong
uk, hun?

https://www.officialcharts.com/chart-ne ... 40__32450/
Is it based on a Milligan work or something?
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Re: Music

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Listening to a lot of Years & Years recently, sort of "80s meets 10s" and they're quite good.

Difficult to pick a few top ones but here's just 5:

"King" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_uoH6hJilc
"Desire" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nJCF01b510
"Worship" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3TflASAFJI
"Play" feat. Jax Jones - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnwoXZOgkac
"If You're Over Me" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RNXYIsmbeY
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Re: Music

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Surprised I haven't mentioned it in this thread before, but genuinely think that Tron Legacy may have the greatest film soundtrack of all time. It's written by Daft Punk, which I think tells you everything you need to know about it.

Of particular note is "Outlands" (which is currently Sky's F1 theme), "The Game Has Changed", and "Derezzed".
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Re: Music

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Re: Music

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Andy Wilson wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:01 pm More music https://andywilson2.bandcamp.com/album/lines
Which has been as recently as Saturday perfectly, imo categorised as 'Singalong Shoegaze', just to give you an idea of what you might be in for.
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Re: Music

Post by Marc Meakin »

Very rarely are cover versions better than the original.
Valerie by Amy Winehouse being one and here is another.
https://www.google.com/search?q=will+yo ... WWevE,st:0
Not normally a fan of Will Young but his covers album is
very good
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Re: Music

Post by Rhys Benjamin »

Apparently this meme song got played out, straight-faced, on multiple occasions at Zandvoort today... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43HCYSX ... itstopBoys
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Haha. That video's been up for five years as well.
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Re: Music

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It's one thing being up for five years, it's another thing being played over the PA at a Grand Prix...
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Matt Bayfield wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:38 pm I love the Gotye & Kimbra single.

And if we're totting up unlikely number one singles, I'm tossing in The Real Thing by Tony di Bart.
And while we're on the general topic - weirdly bad number 1s that had no business being there - Boombastic by Shaggy. You expect it now, but back in the 90s something more would normally be required.

(Oblique spoiler for today's episode contained within.)
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Re: Music

Post by Mark James »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:05 pm
Matt Bayfield wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:38 pm I love the Gotye & Kimbra single.

And if we're totting up unlikely number one singles, I'm tossing in The Real Thing by Tony di Bart.
And while we're on the general topic - weirdly bad number 1s that had no business being there - Boombastic by Shaggy. You expect it now, but back in the 90s something more would normally be required.

(Oblique spoiler for today's episode contained within.)
No. That was a quintessentially 90s number one in so far as it got famous from being featured in an ad especially, if it was for jeans. You had Stilskin's Inside, Babylon Zoo's " Spacemen", Freak Powers "Tune in turn turn up cop out". It was quids in in the 90s if you could get your song featured in an ad that you could get a hit. Even " the Joker" by Steve Miller band got a resurgence from being in an ad. And if wasn't for jeans it was for diet coke. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Mark James wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:09 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:05 pm
Matt Bayfield wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:38 pm I love the Gotye & Kimbra single.

And if we're totting up unlikely number one singles, I'm tossing in The Real Thing by Tony di Bart.
And while we're on the general topic - weirdly bad number 1s that had no business being there - Boombastic by Shaggy. You expect it now, but back in the 90s something more would normally be required.

(Oblique spoiler for today's episode contained within.)
No. That was a quintessentially 90s number one in so far as it got famous from being featured in an ad especially, if it was for jeans. You had Stilskin's Inside, Babylon Zoo's " Spacemen", Freak Powers "Tune in turn turn up cop out". It was quids in in the 90s if you could get your song featured in an ad that you could get a hit. Even " the Joker" by Steve Miller band got a resurgence from being in an ad. And if wasn't for jeans it was for diet coke. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
I had no idea it was on an advert for jeans. They never showed it on my television. But that would explain it. Being on a film or advert was a way of boosting a song's prospects. I'll move onto You Make me Wanna by Usher instead.

Edit - To be honest, most of these jeans adverts seemed to pass me by. I'm not sure what programmes they were shown during. But the others I'd at least heard were on jeans adverts, but never with Boombastic.
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Re: Music

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Mark James wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:09 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:05 pm
Matt Bayfield wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:38 pm I love the Gotye & Kimbra single.

And if we're totting up unlikely number one singles, I'm tossing in The Real Thing by Tony di Bart.
And while we're on the general topic - weirdly bad number 1s that had no business being there - Boombastic by Shaggy. You expect it now, but back in the 90s something more would normally be required.

(Oblique spoiler for today's episode contained within.)
No. That was a quintessentially 90s number one in so far as it got famous from being featured in an ad especially, if it was for jeans. You had Stilskin's Inside, Babylon Zoo's " Spacemen", Freak Powers "Tune in turn turn up cop out". It was quids in in the 90s if you could get your song featured in an ad that you could get a hit. Even " the Joker" by Steve Miller band got a resurgence from being in an ad. And if wasn't for jeans it was for diet coke. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
That was a great advert (it's the claymation one where the suave hero uses his jeans to slide down a zipwire to escape a burning building (rescuing a girl at the same time of course) and Shaggy's "Boombastic" is a great song. A cool thing about it being a massive worldwide hit was that King Floyd III - whose 1971 track "Baby Let Me Kiss You" (which is prominently sampled in "Boombastic") - was credited as co-writer, so got a nice windfall long after his recording career had ended.

However, I can't now hear "Boombastic" without thinking about Mark Lamarr miming to the track while floating about at the start of one of the episodes of Shooting Stars. I still find this funny just thinking about it.
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Re: Music

Post by Marc Meakin »

Babylon Zoo was great in the advert but a big disappointment as a song.
I quite often refer to films as a Babylon Zoo film if the best bits are in the trailer.
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

JimBentley wrote: Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:25 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:41 pmMuch more than unlikely than a single week at number one is that One Dance by Drake was number one for 15 consecutive weeks in 2016, which is just one fewer than the consecutive record held by Bryan Adams's (Everything I Do) I Do It For You. It's not just that I think fairly unmemorable; I also never hear it anywhere, nor did I when it was number one. Last year, for example, Ed Sheeran's Shape of You and that annoying Despacito song were both number one for ages, but you also heard them everywhere. So how did this song manage this feat?

Edit - This article is relevant. One Dance heavily relied on streaming rather than actual sales (which counts these days), and as far as I understand, some streaming things will pick songs for you, so this is a bit like using air time, which is something the charts never used to do. So I think it's a bit dodgy really. And especially with no Top of the Pops these days, the charts isn't even really a thing any more.
Since streaming became a big component of the chart methodology, the UK singles charts have become much more similar to the US singles charts (which have always included an airplay component and have always been susceptible to record label tampering). Static top fives from week to week aren't really that unusual these days; in the past the beauty of the UK chart was that it moved fast. Not anymore.

There's a reason for that. All three major record labels have significant stakes in Spotify. Spotify accounts for a large proportion of the streaming plays that count towards the chart. 50% of Spotify streams come from playlists. The major (i.e. heavily promoted) Spotify playlists are all backed in one way or another by the three major record labels.

It's just payola, but now it's not only legal, it's celebrated as a fantastic new model.
The charts are just made up these days. It's just whatever song does best under a completely arbitrary set of rules.
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Re: Music

Post by Mark James »

Hail to the Theif is underrated as a Radiohead album.
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Re: Music

Post by Marc Meakin »

Mark James wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:21 pm Hail to the Theif is underrated as a Radiohead album.
I thought after Kid A and Amnesiac I found Hail to the Thief to be a let down apart from the 2 singles.
I love In Rainbows so much more in fact as a body of work it's just about my favourite
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Re: Music

Post by Mark James »

Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:44 pm
Mark James wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:21 pm Hail to the Theif is underrated as a Radiohead album.
I thought after Kid A and Amnesiac I found Hail to the Thief to be a let down apart from the 2 singles.
I love In Rainbows so much more in fact as a body of work it's just about my favourite
Totally disagree. In Rainbows was a disappointment for me and is way overrated. Does it even have a single? I really only liked Faust Arp as a song. I get that an album should be more than the sum of its parts but that's why I think Httt is underrated. I think it demands a listen as a whole work and a re-evaluation. I think In Rainbows got more attention than it deserves because it used the pay as much as you want model. If I was to rank Radiohead albums I would go as follows.

1. OK Computer/The Bends
2. Kid A
4. Hail to the Theif
5. Amnesiac
6. Pablo Honey
7. In Rainbows/King of Limbs/Moon Shaped Pool.

The last three albums for me were much of a muchness. Radiohead by numbers. The b-sides were probably better than what was on the albums. And I can't pick between Ok Computer and The Bends for the top spot.
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Re: Music

Post by Marc Meakin »

I am slightly biased with In Rainbow as I saw them live and they played the whole album.
Never the less I would still put it in a top 3 with The Bends and OK Computer (positions interchange regularly depending on mood)
Followed by Kid A
Amnesiac (which I hated at first but after several plays I grew to love)
Hail to the Thief
Pablo Honey
Bed shaped Pool
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Re: Music

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I very much enjoy OK Computer and In Rainbows, but to me Hail To The Thief I feel also goes right up there. Lemme put my current fav songs from each.

OK Computer - Honestly all of the tracks from OK Computer are great, the ones I'm not particularly fond of compared to others though are Climbing Up The Walls & The Tourist but regardless all of them are wonderful in their own right

In Rainbows - Bodysnatchers, Nude, 15 Step (this version comes from The Basement Sessions), Jigsaw Falling Into Place,

Hail To The Thief - Sit Down Stand Up, Sail To The Moon, Myxomatosis, 2 + 2 = 5


I haven't fully listened to the other albums that there are but there are definitely some good songs off of Kid A and Amnesiac that I could go over also.
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Re: Music

Post by Marc Meakin »

I've just realised that I have recently got over my recent music snobbery, ie there are not many decent new artists that write there own stuff and are manufacured but I realise the likes of Tom Odell, Sigrid, Taylor Swift and Billie Eilish.
I appreciate some of these acts have been around for over 10 years but a lot of theism stuff is new to me.
Thanks to Alexa and YouTube I can re-educate myself
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:13 pm
JimBentley wrote: Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:25 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:41 pmMuch more than unlikely than a single week at number one is that One Dance by Drake was number one for 15 consecutive weeks in 2016, which is just one fewer than the consecutive record held by Bryan Adams's (Everything I Do) I Do It For You. It's not just that I think fairly unmemorable; I also never hear it anywhere, nor did I when it was number one. Last year, for example, Ed Sheeran's Shape of You and that annoying Despacito song were both number one for ages, but you also heard them everywhere. So how did this song manage this feat?

Edit - This article is relevant. One Dance heavily relied on streaming rather than actual sales (which counts these days), and as far as I understand, some streaming things will pick songs for you, so this is a bit like using air time, which is something the charts never used to do. So I think it's a bit dodgy really. And especially with no Top of the Pops these days, the charts isn't even really a thing any more.
Since streaming became a big component of the chart methodology, the UK singles charts have become much more similar to the US singles charts (which have always included an airplay component and have always been susceptible to record label tampering). Static top fives from week to week aren't really that unusual these days; in the past the beauty of the UK chart was that it moved fast. Not anymore.

There's a reason for that. All three major record labels have significant stakes in Spotify. Spotify accounts for a large proportion of the streaming plays that count towards the chart. 50% of Spotify streams come from playlists. The major (i.e. heavily promoted) Spotify playlists are all backed in one way or another by the three major record labels.

It's just payola, but now it's not only legal, it's celebrated as a fantastic new model.
The charts are just made up these days. It's just whatever song does best under a completely arbitrary set of rules.
There was also this BBC article the other day, which shows how artifical the charts are. It's no longer an objective measure of anything. The main highlights:

Artists are limited to three songs in the top 100.

It includes streaming, but this includes "passive" streaming, where people don't select the song themselves. The "official" chart used to specifically not use airplay in their counts, but this is essentially just that, and it got Ellie Goulding to number 1 in 2020 completely spuriously.

And also the Kate Bush scenario in the other article I linked to - older songs have their streams count for less, but they can override that if they feel like it.

I remember when the charts used to be a thing. Not only does no-one pay any attention to it nowadays; it's also, as I said above, essentially just made up. A very sad way for such an institution to go.
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Re: Music

Post by Marc Meakin »

Taping the top twenty, trying to cut out the DJs voice was how I spent my Sunday evenings back in the late seventies.
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Re: Music

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Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:55 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:13 pm
JimBentley wrote: Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:25 pm

Since streaming became a big component of the chart methodology, the UK singles charts have become much more similar to the US singles charts (which have always included an airplay component and have always been susceptible to record label tampering). Static top fives from week to week aren't really that unusual these days; in the past the beauty of the UK chart was that it moved fast. Not anymore.

There's a reason for that. All three major record labels have significant stakes in Spotify. Spotify accounts for a large proportion of the streaming plays that count towards the chart. 50% of Spotify streams come from playlists. The major (i.e. heavily promoted) Spotify playlists are all backed in one way or another by the three major record labels.

It's just payola, but now it's not only legal, it's celebrated as a fantastic new model.
The charts are just made up these days. It's just whatever song does best under a completely arbitrary set of rules.
There was also this BBC article the other day, which shows how artifical the charts are. It's no longer an objective measure of anything. The main highlights:

Artists are limited to three songs in the top 100.

It includes streaming, but this includes "passive" streaming, where people don't select the song themselves. The "official" chart used to specifically not use airplay in their counts, but this is essentially just that, and it got Ellie Goulding to number 1 in 2020 completely spuriously.

And also the Kate Bush scenario in the other article I linked to - older songs have their streams count for less, but they can override that if they feel like it.

I remember when the charts used to be a thing. Not only does no-one pay any attention to it nowadays; it's also, as I said above, essentially just made up. A very sad way for such an institution to go.
What alternative do you propose?
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I don't know how I'd optimise it but I'd get rid of the obvious nonsense like passive streams, rules based on the age of a song and limits on the number of songs per artist.
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Re: Music

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Gavin Chipper wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:12 pm I don't know how I'd optimise it but I'd get rid of the obvious nonsense like passive streams, rules based on the age of a song and limits on the number of songs per artist.
So now you have a situation where Mariah Carey is number 1 each Christmas, the top 10 gets blocked out whenever a hugely popular artist releases an album, and people who hammer the same song 50 times in a row on Spotify have a much bigger impact on the chart than those who listen to playlists.

You're happy with that?
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Jon O'Neill wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:11 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:12 pm I don't know how I'd optimise it but I'd get rid of the obvious nonsense like passive streams, rules based on the age of a song and limits on the number of songs per artist.
So now you have a situation where Mariah Carey is number 1 each Christmas, the top 10 gets blocked out whenever a hugely popular artist releases an album, and people who hammer the same song 50 times in a row on Spotify have a much bigger impact on the chart than those who listen to playlists.

You're happy with that?
No, because if I was running the charts, I would only have admitted streaming in the first place once a sensible protocol was in place. There is some ratio of how much a stream is worth relative to a download. I've not looked into whether that is a sensible ratio based on anything in particular or something just plucked out of thin air. So that's one thing that could be looked at. Also, one person hammering the same song 50 times probably shouldn't count as much as 50 individuals playing it once each. They introduced streaming in a way to get some sort of "equivalence" to buying a song. And in the same way that someone that plays their bought song multiple times doesn't have more influence than someone who plays it just once, someone who spam streams a song shouldn't get undue influence either.

I don't really mind if a popular artist blocks out the top 10 actually. If album tracks are now essentially not distinguishable from singles in any objective way, then that's just the way it is. As for Mariah Carey, well it depends on the numbers and whether I would agree with the streaming ratio.

Obviously it was much simpler in the days when it was just physical purchases of singles but I'm sure we could still find a sensible compromise. We don't have one now.
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

This is an interesting article about the mess.

But I do wonder what bad would happen if you just got rid of streaming from the charts. Sure, lots of people only stream these days, but would there be a particular bias against certain songs? Well presumbly against old songs that people continue to play, including Christmas songs. But does that matter? In the olden days, people might get out their old records to play and they wouldn't count towards the charts and that was fine. No-one used to worry that the amount people played the songs they bought wasn't taken into account.
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Re: Music

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Gavin Chipper wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:55 pm This is an interesting article about the mess.

But I do wonder what bad would happen if you just got rid of streaming from the charts. Sure, lots of people only stream these days, but would there be a particular bias against certain songs? Well presumbly against old songs that people continue to play, including Christmas songs. But does that matter? In the olden days, people might get out their old records to play and they wouldn't count towards the charts and that was fine. No-one used to worry that the amount people played the songs they bought wasn't taken into account.
The charts would be a joke if they didn't somehow include streaming because they'd be hugely biased towards those who only buy physical media, which will be demographically unrepresentative of the population of music consumers. It would just be the chart for weirdos.

It's easy to criticise the current system and I agree with you, but you must surely have a proposed approach that is better than the current system. I don't think anyone sane would agree that a top 10 of Ed Sheeran album tracks every month and Mariah Carey at number 1 for 2 months a year is an improvement.
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Jon O'Neill wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:34 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:55 pm This is an interesting article about the mess.

But I do wonder what bad would happen if you just got rid of streaming from the charts. Sure, lots of people only stream these days, but would there be a particular bias against certain songs? Well presumbly against old songs that people continue to play, including Christmas songs. But does that matter? In the olden days, people might get out their old records to play and they wouldn't count towards the charts and that was fine. No-one used to worry that the amount people played the songs they bought wasn't taken into account.
The charts would be a joke if they didn't somehow include streaming because they'd be hugely biased towards those who only buy physical media, which will be demographically unrepresentative of the population of music consumers. It would just be the chart for weirdos.

It's easy to criticise the current system and I agree with you, but you must surely have a proposed approach that is better than the current system. I don't think anyone sane would agree that a top 10 of Ed Sheeran album tracks every month and Mariah Carey at number 1 for 2 months a year is an improvement.
Well downloads aren't physical, and I don't think people who download music are that weird. But I'd be interested to know how much difference it would make to demographic representation if streaming was excluded. What particular genres of music would suffer etc.

But anyway I totally understand the problem, but obviously if I was in charge of this I'd have a lot more data to work with. But I still say there's no reason to include passive streaming regardless. It's just the same as radio airplay. So that's one improvement straight off.

Also with streaming, if it's to be seen like buying, each account could be limited in the amount it can contribute towards the "sales". E.g. no more than one sale. And also time limited. You wouldn't buy the same record across multiple chart weeks, so once an account has played a song, it could have a 7-day counting window. After that, that account would no longer contribute to the chart placing of that song. These are just some ideas, and perhaps they could be refined. Don't take anything in this paragraph as my definitive view.

But stuff like excluding songs from artists and deweighting older songs just comes across as a fudge to make the charts look better. But is that valid? You're just hiding from the facts. You could also imagine a scenario where an artist has a really popular song that lasts over time but is consistently around their fourth most downloaded/streamed at any given time. So in a chart of the year it should be number 1, but in the weekly chart it might have barely featured at all.
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Re: Music

Post by Marc Meakin »

Can't there just be seperate charts for streamed and downloaded music.
I mean to equate it to the past then downloads represents singles and albums and streaming is like listening to the top 20 on the radio
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Marc Meakin wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:39 am Can't there just be seperate charts for streamed and downloaded music.
I mean to equate it to the past then downloads represents singles and albums and streaming is like listening to the top 20 on the radio
If you go to the official charts page, you can look at downloads, streaming etc. separately (although it's quite unwieldy). But there is still one "main" chart for the week and that's the one people would pay attention to (if they paid attention at all).
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Re: Music

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I've just been having a look at the different charts. Number 1 overall right now is Anti-Hero by Taylor Swift. But number 1 on sales is Sweet Caroline by Tyson Fury. But it's only number 22 on downloads and not even in the top 100 in the main chart! For the avoidance of doubt, sales isn't just physical sales (e.g. CDs, vinyl) - it includes downloads. If you go to physical sales, it is number 1 anyway though. It might be specific to this song in this week but physical sales are largely responsible for the number 1 in the sales chart, which I find surprising. It also seems that sales are essentially irrelevant in the main chart, since something can be number 1 in sales but nowhere overall. Or they've fucked up somewhere. If you look at the streaming chart versus the main chart, there are quite a few differences, which you wouldn't expect given that the main chart equals streaming plus sales and sales are irrelevant enough for the number 1 in sales to not make the top 100 in the main chart.

I don't trust this shit at all.
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Re: Music

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Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:08 am I've just been having a look at the different charts. Number 1 overall right now is Anti-Hero by Taylor Swift. But number 1 on sales is Sweet Caroline by Tyson Fury. But it's only number 22 on downloads and not even in the top 100 in the main chart! For the avoidance of doubt, sales isn't just physical sales (e.g. CDs, vinyl) - it includes downloads. If you go to physical sales, it is number 1 anyway though. It might be specific to this song in this week but physical sales are largely responsible for the number 1 in the sales chart, which I find surprising. It also seems that sales are essentially irrelevant in the main chart, since something can be number 1 in sales but nowhere overall. Or they've fucked up somewhere. If you look at the streaming chart versus the main chart, there are quite a few differences, which you wouldn't expect given that the main chart equals streaming plus sales and sales are irrelevant enough for the number 1 in sales to not make the top 100 in the main chart.

I don't trust this shit at all.
Tbh
The charts or the top 40 as it was known should be confined to the history books like "pulling the chain" when you have finished your shit rather than pressing or pulling the handle.

Saying Albums or singles, when you mean downloads
Record collection when you don't mean physical media.
Turning the telly over.
Wireless, for DAB radio etc
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Re: Music

Post by Callum Todd »

I sort of get Gavin's point here in relation to 'buying' vs 'listening'.

Back in the day if you went to a record store and bought a new single it counted the same on the charts whether you took the record home and played it once, or a hundred times over.
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Re: Music

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I think paying for downloads is almost as mental as buying physical music.
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