Capitalism

Discuss anything interesting but not remotely Countdown-related here.

Moderator: Jon O'Neill

Post Reply
User avatar
George F. Jenkins
Rookie
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:42 pm

Capitalism

Post by George F. Jenkins » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:06 pm

Carl Marx foretold that Capitalism, having no solid base, would collapse in itself. Capitalism must always generate growth, causing constantly rising prices coupled with currency losing value, which then generates the need to obtain more of it in order to live. Considering the financial plight of the banks, and the massive debt incurred to save them, was he right?

User avatar
Charlie Reams
Site Admin
Posts: 9471
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:33 pm
Location: Cambridge
Contact:

Re: Capitalism

Post by Charlie Reams » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:46 am

How's North Korea looking these days?

User avatar
John Bosley
Enthusiast
Posts: 380
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: Huddersfield

Re: Capitalism

Post by John Bosley » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:05 am

Charlie Reams wrote:How's North Korea looking these days?
One wrong does not make any rights. :)

User avatar
George F. Jenkins
Rookie
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:42 pm

Re: Capitalism

Post by George F. Jenkins » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:07 am

Charlie Reams wrote:How's North Korea looking these days?
I believe that I read it somewhere Charlie, that in North Korea, Cocoa Cola was the most common advert. We mustn't let our contempt for a different Ideology get in the way of profit.

Ryan Taylor
Postmaster General
Posts: 3661
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: Capitalism

Post by Ryan Taylor » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:34 am

George F. Jenkins wrote:Cocoa Cola
You've given me an idea...Duncan Bannatyne here I come.

Edit: Oh crap the Dragon's Den has closed for another year. Fuck.

User avatar
Charlie Reams
Site Admin
Posts: 9471
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:33 pm
Location: Cambridge
Contact:

Re: Capitalism

Post by Charlie Reams » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:41 pm

George F. Jenkins wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote:How's North Korea looking these days?
I believe that I read it somewhere Charlie, that in North Korea, Cocoa Cola was the most common advert. We mustn't let our contempt for a different Ideology get in the way of profit.
You're right, sugary soft drinks are the biggest problem facing North Korea today. No wonder they have an obesity epidemic.

Jeff Clayton
Enthusiast
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:47 pm

Re: Capitalism

Post by Jeff Clayton » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:50 pm

George F. Jenkins wrote:Carl Marx foretold that Capitalism, having no solid base, would collapse in itself. Capitalism must always generate growth, causing constantly rising prices coupled with currency losing value, which then generates the need to obtain more of it in order to live. Considering the financial plight of the banks, and the massive debt incurred to save them, was he right?
I don't think it has collapsed. The FTSE 100 has been buoyant of late, its current value of around 5500 isn't a far cry from its all-time high of just shy of 7000 (in 1999), and some parts of the public sector could learn a thing or two about efficiency.

Just because some of the banks - not all of them - behaved irresponsibly doesn't mean that businesses also did or do.

David Williams
Kiloposter
Posts: 1060
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:57 pm

Re: Capitalism

Post by David Williams » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:18 am

George F. Jenkins wrote:I believe that I read it somewhere Charlie, that in North Korea, Cocoa Cola was the most common advert. We mustn't let our contempt for a different Ideology get in the way of profit.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/2485992393/

User avatar
George F. Jenkins
Rookie
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:42 pm

Re: Capitalism

Post by George F. Jenkins » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:46 pm

Jeff Clayton wrote:
George F. Jenkins wrote:Carl Marx foretold that Capitalism, having no solid base, would collapse in itself. Capitalism must always generate growth, causing constantly rising prices coupled with currency losing value, which then generates the need to obtain more of it in order to live. Considering the financial plight of the banks, and the massive debt incurred to save them, was he right?
I don't think it has collapsed. The FTSE 100 has been buoyant of late, its current value of around 5500 isn't a far cry from its all-time high of just shy of 7000 (in 1999), and some parts of the public sector could learn a thing or two about efficiency.

Just because some of the banks - not all of them - behaved irresponsibly doesn't mean that businesses also did or do.
I like and apreciate your answer Jeff. But I understand that the possible collapse of banking is world wide, with the interest on money borrowed to prop them up running into millions of pounds. We hear of banks refusing to lend money for mortgages etc, for which I thought they existed for. I can only go by the news we hear, or is it exagerated for gloom and doom effect

User avatar
George F. Jenkins
Rookie
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:42 pm

Re: Capitalism

Post by George F. Jenkins » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:46 pm

Jeff Clayton wrote:
George F. Jenkins wrote:Carl Marx foretold that Capitalism, having no solid base, would collapse in itself. Capitalism must always generate growth, causing constantly rising prices coupled with currency losing value, which then generates the need to obtain more of it in order to live. Considering the financial plight of the banks, and the massive debt incurred to save them, was he right?
I don't think it has collapsed. The FTSE 100 has been buoyant of late, its current value of around 5500 isn't a far cry from its all-time high of just shy of 7000 (in 1999), and some parts of the public sector could learn a thing or two about efficiency.

Just because some of the banks - not all of them - behaved irresponsibly doesn't mean that businesses also did or do.
I like and apreciate your answer Jeff. But I understand that the possible collapse of banking is world wide, with the interest on money borrowed to prop them up running into millions of pounds. We hear of banks refusing to lend money for mortgages etc, for which I thought they existed for. I can only go by the news we hear, or is it exagerated for gloom and doom effect

User avatar
Charlie Reams
Site Admin
Posts: 9471
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:33 pm
Location: Cambridge
Contact:

Re: Capitalism

Post by Charlie Reams » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:12 pm

George F. Jenkins wrote:the interest on money borrowed to prop them up running into millions of pounds
:lol:

User avatar
Lesley Hines
Kiloposter
Posts: 1250
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:29 pm
Location: Worcester

Re: Capitalism

Post by Lesley Hines » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:17 pm

Charlie Reams wrote:
George F. Jenkins wrote:the interest on money borrowed to prop them up running into millions of pounds
:lol:
There is always a better answer.
Lowering the averages since 2009

User avatar
Kai Laddiman
Fanatic
Posts: 2314
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:37 pm
Location: My bedroom

Re: Capitalism

Post by Kai Laddiman » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:22 pm

IS THIS CAPITALISM?
16/10/2007 - Episode 4460
Dinos Sfyris 76 - 78 Dorian Lidell
Proof that even idiots can get well and truly mainwheeled.

David O'Donnell
Series 58 Champion
Posts: 2010
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:27 pm
Location: Cardiff

Re: Capitalism

Post by David O'Donnell » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:23 pm

George F. Jenkins wrote:Carl Marx foretold that Capitalism, having no solid base, would collapse in itself. Capitalism must always generate growth, causing constantly rising prices coupled with currency losing value, which then generates the need to obtain more of it in order to live. Considering the financial plight of the banks, and the massive debt incurred to save them, was he right?
Any relation to Karl Marx?

As for variations in the FTSE it has been regularly popping between 2200 and 8000 every seven years: boom and bust, anyone?

What is the real problem with capitalism?

It introduces a medium by which value is assessed and this medium may lose/gain value independently of the value of the thing-in-itself. It's introduces the spectre of speculation in what were previously held to be concrete values.

My height is 5' 7" (no sniggering at the back) and let's assume some people think the notion of my height is a commodity in which we may invest. Some photos are posted that suggest my height is considerably shorter (I am standing next to Tom Cruise and look like a garden gnome) so investors are advised that my stock is worthless and pull out the funds; conversely, I am photographed with Shaquille O'Neill as he looks up at me in wonderment so investors think I have been undervalued and murder their wife (make it look like suicide) and claim the insurance so they can invest every last penny in my stock: have I ceased to be 5'7"? No, the introduction of a medium for determining value has made it easier for people to mobilise value and speculate upon its future trends.

The command system has weaknesses too: it does not have a mechanism that accurately ascribes value to various attributes (omfg, it's the same weakness!! lol iawt imho etc bs). The government determines value and while this does not endure the ignominy of market conditions it is open to abuse. Even if it weren't and we all value each attribute the same like my being 5'7" and Shaq being 7'1" it's hard to understand Shaq's motivation if he's considered as valuable a basketball player as me.

The bright side

Every economy in the world is aware of this dichotomy and strives for balance between the two.


Karl Marx is right but then he isn't; Milton Friedman is right but then he isn't: the real question is not which dead philosopher/economist got it right but what balance is right?

I really don't have a fucking clue.

User avatar
Charlie Reams
Site Admin
Posts: 9471
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:33 pm
Location: Cambridge
Contact:

Re: Capitalism

Post by Charlie Reams » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:41 pm

David O'Donnell wrote:Any relation to Karl Marx?
I resisted pointing this out, I thought the arguments presented were bad enough in themselves...

David O'Donnell
Series 58 Champion
Posts: 2010
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:27 pm
Location: Cardiff

Re: Capitalism

Post by David O'Donnell » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:04 pm

Charlie Reams wrote:
David O'Donnell wrote:Any relation to Karl Marx?
I resisted pointing this out, I thought the arguments presented were bad enough in themselves...
I dunno, that argument is pretty much the standard union one. Given that Mr Jenkins is probably a trade unionist (no offence if I have this wrong) with the standard Marxist message it's actually not a complete misrepresentation of Marx's. Put it this way: I'd rather have a pint with him than some cunt who works on Canary Wharf.

User avatar
Charlie Reams
Site Admin
Posts: 9471
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:33 pm
Location: Cambridge
Contact:

Re: Capitalism

Post by Charlie Reams » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:18 pm

David O'Donnell wrote: Given that Mr Jenkins is probably a trade unionist
He advertised being rich when it suited his purposes for that particular argument, so I dunno.

Incidentally at Cambridge there are two rival Marxist reading groups who have splintered over some minor issue and thereby diluted whatever limited effect they might hope to have. Also they're run by rich public school types. Mmm, synecdoche.

David O'Donnell
Series 58 Champion
Posts: 2010
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:27 pm
Location: Cardiff

Re: Capitalism

Post by David O'Donnell » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:37 pm

Charlie Reams wrote:
David O'Donnell wrote: Given that Mr Jenkins is probably a trade unionist
He advertised being rich when it suited his purposes for that particular argument, so I dunno.

Incidentally at Cambridge there are two rival Marxist reading groups who have splintered over some minor issue and thereby diluted whatever limited effect they might hope to have. Also they're run by rich public school types. Mmm, synecdoche.
Well, he has earned the right to be a rich pensioner, not sure how that dilutes his argument of being a poor rail trade unionist back in the day.

As for Marxist groups who splinter ... best result: couldn't be splintered enough: turns out Marxism is dangerous though not quite as dangerous as unlimited free trade.

David Roe
Enthusiast
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:58 pm

Re: Capitalism

Post by David Roe » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:22 pm

David O'Donnell wrote:What is the real problem with capitalism?

It introduces a medium by which value is assessed and this medium may lose/gain value independently of the value of the thing-in-itself. It's introduces the spectre of speculation in what were previously held to be concrete values.
But didn't this arise right from Capitalist Day 1, when Ig the caveman offered Ug 1 rabbit skin for a meal of buffalo meat? There was always the chance that Og might offer a wife instead, thus inflating (or possibly reducing) the value of buffalo.

David O'Donnell
Series 58 Champion
Posts: 2010
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:27 pm
Location: Cardiff

Re: Capitalism

Post by David O'Donnell » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:55 am

David Roe wrote:
David O'Donnell wrote:What is the real problem with capitalism?

It introduces a medium by which value is assessed and this medium may lose/gain value independently of the value of the thing-in-itself. It's introduces the spectre of speculation in what were previously held to be concrete values.
But didn't this arise right from Capitalist Day 1, when Ig the caveman offered Ug 1 rabbit skin for a meal of buffalo meat? There was always the chance that Og might offer a wife instead, thus inflating (or possibly reducing) the value of buffalo.
My point was that there is no purely free-market or command economy.

Though, I agree, once a medium for value is introduced there are a multitude of new problems that arise. The same thing happens with language: it's supposed to be something we use to express ourselves but language can become something that determines the parameters of our expression.

User avatar
George F. Jenkins
Rookie
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:42 pm

Re: Capitalism

Post by George F. Jenkins » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:50 pm

Charlie Reams wrote:
David O'Donnell wrote:Any relation to Karl Marx?
I resisted pointing this out, I thought the arguments presented were bad enough in themselves...
Oops! Sorry Charlie, I had the English version of the name Karl in my mind, and do you mean that the subject was bad, or the answers it generated.

User avatar
George F. Jenkins
Rookie
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:42 pm

Re: Capitalism

Post by George F. Jenkins » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:50 pm

David O'Donnell wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote:
David O'Donnell wrote:Any relation to Karl Marx?
I resisted pointing this out, I thought the arguments presented were bad enough in themselves...
I dunno, that argument is pretty much the standard union one. Given that Mr Jenkins is probably a trade unionist (no offence if I have this wrong) with the standard Marxist message it's actually not a complete misrepresentation of Marx's. Put it this way: I'd rather have a pint with him than some cunt who works on Canary Wharf.
I was a trade unionist David, and a branch secretary. I resigned from that position when a member asked me to meet the management about a complaint that he had. I did that and the Shed Master explained to me how that driver was wrong. He then gave me some advice. If a driver or fireman complained, tell them to put their complaint in writing. So I did, and I suddenly became known as an arrogant, know all, know nothing bastard. Up to that time I'd attended eleven monthly branch meetings with all the latest news from head office to read to the men, but not a single member turned up. So much for the untrue reputation of militant engine drivers. I chucked it in on the twelfth month. as for politics I am a labour man, of the 1945 kind of labour party. Definitely not new labour. As for communism. We had only one communist at my depot, Hither Green. we liked to get him going on workers solidarity etc. Being rich? I feel rich because we have no debts and the mortgage is paid up. The money we have is our pensions mounting up in the bank because we have everything we need for a home. We have just bought three new television sets, one for each room, and the new digital and high definition sets are lovely to watch. I must confess that the bank balance swelled when I sold our car for £1400, because I was no longer safe driving. We are lucky that we get free train travel, but don't forget that this was calculated in any cost of living wage rises, so over the years it was paid for out of wages that we should have got.

David O'Donnell
Series 58 Champion
Posts: 2010
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:27 pm
Location: Cardiff

Re: Capitalism

Post by David O'Donnell » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:44 pm

George F. Jenkins wrote:
but don't forget that this was calculated in any cost of living wage rises, so over the years it was paid for out of wages that we should have got.
I don't think anyone would begrudge you a comfortable retirement, George.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests