The C4C Football Thread

[Marc Meakin]

Messi wont go down as an all time great until he wins a Copa Anerica or World Cup.
Ronaldo has won a major international trophy.

[Gavin Chipper]

But it's not entirely within a player's hands is it? What if the greatest player was from San Marino?

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

https://www.spiegel.de/international/eu ... 41349.html

Noel!
Stop trying to ruin Ronaldo on me...
Next you'll be telling me Hazard is a child murderer and Verratti a vicious mafia don.

[Marc Meakin]

But it's not entirely within a player's hands is it? What if the greatest player was from San Marino?

True, George Best being the best example of this.
I think i would plump for Ronaldo as he has won trophies in 3 different leagues and has won more trophies than Messi

[Phil H]

I'm Messi and arse if anyone's interested.

[Phil H]

Ronaldo has won more trophies than Messi

Not so.

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

...and arsemen to prefer Ronaldo.

Love it!

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

Looks like the dream fixture may be closer than we think...
Are England set to go out to the Germans on penos as soon as the Round of 16?!
Wonderful!

[Noel Mc]

Messi wont go down as an all time great until he wins a Copa Anerica or World Cup.
Ronaldo has won a major international trophy.

(Prefacing this with the futility that people don't change minds on this)

I always find this argument ridiculous.

Ronaldo won Euro 2016, the team won one game in 90 minutes, he went off injured early in the first half.

Messi lost 3 finals in a row (2014 WC, 2015 CA, 2016 CA). In every final, Argentina had a clear cut chance (ironically falling to Higuain each time) which was missed.

The argument that, if just one of those chances had been converted, that would make Messi equal (or better) to Ronaldo just seems so dumb.

[Noel Mc]

Hazard
Verratti

Verratti, I can see that he is very clearly a beautiful man.

Hazard though, really?

[Marc Meakin]

Looks like the dream fixture may be closer than we think...
Are England set to go out to the Germans on penos as soon as the Round of 16?!
Wonderful!

Portugal is the game i want.
Revenge for 2004

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

Verratti, I can see that he is very clearly a beautiful man.

Hazard though, really?

haha... It takes all sorts, I suppose.
I haven't given it much thought... just like him that way.
Handsome face, nice shape, moves well - you can tell he'd be good in the sack.
It is a rich tapestry!

Speaking of Hazard & Verratti... potential BEL-ITA clash in the quarterfinals. A match worthy of a final. I'm guessing whichever team comes out of that unscathed is gonna take the trophy.

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

What do we reckon... anyone want to make some predictions for the knock-out stages?
Seems a bit lop-sided, the top half (left hand side) being chock-a-block with heavy hitters.

[Marc Meakin]

Ok then i will give my predictions.
To go through are Belgium 3-2, Italy 2-0, France 1-0, Croatia 2-2 win on penalties.
Sweden 1-0, England 1-0, Netherlands 2-1, Wales 1-1 win on Penalties

[Callum Todd]

England vs Wales semifinal. It's coming home!

[Noel Mc]

It's always around this time of year that my faint Italian heritage comes to the fore...

[Marc Meakin]

It's always around this time of year that my faint Italian heritage comes to the fore...

When they meet a decent team they will lose

[Noel Mc]

It's always around this time of year that my faint Italian heritage comes to the fore...

When they meet a decent team they will lose

Very possibly! The thing is though, that's mostly based in conjecture, they've shown no weakness whatsoever though. Most other teams have though, especially France, Portugal, Germany, England,, Spain (albeit without Busquets), Belgium (without De Bruyne)

[Thomas Carey]

It's always around this time of year that my faint Italian heritage comes to the fore...

It's around this time that my not-so-faint German heritage is going to make the next week very fun

[Gavin Chipper]

It's always around this time of year that my faint Italian heritage comes to the fore...

It's around this time that my not-so-faint German heritage is going to make the next week very fun

Ooh, this sounds like fun. Are India still in this?

[Mark James]

It's around this time my Irish heritage wants England to lose in some hilarious fashion. At least you've no one as loathsome as Steven Gerrard in the team where I hope they slip or score an og, and you haven't been drawn against a minnow like Iceland but a peno shoot out loss to the Germans will suffice.

[Fred Mumford]

Yet when, for example, Republic of Ireland were in the finals and England weren't (eg World Cup 1994), the media seemed to expect the English to cheer for the Ireland team. Why on earth would we? Yes I know a lot of the squad were basically English and Scots with somewhat distant (if any?) Irish connections - maybe that was it. Oh yeah, I forgot Jack Charlton was still in charge then. Never mind, I've answered my own question.

[Marc Meakin]

Yet when, for example, Republic of Ireland were in the finals and England weren't (eg World Cup 1994), the media seemed to expect the English to cheer for the Ireland team. Why on earth would we? Yes I know a lot of the squad were basically English and Scots with somewhat distant (if any?) Irish connections - maybe that was it. Oh yeah, I forgot Jack Charlton was still in charge then. Never mind, I've answered my own question.

Back in the days when FAI stood for find another Irishman.
Its gone in the other direction a bit now with both Rice and serial turf diver Grealish choosing England despite their Irish heritage
Mind you the Replic of Ireland football team are a Joke atm

[Phil H]

Belgium (without De Bruyne)

Is having to come from behind against Denmark any worse than "only" narrowly beating ten-man Wales?

I'd expect a right good match between Belgium and Italy if both make the quarters, and personally I prefer the best players to beat the best systems, i.e. Belgium to win. A few teams capable of going on a run in the other half - I wouldn't be that surprised if Sweden make the semi-finals.

[Noel Mc]

Belgium (without De Bruyne)

Is having to come from behind against Denmark any worse than "only" narrowly beating ten-man Wales?

I'd expect a right good match between Belgium and Italy if both make the quarters, and personally I prefer the best players to beat the best systems, i.e. Belgium to win. A few teams capable of going on a run in the other half - I wouldn't be that surprised if Sweden make the semi-finals.

I suppose, although Italy never really looked too troubled and rested a good few players. But yea, I agree, Belgium/Italy would be a cracker, pity it'll be QF.

Yea, Sweden could go far. I watch quite a lot of Spanish football and (because im so cool and hipster) had told my friends to keep an eye out for Alexander Isak. Super player.

[Mark James]

I was shouting for England at the last World Cup when they had that kind of underdog tag and there was no expectations. I like most of their players and the manager and would like to see them do well but the media and a certain fan element just becomes insufferable as soon as they think England have a chance. Then they heap pressure on the team and it just becomes funny when they inevitably fail.

[Fred Mumford]

I know what you mean, it can get a bit cringeworthy when the media/fans get carried away. You would think history would have taught them to be a bit more circumspect. Pessimistic even. The 0-0 defeat to Scotland seemed to slow the hype train briefly, but no doubt it'll be in full swing again come Tuesday.

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

Better than Messi!

[Gavin Chipper]

Better than Messi!

He's the one that scored? He did none of the work for it other than run up the pitch! I could have done that! Surely there are better examples!

[Marc Meakin]

I think the difference between Ronalso and Messi is Messi is a natural talent but Ronaldo has worked so hard to get wjere he is

[Phil H]

I think the difference between Ronalso and Messi is Messi is a natural talent but Ronaldo has worked so hard to get wjere he is

One of the biggest myths going. There's no way Messi would have achieved the consistency he has without constantly working on it, and nor would the 17-year-old Ronaldo have been able to run rings round Manchester United in the game that made Ferguson sign him if he lacked natural talent.

[Callum Todd]

Better than Messi!

He's the one that scored? He did none of the work for it other than run up the pitch! I could have done that! Surely there are better examples!

By Ronaldo's standards it doesn't stand out at all as a particularly good piece of play, but it's far better than you have suggested. Football is about so much more than the guy kicking the ball at any given moment. Ronaldo anticipated the counter attack, and the type of it, as soon as his feet left the ground to head away the initial corner. While everyone else on the pitch was thinking about attacking/defending a corner, Ronaldo was already mentally in the next phase of play. To have that awareness as well as the physicality to act on it fruitfully at the age of 36 against one of the younger and fittest teams in the world is impressive. But yeah, it wouldn't make a '100 best Ronaldo moments' list.

I think the difference between Ronalso and Messi is Messi is a natural talent but Ronaldo has worked so hard to get wjere he is

One of the biggest myths going. There's no way Messi would have achieved the consistency he has without constantly working on it, and nor would the 17-year-old Ronaldo have been able to run rings round Manchester United in the game that made Ferguson sign him if he lacked natural talent.

Yep. Also pretty silly if anyone believes that anyone could reach the level(s) Messi and Ronaldo have without being extreme outliers in both talent and work ethic.

There's been loads of super natural talents during Ronaldo and Messi's era. Taraabt, Ben Arfa, Balotelli, Morrison all spring to mind. And there've been plenty of extreme hard workers, with James Milner being a good example out of the many thousands who fit that bill. Ronaldo and Messi are the ones that get debated for the best in the world because they are at the upper extreme of both measures.

[Gavin Chipper]

Better than Messi!

He's the one that scored? He did none of the work for it other than run up the pitch! I could have done that! Surely there are better examples!

By Ronaldo's standards it doesn't stand out at all as a particularly good piece of play, but it's far better than you have suggested. Football is about so much more than the guy kicking the ball at any given moment. Ronaldo anticipated the counter attack, and the type of it, as soon as his feet left the ground to head away the initial corner. While everyone else on the pitch was thinking about attacking/defending a corner, Ronaldo was already mentally in the next phase of play. To have that awareness as well as the physicality to act on it fruitfully at the age of 36 against one of the younger and fittest teams in the world is impressive. But yeah, it wouldn't make a '100 best Ronaldo moments' list.

Yeah, I mean I was obviously exaggerating, and I'd agree with the general analysis.

I think the difference between Ronalso and Messi is Messi is a natural talent but Ronaldo has worked so hard to get wjere he is

One of the biggest myths going. There's no way Messi would have achieved the consistency he has without constantly working on it, and nor would the 17-year-old Ronaldo have been able to run rings round Manchester United in the game that made Ferguson sign him if he lacked natural talent.

Yep. Also pretty silly if anyone believes that anyone could reach the level(s) Messi and Ronaldo have without being extreme outliers in both talent and work ethic.

There's been loads of super natural talents during Ronaldo and Messi's era. Taraabt, Ben Arfa, Balotelli, Morrison all spring to mind. And there've been plenty of extreme hard workers, with James Milner being a good example out of the many thousands who fit that bill. Ronaldo and Messi are the ones that get debated for the best in the world because they are at the upper extreme of both measures.

I always think the talent / work ethic thing is an interesting discussion. And I don't think they're the only factors. There is also how your talent was developed when you were younger. And presumably once you're a professional, you do all the training you're made to do by your coaching team and you would take it seriously. Maybe decades ago, some players would be off smoking and drinking when they got the chance, but I doubt that's the case at all now. So work ethic shouldn't be that much of an issue once you reach a certain level.

And in terms of development of talent, that's presumably why you see all the "talented" players coming from certain countries. You get loads of "geniuses" coming out of e.g. Brazil. Well, I doubt it's a genetic thing. It's likely to be how they're trained from an early age.

And going off on a wild tangent, a lot of people are impressed with e.g. top distance runners and the dedication and training that goes into it. And I'm going to stick my neck out and say that's it's easier for them than it is for a jobbing runner (like me) who has no particular talent but wants to reach a certain standard. The jobbing runner is basically on their own. They have to motivate themselves to go out running and push themselves, whether they particularly feel like it or not and whether it's a nice day or pissing it down. No-one will say anything if they just decide to stay in bed one morning. And this is all just to beat Joe Bloggs at the parkrun next week. But the professional runner has a whole team around them, telling them everything they have to do and they're there to shout at them if they think they're slacking. There's no room not to have the right work ethic.

[Callum Todd]

I always think the talent / work ethic thing is an interesting discussion. And I don't think they're the only factors. There is also how your talent was developed when you were younger. And presumably once you're a professional, you do all the training you're made to do by your coaching team and you would take it seriously. Maybe decades ago, some players would be off smoking and drinking when they got the chance, but I doubt that's the case at all now. So work ethic shouldn't be that much of an issue once you reach a certain level.

And in terms of development of talent, that's presumably why you see all the "talented" players coming from certain countries. You get loads of "geniuses" coming out of e.g. Brazil. Well, I doubt it's a genetic thing. It's likely to be how they're trained from an early age.

And going off on a wild tangent, a lot of people are impressed with e.g. top distance runners and the dedication and training that goes into it. And I'm going to stick my neck out and say that's it's easier for them than it is for a jobbing runner (like me) who has no particular talent but wants to reach a certain standard. The jobbing runner is basically on their own. They have to motivate themselves to go out running and push themselves, whether they particularly feel like it or not and whether it's a nice day or pissing it down. No-one will say anything if they just decide to stay in bed one morning. And this is all just to beat Joe Bloggs at the parkrun next week. But the professional runner has a whole team around them, telling them everything they have to do and they're there to shout at them if they think they're slacking. There's no room not to have the right work ethic.

Oh they are by no means the only factors. I was just addressing them as they were the two that had been raised (by Marc). You make a very good point about the harnessing of talent in youth: that might be the most important of the many nets that people have to go through on their journey from being a newborn who can't yet walk to an Olympic gold-winning adult.

Your final paragraph seems to revolve around motivation. I hear a lot of people say things like 'motivation can only come from within' or 'the only person who can motivate you is you' and so on and I think there's a bit of truth to that but it's clearly missing a large chunk of the story. Maybe it would be better to say that motivation is basically internal but it can be largely (and even primarily) inspired and then nurtured by external forces. Maybe this is a chicken/egg debate but at the least I'd say there's the potential for a positive feedback loop here so motivation would definitely be driven much better when surrounded by external forces (such as coaches) than for a "jobber" having to motivate themselves alone. There's also the fact that your motivation to run better/faster is just that, whereas a professional can also apply the motivation that most people have to make money/have a more successful career to their running.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but it seems to me your argument is the opposite extreme (motivation is all external rather than all internal, or at least with sufficient external stimulus the point of diminishing returns for internal motivation is very low). I disagree. I know nothing about competitive athletics so maybe runners are different, but in all the sports I follow there are clear examples of individuals who are more driven/motivation/have a better work ethic than others in similar or even identical situations with regards to their level and the team they have around them.

Mario Balotelli and James Milner played in the same Manchester City team. Balotelli is younger and is clearly much more naturally gifted than Milner. Since they were both substitutes on the day they won their first Premier League title with Manchester City, Milner has won two more Premier Leagues and a Champions League, and is still playing at the very top level of English football at age 35. Balotelli, now age 30, has won precisely nothing since, and, other than two promising seasons at Nice from 2016-18, has spent that time enduring several brief and disappointing stints at the last few European top tier clubs willing to take a chance on him, and is now playing in the Italian second division.

[Gavin Chipper]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but it seems to me your argument is the opposite extreme (motivation is all external rather than all internal, or at least with sufficient external stimulus the point of diminishing returns for internal motivation is very low). I disagree. I know nothing about competitive athletics so maybe runners are different, but in all the sports I follow there are clear examples of individuals who are more driven/motivation/have a better work ethic than others in similar or even identical situations with regards to their level and the team they have around them.

Well, I dunno. I suppose it seems to me that motivation should be a lot easier for someone once they reach professional level. Obviously there will still be some individual differences though.

Mario Balotelli and James Milner played in the same Manchester City team. Balotelli is younger and is clearly much more naturally gifted than Milner. Since they were both substitutes on the day they won their first Premier League title with Manchester City, Milner has won two more Premier Leagues and a Champions League, and is still playing at the very top level of English football at age 35. Balotelli, now age 30, has won precisely nothing since, and, other than two promising seasons at Nice from 2016-18, has spent that time enduring several brief and disappointing stints at the last few European top tier clubs willing to take a chance on him, and is now playing in the Italian second division.

Winning stuff in football is down to circumstances as well though. I don't know anything about these players really, but would Balotelli necessarily have got his teams to win titles if he as just one person had been better motivated or disciplined?

Maybe Balotelli has let himself down, but I maintain that it should be not that hard not to let yourself down if you're a professional sports player playing the game you love.

[Phil H]

would Balotelli necessarily have got his teams to win titles if he as just one person had been better motivated or disciplined?

Not so much that he would have got lesser teams to win titles, but that he might have been coveted by teams full of other top-tier players. Callum on good form in the last few posts IMO.

[Gavin Chipper]

Callum on good form in the last few posts IMO.

What is that down to though?

[Phil H]

What is that down to though?

[Marc Meakin]

One thing thats irrefutable is that natural talent without hard work and dedication usually means a players star may burn twice as bright but only half as long.
Like the Gazzas , Ballotellis and George Best

[Noel Mc]

One thing thats irrefutable is that natural talent without hard work and dedication usually means a players star may burn twice as bright but only half as long.
Like the Gazzas , Ballotellis and George Best

Ronaldinho

[Marc Meakin]

One thing thats irrefutable is that natural talent without hard work and dedication usually means a players star may burn twice as bright but only half as long.
Like the Gazzas , Ballotellis and George Best

Ronaldinho

Fat Ronaldo

[Noel Mc]

Fat Ronaldo

I would slightly dispute this one. His problems were more injury than anything. In saying that, part of the reason Messi/C Ronaldo are so good is they have avoided injury, and that's not all luck.

I maintain that without injuries, Ronaldo would/could have been the greatest ever.

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

My predictions for the Last 16 matches:-

DENMARK beats Wales (3-0)
ITALY beats Austria (2-0)
CZECHIA beats* Netherlands (2-2)
PORTUGAL beats* Belgium (2-2)
SPAIN beats Croatia (2-1)
FRANCE beats Switzerland (1-0)
GERMANY beats* England (1-1)
SWEDEN beats Ukraine (1-0)

*All tied results are the final scorelines of games that then go on the be settled in a penalty shootout.

[Gavin Chipper]

You posted that one minute ago. At that point even I knew that the best prediction for Denmark v Wales was 4-0.

[Marc Meakin]

You posted that one minute ago. At that point even I knew that the best prediction for Denmark v Wales was 4-0.

Was certainly the best prediction after 7pm

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

You posted that one minute ago. At that point even I knew that the best prediction for Denmark v Wales was 4-0.

I've had these predictions since just after the fixtures were arranged.
Only got to post them to facebook and c4c after the first result was in.
#laziness

And btw, the main thing I am predicting here is who goes through.
Scorelines are for fun... and can be results after 90 and/or 120 mins.

[Callum Todd]

Callum on good form in the last few posts IMO.

What is that down to though?

Well it sure as shit ain't effort so I guess I'm just naturally talented

Fat Ronaldo

I would slightly dispute this one. His problems were more injury than anything. In saying that, part of the reason Messi/C Ronaldo are so good is they have avoided injury, and that's not all luck.

I maintain that without injuries, Ronaldo would/could have been the greatest ever.

Yep.

The taking care of one's body/avoiding injuries (I don't think those two things are synonymous but they're heavily related) thing is a pretty big and I fear widely neglected part of the 'work ethic' thing discussed earlier in this thread. Ronaldo and Messi are great examples of it. I've heard it said that Wayne Rooney had the potential to rival Ronaldo/Messi but for his failure on this front.

Also on that topic, what (if anything) did y'all make of the whole 'moving the drinks bottles' thing at the Euros press conferences recently? As much as it wasa bit of a gimmicky PR thing I quite liked it, and thought UEFA's response to it was pathetic.

[Callum Todd]

I maintain that it should be not that hard not to let yourself down if you're a professional sports player playing the game you love.

Yeah probably not, but what if you don't love the game? Loads of people play football as kids. Some of them love it, some of them don't. Some of them have a natural talent for it, some of them don't. If you were to make a 2x2 matrix of that, what's to say there wouldn't be some people in the don't love it/naturally talented box? Even if you're not arsed about football, if you find you have prodigious talent for it it's worth pursuing as a lucrative career. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you love it. Hell, I love football but I'm shite at it. Instead my natural talent appears to have been allocated to Countdown, which I find mediocre at best.

[Noel Mc]

Also on that topic, what (if anything) did y'all make of the whole 'moving the drinks bottles' thing at the Euros press conferences recently? As much as it wasa bit of a gimmicky PR thing I quite liked it, and thought UEFA's response to it was pathetic.

My favourite was the player who, in his press conference, cracked open a bottle to drink it and told Coke to give him a call.

The cynic in me just thought it was hypocritical, given he recently had a campaign with KFC. In saying that, if it means someone (anyone) is healthier from it, then good stuff.

I lost about a stone and a half of weight almost exclusively by cutting out Coke.

[Callum Todd]

Yeah it's all a bit sketchy when you consider most of the high profile players have advertised or sponsored junk food/drink before, but hey it's a good message. I've always thought it's really irresponsible for companies like Coca Cola and especially energy drink brands like Red Bull and Monster to try and associate their toxic waste with enhanced fitness or sporting performance. There was a similar thing with UFC athletes and Monster Energy recently, although I think that was mostly motivated by a personal/contractual dispute with the Monster employee who deals with the UFC athletes. But yeah, if many people (and especially children) choose to heed Ronaldo's advice about drinking water instead of coca cola I'll forgive him the hypocrisy.

[Phil H]

I don't know if R9 quite had the discipline to reach Messi/CR7 levels of consistency, but I did love him more. He would certainly have a good case to be the best u-21 player of all time.

[Noel Mc]

Ronaldo and free-kicks. Someone needs to have a word with him. He used to be absolutely unreal at them. Like, best in the world levels. Now he's just dire.

[Marc Meakin]

Ronaldo and free-kicks. Someone needs to have a word with him. He used to be absolutely unreal at them. Like, best in the world levels. Now he's just dire.

Im not sure when he was unreal at free kicks but not for at least 5 years

[Phil H]

Im not sure when he was unreal at free kicks but not for at least 5 years

Scored that one v Spain in the 2018 World Cup

[Gavin Chipper]

I think he lacks discipline and work ethic.

[Callum Todd]

He seems to always go for the crazy technique thing now which just seems so low percentage. Bale does similar. Looks amazing when they go in and everyone remembers them but if you look at the stats they really don't convert that many. Messi is definitely ahead on this one. His free-kick technique is basically the standard method; he just does it remarkably well.

Basically Ronaldo could learn a thing or two from James Ward-Prowse these days.

[JackHurst]

Callum on good form in the last few posts IMO.

100% agree.

[Marc Meakin]

Well done Switzerland
France didnt deserve to win but Pogba didnt deserve to be on the losing side

[Noel Mc]

Best day of international football I've watched.

Tomorrow probably gonna be a bit duff in comparison.

[Mark James]

Well done Switzerland
France didnt deserve to win but Pogba didnt deserve to be on the losing side

He lost the ball for the equaliser.