Hate Speech

[Marc Meakin]

You may or may not be aware that Mattel are removing around 400 words from being used in Scrabble as these words promote hate speech
I have issues with this.
I dont know if words have been disallowed in Countdown as the words promote " hate speech" but i think that words in Scrabble as they are in countdown are not used in that way just as a means to score.
If Mattel had done this prely to make the game more user friendly to children or to make it broadcastable then why is CUNT not on the list.
This is causing all sorts of shit withn the scrabble community.
Thoughts?

[Gavin Chipper]

I knew it was being discussed at it came up on here before but I didn't know it was actually happening. I think it would be the wrong decision. But yeah, I'm surprised CUNT is staying if 400 words are going. I know that racial slurs would be higher up on the list to go than standard swears - even the "worst" one - but how many of them are there? 400 it seems.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Given what they're doing to Thomas the Tank Engine, I thought I couldn't hate Mattel any more...

A word is a word. They don't have control over CSW.

[Callum Todd]

I've just googled news for Scrabble, Mattel and Thomas the Tank Engine, and don't see anything. What's happening exactly?

[Marc Meakin]

I've just googled news for Scrabble, Mattel and Thomas the Tank Engine, and don't see anything. What's happening exactly?

If you gi onto WESPAs facrbook page its all there though i can link you Mattels statement
Below
https://corporate.mattel.com/news/matte ... dQFmbvESdE

[Marc Meakin]

Some words like POMMIE, PAPIST and JEW are really not that offensive without context.

When a slur word is declared in Countdown is it just edited out?
I havebt seen WANKER declared for several years now

[Gavin Chipper]

Some words like POMMIE, PAPIST and JEW are really not that offensive without context.

When a slur word is declared in Countdown is it just edited out?
I havebt seen WANKER declared for several years now

Susie got APESHIT the other day.

[Thomas Cappleman]

Some words like POMMIE, PAPIST and JEW are really not that offensive without context.

When a slur word is declared in Countdown is it just edited out?
I havebt seen WANKER declared for several years now

Yep, I've seen a slur word be refilmed with a different declaration of the same length.

[Phil H]

I've just googled news for Scrabble, Mattel and Thomas the Tank Engine, and don't see anything. What's happening exactly?

I'm guessing they've given it some kind of 'woke' makeover, given that Rhys seems to want to turn every conversation these days into that conversation.

[Rhys Benjamin]

I've just googled news for Scrabble, Mattel and Thomas the Tank Engine, and don't see anything. What's happening exactly?

It's been sped up, but look how they massacred my boy!

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

I'm guessing they've given it some kind of 'woke' makeover, given that Rhys seems to want to turn every conversation these days into that conversation.

Pointless dig at Rhys.
Stay classy Phil.

[Callum Todd]

Thanks Marc and Rhys for the links explaining. The Scrabble ting sounds newsworthy (at least by the very low standard that appears to be accepted by most news outlets) so surprised my google search didn't return anything. I have no idea what to make of the Thomas the Tank Engine thing. Seems like a normal kid's show trailer to me but that's hardly my area of expertise.

[Paul Anderson]

Yeah, there are no rude words, context is everything.
That said, I'd delete "woke" first

[Jon O'Neill]

I'd be interested to hear if there was anyone who thought this was a good idea. It does seem insane to me. And I am a woke snowflake bitch.

[Jon O'Neill]

I'd be interested to hear if there was anyone who thought this was a good idea. It does seem insane to me. And I am a woke snowflake bitch.

The Scrabble thing, I mean, although the Thomas the Tank Engine reboot looks shit as well.

[JackHurst]

Next thing you know they will be calling him "The Overweight Controller". This is Rhys's nightmare.

[Marc Meakin]

I'd be interested to hear if there was anyone who thought this was a good idea. It does seem insane to me. And I am a woke snowflake bitch.

As a member of the Scrabble community,i can say those that I know are very much against it.
There are a few woke people that are for it.
Ironically the biggest iasue with the top players is having to unlearn 400+ words rather than the near jerk reaction that has caused this.
I have heard no dissenting voices from the Pakistani, and African Scrabble community.
There is talk of a breakaway group that want to ditch the name and go it alone.
There is a precedent, in Thailand, Scrabble is known as Crossword Game

[Jon O'Neill]

There is a whole thread for this actually:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14163

Going to re-read now as Graeme defended the idea I think.

[Marc Meakin]

There is a whole thread for this actually:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14163

Going to re-read now as Graeme defended the idea I think.

Is this proof I have old timers disease.
I started that thread.
Altough as I remember it was just the North American Scrabble Players association that adopted it at that time.
Its more serious now that Mattel and Collins are changing its dictionary and WESPA is towing the line and the ABSP are likely to follow suit

[Jon O'Neill]

I think the best/only defence is put forward by Graeme:

I think the most compelling argument for removing the slurs is that games get streamed online and photos of boards get shared around and seen by people who aren't necessarily "in the community". We've all become accustomed to the idea that word game enthusiasts play words without any consideration for their meaning, but casual players outside this bubble, and the general public who only read about Scrabble when some incident or other puts it into the mainstream news, might not see it that way.

So if a board with the N-word on it were to get shared around, perhaps from a high-profile tournament game, don't you think the general public's reaction would be closer to "wtf, Scrabblers still use that word?" than "it's okay, words are played without any consideration for their meaning and there's nothing to see here"? It looks to me like they're weighing up on the one hand keeping the word in, running the very small risk that something like this will happen and seriously damage the global reputation of the game, and on the other hand taking the word out, avoiding that risk but taking on the very small risk that someone might get a slightly lower score in a game than would otherwise be the case. You can see why they'd prefer the latter to the former.

Maybe this is the reason. I just don't agree with it.

[Marc Meakin]

If Mattell had done it to make it more appealing to streaming and broadcasting and that this would mean sponsoring high profile tournaments with deceny prize money I would have undetstood but this form of censorship is rdiculous as it wont eradicate it from the game as if somebone played a slur word and i can score heavily off it then im going to let it stay on the board

[Gavin Chipper]

I'd be interested to hear if there was anyone who thought this was a good idea. It does seem insane to me. And I am a woke snowflake bitch.

I mean, you're really not. You're certainly nowhere near top tier. And I consider it cultural appropriation of you to try and speak on behalf of woke snowflake bitches.

There is a whole thread for this actually:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14163

We know because I'd already linked to it.

[L'oisleatch McGraw]

Next thing you know they will be calling him "The Overweight Controller". This is Rhys's nightmare.

Didn't they change that over 20 years ago to "Sir. Toppam Hat"?

[Rhys Benjamin]

Next thing you know they will be calling him "The Overweight Controller". This is Rhys's nightmare.

Didn't they change that over 20 years ago to "Sir. Toppam Hat"?

No, he's still the Fat Controller here in the UK. When the series was exported to the US Ringo Starr re-recorded all of his lines referring to The Fat Controller to "Sir Topham Hatt" (which was always his actual name) because, presumably, "fat" is more of an insult there than it is here. (Ringo Starr also re-recorded "trucks" to "cars" and other Britishnesses to Americanisms.)

But Callum, are you saying you never saw Thomas the Tank Engine as a kid?

[Fiona T]

As a member of the Scrabble community,i can say those that I know are very much against it.
There are a few woke people that are for it.

Your argument would be more convincing if you didn't dismiss those who support the idea as 'woke' - they disagree with the prevailing view so they must be snowflakes? Could they maybe have valid points to make? Have you asked them, or are they shouted down as soon as they try to make their case?

FWIW, I'm fairly indifferent. Words do cause offence, and given that scrabble has a defined list of words it just doesn't seem that much of a big deal to unlearn a few and make it more accessible. Countdowners do it all the time when the dictionary changes - mebbe we're just better

[Marc Meakin]

As a member of the Scrabble community,i can say those that I know are very much against it.
There are a few woke people that are for it.

Your argument would be more convincing if you didn't dismiss those who support the idea as 'woke' - they disagree with the prevailing view so they must be snowflakes? Could they maybe have valid points to make? Have you asked them, or are they shouted down as soon as they try to make their case?

FWIW, I'm fairly indifferent. Words do cause offence, and given that scrabble has a defined list of words it just doesn't seem that much of a big deal to unlearn a few and make it more accessible. Countdowners do it all the time when the dictionary changes - mebbe we're just better

Yes I have heard a lot of the people who want slur words removed and one without a trace of irony called " white old men" who dont want to contemolate change as racists.
Just because i refer to someone as woke does not mean i dismiss them out of hand.
I made the disrmtinction that its youngsters who are more willing to unlearn 400 + words because most people over 40 would find it extremely difficult.
I have been playing scrabble for nearly fifty years and it still rankles with me having to unlearn PH about 15 years ago on the basis that once a word is acceptible why should it suddenly not be so.

Btw i didnt realise that there are Countdown words removed from time to time

[Callum Todd]

I don't think it's clear that Marc was using the word "woke" as a pejorative. In my experience people tend to use that word as a self-identifier as often as it is used as a pejorative. I read Marc's comment as him referring to people he knows who describe themselves that way.

But Callum, are you saying you never saw Thomas the Tank Engine as a kid?

I saw it, sure. But I saw lots of kid's TV, I'm sure. If I ever had a particularly strong attachment to any of it though I've long outgrown it, and I don't expect it to stay as it always was forevermore; it's to be expected that these enduring franchises will modernise themselves over time. Unless there's something particularly egregious about it that I'm missing, other than 'it looks different to how it did 20 years ago'.

[Fiona T]

I don't think it's clear that Marc was using the word "woke" as a pejorative. In my experience people tend to use that word as a self-identifier as often as it is used as a pejorative. I read Marc's comment as him referring to people he knows who describe themselves that way.

Yep, fair enough - apologies Marc!

[Marc Meakin]

I don't think it's clear that Marc was using the word "woke" as a pejorative. In my experience people tend to use that word as a self-identifier as often as it is used as a pejorative. I read Marc's comment as him referring to people he knows who describe themselves that way.

Yep, fair enough - apologies Marc!

Apology accepted but not needed.
Not to labour the point that it goes to show if words can be used ambiguously, especially in print then just to call a word a slur word is ridiculous.
I mean the word RETARD when used ad a slur is insulting beyond the pale but if you are trying to retard to spread of a fire then its not.
Even downright slur word words sjojen to me by a friend is far more acceptible than a stranger calling me wrong or a racist as someone did on a scrabble forum recently

[Phil H]

If I ever had a particularly strong attachment to any of it though I've long outgrown it, and I don't expect it to stay as it always was forevermore; it's to be expected that these enduring franchises will modernise themselves over time. Unless there's something particularly egregious about it that I'm missing, other than 'it looks different to how it did 20 years ago'.

Exactly - I wonder if people raised on Awdry's originals were similarly appalled at the Ringo Starr series when it first appeared. But it seems I may have guessed wrongly about the reason for Rhys' objections, assuming he's not just talking about there being a female-looking engine among the lead characters.

[Marc Meakin]

Update.
Its happening, let the purge begin, WESPA had an EGM proposing that it divorces itself from Mattel and around 55% voted to stay although there were block votes from some associations including the ABSP plus around a third either abstained or wasted their vote.
I think its a publicity stunt by Mattel.
Who cares about a parlour game using words for points that may contain words used in hate speech.
I think Mattel are CUNTS, that word is allowed btw as are words with more than one meaning like COON.
I guess the argument i for acceptance is why get so upset over a parlour game