c4countdown

Robert Lozyniak wrote:If you're going to change something, make it the selections for the numbers game. Instead of instructing contestants not to use the 937.5 trick, change the "large" numbers so as to defeat it. Instead of 25, 50, 75, and 100, why not use 12, 30, 56, and 90? (Those aren't random; they are respectively 3x4, 5x6, 7x8, and 9x10.)

What's wrong with the 937.5 trick anyway, and why would they instruct contestants not to use it? I presume they don't currently. It's clearly too big a change anyway and would never happen. It would make the numbers "too hard".

Gavin Chipper wrote:

Robert Lozyniak wrote:If you're going to change something, make it the selections for the numbers game. Instead of instructing contestants not to use the 937.5 trick, change the "large" numbers so as to defeat it. Instead of 25, 50, 75, and 100, why not use 12, 30, 56, and 90? (Those aren't random; they are respectively 3x4, 5x6, 7x8, and 9x10.)

What's wrong with the 937.5 trick anyway, and why would they instruct contestants not to use it? I presume they don't currently. It's clearly too big a change anyway and would never happen. It would make the numbers "too hard".

Plus, if you change them to some other set of large numbers, there would just be some other equivalent trick anyway.

Countdown Team wrote:But, what's not being addressed here is the need for any of this, based on the frequency of this alleged gamesmanship.

It doesn't matter really how frequent it is though, the point is that it should never have been that way. There was never any good reason for allowing NWD declarations in letters rounds, it's just fortunate that it could be changed without affecting anybody adversely. The audience need not even notice (just as now there are contestant rules to which the audience are not privy), it's just something that contestants would need to be reminded of, and it wouldn't affect them one bit since everybody writes their words down anyway.

The "indicating which word you're going for" is a separate issue outside of this, and I haven't thought enough about it. Suffice to say, apterous deals with it beautifully; you can decide your declaration based on your opponent's, but don't know their word before you declare yours. Which IMO is the ideal; but in this case, achieving it in the studio gets a bit more fiddly.

Arriving late at the discussion, and there's a potential Thing That Might Look Bad hidden in the idea.

* Countdown Studio, November 2013. Contestant declares NUWORD. Susie regretfully explains that "although you do hear a lot about NUWORD these days, as you can see, it's not made it into ODO just yet so I'm afraid I can't accept it."

* Oxford, December 2013. "This NUWORD thing is bloody everywhere. I think we'd better include it in the ODO update we're doing this week, even though none of us actually know what it means and I suspect it's not even a word."

* The sofa, January 2014. "WHOA WHOA HANG ON A MINUTE! They've got that wrong, look, look, it's in ODO and they should have allowed it! I must tweet 7500 times about this error and jam the Countdown phoneline!"

Obviously there's nothing that can be done about it in game terms and the likelihood of it happening is pretty small, but it's enough of a possibility that Countdown Team ought to be prepared for it.

In general though: LIKE.

Nick Deller wrote:Arriving late at the discussion, and there's a potential Thing That Might Look Bad hidden in the idea.....

Very good point!

Graeme Cole wrote:

Matt Morrison wrote:I only checked quickly (and the seemingly weird URL structure doesn't help) but couldn't you just run the entire apterous dictionary (if provided) through a PHP headers check and catalogue the results?

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definitio ... d>?q=<word>
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definitio ... lo?q=hello = 200
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definitio ... p?q=madeup = 404

Do it in shifts mind.

Sadly it seems you only get headwords...
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definitio ... /cat?q=cat (200)
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definitio ... ats?q=cats (404)

Ok, sorted. So I emailed them and asked about the possibility of access to an API, being quite frank about the reasoning (didn't mention apterous) and even gave your cat/cats URL HTTP headers as an example.

Got a nice (though brief) response which just said I could apply for access to the API at http://api.oxforddictionaries.com/

In short this is awesome news. It looks to be a touch more complicated than that because it's in a closed beta at the moment, though commercial access is available too which is almost definitely likely to be a sound investment by apterous inc. (subject to price of course).

What is clear is that with this API there should be absolutely no reason for any crowd sourcing of manual apterous dictionary updating, now and forever. Game changing news in a way.

Do we think it's fair that the dictionary gets updated midway through a series?

I haven't made up my mind entirely on where I sit on the issue, but it's quite possible that a contestant has a word disallowed which becomes valid in a later episode of the series. I don't think that's a big deal in the context of the one episode, but if the lost points cost the contestant a spot in the finals or a better seeding, I'm not sure that's right.

Maybe the countdown team have already thought of this and will only update between series, or maybe it's too small a concern to be worth worrying about, but I thought I better put it out there.

Martin Bishop wrote:Do we think it's fair that the dictionary gets updated midway through a series?

I haven't made up my mind entirely on where I sit on the issue, but it's quite possible that a contestant has a word disallowed which becomes valid in a later episode of the series. I don't think that's a big deal in the context of the one episode, but if the lost points cost the contestant a spot in the finals or a better seeding, I'm not sure that's right.

Maybe the countdown team have already thought of this and will only update between series, or maybe it's too small a concern to be worth worrying about, but I thought I better put it out there.

Don't like the idea of only updating it between series. If a contestant has been told that ODO is the authoritative reference for Countdown, and on the show they offer a word they know was added recently because it was reported in the press, it'd be a bit unfair to disallow it just because it came in too recently. I think this is a more likely scenario than someone getting a word disallowed early in the series before another contestant later on gets the same word allowed.

Clive Brooker wrote:I can't think of any change in the history of the show which so radically changed the look and feel as much as this one will (changing to an online dictionary, that is). An uncharacteristically brave decision by Team Countdown. I suppose we'll have "Computer Corner" from now on, making an honest woman of Susie at last.

The Daily Mail's take on this story, featuring this quote too, so clearly there's a Daily Mail lurker somewhere on here...........: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

Judging by the comments underneath, it's almost Mail readers like to get righteously indignant about any kind of sensible modernisation/progression and are massively hung up on how things were back in Thatcher's day!! Surely not!

( )

Thanks for the link James, unfortunately I'll now have to disinfect my phone. We're authorative enough to be quoted, wow.
I've no problem with the dictionary evolving mid series.

Someone said to me that there was a Daily Mail journo going on the show soon. Must just go by a different name on here. If we see this bloke, we should prod him with him a long stick until he stops lurking.

Hi Graeme. I'm giving you the rest of the day to respond to my API revelations before I'm officially offended and to be found crying in the corner.

Matt Morrison wrote:Hi Graeme. I'm giving you the rest of the day to respond to my API revelations before I'm officially offended and to be found crying in the corner.

My response, though not articulated very well (or at all) on here, was "that is awesome news, as long as the terms aren't beyond the means of apterous inc".

In short, I think Charlie can give a more informative response to this revelation than I can.

A more immediate spanner in the works at the moment is that http://api.oxforddictionaries.com has now vanished and has been replaced with a logo for "Electric Hosting" with the message "This is the temporary home of your website or domain."

Graeme Cole wrote:A more immediate spanner in the works at the moment is that http://api.oxforddictionaries.com has now vanished and has been replaced with a logo for "Electric Hosting" with the message "This is the temporary home of your website or domain."

Oh, that's, that's wow. Good work ODO.

Graeme Cole wrote:

Matt Morrison wrote:Hi Graeme. I'm giving you the rest of the day to respond to my API revelations before I'm officially offended and to be found crying in the corner.

My response, though not articulated very well (or at all) on here, was "that is awesome news, as long as the terms aren't beyond the means of apterous inc".

In short, I think Charlie can give a more informative response to this revelation than I can.

A more immediate spanner in the works at the moment is that http://api.oxforddictionaries.com has now vanished and has been replaced with a logo for "Electric Hosting" with the message "This is the temporary home of your website or domain."

With the structure of their site as it is, I think it should be practical to put together an automated word collection program, even without the API. Using ODO is definitely going to make it far easier to have an accurate word list.

This forum's been quoted in the Mail article about it: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... aptop.html

Rhys Benjamin wrote:This forum's been quoted in the Mail article about it: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... aptop.html

We know.

Matt Morrison wrote:

Graeme Cole wrote:A more immediate spanner in the works at the moment is that http://api.oxforddictionaries.com has now vanished and has been replaced with a logo for "Electric Hosting" with the message "This is the temporary home of your website or domain."

Oh, that's, that's wow. Good work ODO.

Apparently it's now at http://developer.oxforddictionaries.com/

Graeme Cole wrote:

Matt Morrison wrote:

Graeme Cole wrote:A more immediate spanner in the works at the moment is that http://api.oxforddictionaries.com has now vanished and has been replaced with a logo for "Electric Hosting" with the message "This is the temporary home of your website or domain."

Oh, that's, that's wow. Good work ODO.

Apparently it's now at http://developer.oxforddictionaries.com/

Ah good spot. Being in closed beta there's nothing much more we can do for now, other than wait for it to open publicy, or if Charlie decides to investigate a commercial application (which he might have to do anyway long term I guess) then wait for his appraisal.

I feel a trend has been forming in the space of one year:

New CECIL, new score screens, new format, new clock, and now a completely new and different way of checking and finding words with a new laptop, with many new words added which may throw up some new rules. I like the idea of this new system with a little caution as I do like the traditional dictionary and old-fashioned feel of the show and I just hope Countdown doesn't become more and more electronised (if that's a word you can use). I wonder how Susie feels about this new change?

Hopefully we'll have a new studio for Series 70 too.

Ciaran Thompson wrote:I feel a trend has been forming in the space of one year:

New CECIL, new score screens, new format, new clock, and now a completely new and different way of checking and finding words with a new laptop, with many new words added which may throw up some new rules. I like the idea of this new system with a little caution as I do like the traditional dictionary and old-fashioned feel of the show and I just hope Countdown doesn't become more and more electronised (if that's a word you can use). I wonder how Susie feels about this new change?

Hopefully we'll have a new studio for Series 70 too.

Most of these changes have been out of necessity rather than as a result of someone in an office somewhere saying "we need to modernise Countdown". The move to MediaCity had to happen because Granada closed down. The new score screens and CECIL were required because the old ones weren't compatible with the new computers at MediaCity. The new format was introduced because Channel 4 wanted the part lengths changed (I think this turned out to be a good change anyway). The new clock was needed because the old one was wearing out and occasionally wouldn't start properly.

Although I'd stop short of describing the dictionary change as a "necessity" in the same way having a working clock and an operating studio is a "necessity", I still think it's a change for the better. The audience wouldn't be any more taken aback by a contestant getting 7 points for SELFIES or BITCOIN than if they got 7 points for TUGRIKS or SFUMATO, as they can currently.

What the audience would find surprising, though, is someone getting a new but very well known word like FRACKING disallowed. I think the modernisation is a means rather than an end.

Graeme Cole wrote:The new score screens and CECIL were required because the old ones weren't compatible with the new computers at MediaCity.

I think it's more that they weren't immediately compatible, and they didn't have enough time to sort them out. They probably could have gone back to the old screens after the first batch of CofC games (that was when they brought them in wasn't it?) but maybe they thought it would be weird to change and then change back. But on the other hand, they've now ended up with a look that no-one particularly wanted for perhaps the next 10 or 20 years and had to ditch the classic Cecil look just for a day's worth of recording.

I like the tiles. There is also the scoring system and some of the cleaning staff.

Matt Morrison wrote:I like the tiles. There is also the scoring system and some of the cleaning staff.

I'm not quite sure why this is so funny

Gavin Chipper wrote:

Graeme Cole wrote:The new score screens and CECIL were required because the old ones weren't compatible with the new computers at MediaCity.

I think it's more that they weren't immediately compatible, and they didn't have enough time to sort them out. They probably could have gone back to the old screens after the first batch of CofC games (that was when they brought them in wasn't it?) but maybe they thought it would be weird to change and then change back. But on the other hand, they've now ended up with a look that no-one particularly wanted for perhaps the next 10 or 20 years and had to ditch the classic Cecil look just for a day's worth of recording.

The impression I got when the new screens were introduced was that everyone went "They've got rid of the seven-segment displays! This is an outrage! The show will never be the same again!" for about two minutes before getting used to them. The new screens are more in keeping with the design of the studio - same colour scheme, same font. I can understand why they kept using them.

(Incidentally, they weren't introduced in the first batch of 30BC games, but in the first batch to be filmed in 2013. All the 30BC games before this one were done at Granada the previous November.)

Graeme Cole wrote:

Ciaran Thompson wrote:I feel a trend has been forming in the space of one year:

New CECIL, new score screens, new format, new clock, and now a completely new and different way of checking and finding words with a new laptop, with many new words added which may throw up some new rules. I like the idea of this new system with a little caution as I do like the traditional dictionary and old-fashioned feel of the show and I just hope Countdown doesn't become more and more electronised (if that's a word you can use). I wonder how Susie feels about this new change?

Hopefully we'll have a new studio for Series 70 too.

Most of these changes have been out of necessity rather than as a result of someone in an office somewhere saying "we need to modernise Countdown". The move to MediaCity had to happen because Granada closed down. The new score screens and CECIL were required because the old ones weren't compatible with the new computers at MediaCity. The new format was introduced because Channel 4 wanted the part lengths changed (I think this turned out to be a good change anyway). The new clock was needed because the old one was wearing out and occasionally wouldn't start properly.

Although I'd stop short of describing the dictionary change as a "necessity" in the same way having a working clock and an operating studio is a "necessity", I still think it's a change for the better.

Yes well I agree - most of these changes were indeed necessary. I think we all pretty much know that and the justifiable reasons behind the changes. I'm merely making an observation. I actually like all the changes (as seen in my previous posts), especially the new format, which as you say was a good change, and the new clock is virtually no different to the original, so its inconsequential. My point is that I just hope the five or so changes we've seen in less than one year (whether they are big, small, necessary or unnecessary) don't carry on and on and lead to the show becoming so different from how used to be. But as I say, I do credit Damian and co with this latest alteration for the simple reason that I think it will appeal more to the now generation (especially the younger generation), who are increasingly using electronic devices to read more than books.

How long before we hear Susie say "Seven is as good as it gets with these letters."?

David Williams wrote:How long before we hear Susie say "Seven is as good as it gets with these letters."?

Is that bad?

Mark Deeks wrote:

David Williams wrote:How long before we hear Susie say "Seven is as good as it gets with these letters."?

Is that bad?

It would suggest she's been replaced by a computer.

I bet she's said that loads of times, no?

David Williams wrote:How long before we hear Susie say "Seven is as good as it gets with these letters."?

I'm sure she's said that or something equivalent in the past, even if it was just to mean that they couldn't find anything longer.

Gavin Chipper wrote:

David Williams wrote:How long before we hear Susie say "Seven is as good as it gets with these letters."?

I'm sure she's said that or something equivalent in the past, even if it was just to mean that they couldn't find anything longer.

I think you know what I meant. And I'm pretty sure she's never said anything other than that they couldn't find anything longer. That's why it surprised me so much the first time Rachel said that one away was the best possible.

David Williams wrote:

Gavin Chipper wrote:

David Williams wrote:How long before we hear Susie say "Seven is as good as it gets with these letters."?

I'm sure she's said that or something equivalent in the past, even if it was just to mean that they couldn't find anything longer.

I think you know what I meant. And I'm pretty sure she's never said anything other than that they couldn't find anything longer. That's why it surprised me so much the first time Rachel said that one away was the best possible.

I know what you meant . And I'm pretty sure I've noticed her saying something along the lines of "Seven is the best" or "Seven is all there is" and that I've commented on it at the time (although not necessarily on the forum). But the point is we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that and her using a computer, although I imagine if it became "policy", it might happen a lot rather than just the odd occasion by accident.

Re the opening post - this idea has been delayed so will not roll-out until Series 71 at the earliest.
Thanks

OH WELL...!!!

I was bit confused at the moment about after Bradley Cates' last episode which mean it is end of series 69? currently on show is the new series cos i keep saying myself i will be on series 70 but i am not too sure if i am right or wrong? anyone happy to clarify me please?

The end of series 69 is just before Christmas in terms of broadcast terms. In terms of recording terms it was this week.

Series 70 doesn't start filming until the end of November, and won't be broadcast until January.

oh i get it now.

I hope they make sturdier pens that come with the goody bag. Mine's after breaking after only 4 months. Although in fairness, I was twiddling it between my fingers like Alan Cumming in Goldeneye and I dropped it a shit load of times.

I don't think this has come up (and I can't be bothered to check), but one problem with the change to the online dictionary is in checking older games. Obviously recaps are done there and then, but sometimes people might want to go back and check something. Will there be any sort of archive of previous online versions? I doubt it personally.

Also (this might have come up actually, but a quick skim didn't reveal it), presumably the words are allowed based on their entry in the ODO when the game is played? So this could have changed when we watch the programme and could make recaps (maxes/alternative words) inaccurate. Actually, it was addressed in a different way below:

Nick Deller wrote:Arriving late at the discussion, and there's a potential Thing That Might Look Bad hidden in the idea.

* Countdown Studio, November 2013. Contestant declares NUWORD. Susie regretfully explains that "although you do hear a lot about NUWORD these days, as you can see, it's not made it into ODO just yet so I'm afraid I can't accept it."

* Oxford, December 2013. "This NUWORD thing is bloody everywhere. I think we'd better include it in the ODO update we're doing this week, even though none of us actually know what it means and I suspect it's not even a word."

* The sofa, January 2014. "WHOA WHOA HANG ON A MINUTE! They've got that wrong, look, look, it's in ODO and they should have allowed it! I must tweet 7500 times about this error and jam the Countdown phoneline!"

Obviously there's nothing that can be done about it in game terms and the likelihood of it happening is pretty small, but it's enough of a possibility that Countdown Team ought to be prepared for it.

In general though: LIKE.

Just noticed on countdown wiki that John Inverdale will be first dictionary corner guest in new series 70.

6/1/2014-10/1/2014- John Inverdale
13/1/2014-17/1/2014- Helen Skelton
20/1/2014-24/1/2014- Matt Allwright
27/1/2014-31/1/2014- Nicki Chapman
3/2/2014-7/2/2014- Jon Culshaw

Sound good start with memorable guests to be appear but i have high hopes Jo Brand will be on dictionary corner in this series!

Ciaran McCarthy wrote:Just noticed on countdown wiki that John Inverdale will be first dictionary corner guest in new series 70.

6/1/2014-10/1/2014- John Inverdale
13/1/2014-17/1/2014- Helen Skelton
20/1/2014-24/1/2014- Matt Allwright
27/1/2014-31/1/2014- Nicki Chapman
3/2/2014-7/2/2014- Jon Culshaw

Sound good start with memorable guests to be appear but i have high hopes Jo Brand will be on dictionary corner in this series!

The man is an utter bellface. That is all.

Ian Volante wrote:

Ciaran McCarthy wrote:Just noticed on countdown wiki that John Inverdale will be first dictionary corner guest in new series 70.

6/1/2014-10/1/2014- John Inverdale
13/1/2014-17/1/2014- Helen Skelton
20/1/2014-24/1/2014- Matt Allwright
27/1/2014-31/1/2014- Nicki Chapman
3/2/2014-7/2/2014- Jon Culshaw

Sound good start with memorable guests to be appear but i have high hopes Jo Brand will be on dictionary corner in this series!

The man is an utter bellface. That is all.

Which one do you mean? i honestly cant stand Jon Culshaw but he is not sitting on brown chair forever!

Ciaran McCarthy wrote:

Ian Volante wrote:

Ciaran McCarthy wrote:Just noticed on countdown wiki that John Inverdale will be first dictionary corner guest in new series 70.

6/1/2014-10/1/2014- John Inverdale
13/1/2014-17/1/2014- Helen Skelton
20/1/2014-24/1/2014- Matt Allwright
27/1/2014-31/1/2014- Nicki Chapman
3/2/2014-7/2/2014- Jon Culshaw

Sound good start with memorable guests to be appear but i have high hopes Jo Brand will be on dictionary corner in this series!

The man is an utter bellface. That is all.

Which one do you mean? i honestly cant stand Jon Culshaw but he is not sitting on brown chair forever!

The one you mentioned - Inverdale. Smug, arrogant, self-serving, schmoozing prick. Limited knowledge hidden behind tedious humour, palliness and platitudes. Probably a hero to Richard Bacon.

To be fair, he was never going to be, you know, a looker. He was never going to be somebody like a Mark Foster, he was never going to be 5ft 11, he was never going to be somebody with long legs, so he had to compensate for that.

Good call.

Mark Deeks wrote:To be fair, he was never going to be, you know, a looker. He was never going to be somebody like a Mark Foster, he was never going to be 5ft 11, he was never going to be somebody with long legs, so he had to compensate for that.

I think Series 71 is filming now; have the changes originally proposed in this thread been made for the new series? Or have they been delayed further.

Callum Todd wrote:I think Series 71 is filming now; have the changes originally proposed in this thread been made for the new series? Or have they been delayed further.

Having been to today's recording for series 71, I can confirm the computer is now being used, so it looks like the changes have taken place. However, don't always expect the computer to come up with the max. I got at least one valid word which was longer than the best DC word, so the days of DC beaters are not numbered yet.

Anthony Endsor wrote:

Callum Todd wrote:I think Series 71 is filming now; have the changes originally proposed in this thread been made for the new series? Or have they been delayed further.

Having been to today's recording for series 71, I can confirm the computer is now being used, so it looks like the changes have taken place. However, don't always expect the computer to come up with the max. I got at least one valid word which was longer than the best DC word, so the days of DC beaters are not numbered yet.

And I can double confirm this tomorrow, when I'm there.

So do you know the rules?

Thanks for the info Anthony. I don't think the computer was ever going to be used to find words, just as an alternate way of checking them. Does this mean that the ODO lexicon is being used now?

Callum Todd wrote:Thanks for the info Anthony. I don't think the computer was ever going to be used to find words, just as an alternate way of checking them. Does this mean that the ODO lexicon is being used now?

I can confirm that it defo is in use for Series 71.

*flips table* So many words removed recently will be valid again then, if Charlie decides to make the switch to ODO as well.