Ask Graeme?

All discussion relevant to Countdown that is not too spoilerific. New members: come here first to introduce yourself. We don't bite, or at least rarely.
Post Reply
User avatar
Michael Wallace
Racoonteur
Posts: 5458
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:01 am
Location: London

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Michael Wallace »

Graeme Cole wrote:An answer to my earlier question
Only just seen this, thanks - pretty interesting. (I don't really have anything to add right now, but didn't want to seem like I'd just ignored it.)
Ned Pendleton
Newbie
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Ned Pendleton »

Bit of a narcissistic Ask Graeme post this, it came up when we were chatting after CoRea.

I'm aware I'm the third lowest total scoring octochamp ever, I was wondering if I have any other rather negative accolades.

For starters, in my first game I had my first two words disallowed (caribous and goldies, caribous was particularly daft as I'd obviously seen 'caribou' and my opponent declared 6 first!), has anyone won eight after having their first two words disallowed? I had 'goatiest' disallowed later in that game as well, anyone else had three disallowed words in their first game of an octorun?

I lost the next round as well and went 19-0 down, remember thinking 'well that's it, I've totally screwed it up, gonna lose', has anyone come back from such a large deficit in their first game to win eight?

I also went comfortably behind in several of my other games - 21 points behind in my 3rd, 2 points behind in 4th, 14 points behind in my 6th (against Dan McColm - probably wouldn't be coming back from that one now), 7 points behind in my 7th and 7 points behind in my 8th! One way to look at that would be that I was a total of seventy points behind during the eight games, can any other octochamp beat that? Or has any octochamp been behind in six out of their eight? Ironically (sort of), the one game I did lose against Andy McGurn I was never behind at any stage, until the tie-break conundrum after an 89-89 draw.

I've got another question, which has probably already been asked - has an anagram of COUNTDOWN ever come up in a letters selection (I know they've used it twice in conundrums) and did the contestants spot it?
User avatar
Adam Gillard
Kiloposter
Posts: 1761
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:42 pm
Location: About 45 minutes south-east of Thibodaux, Louisiana

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Adam Gillard »

Ned Pendleton wrote:I've got another question, which has probably already been asked - has an anagram of COUNTDOWN ever come up in a letters selection (I know they've used it twice in conundrums) and did the contestants spot it?
Nope, but almost happened once (currently listed on the 'Did you know...' section of the wiki).
Mike Brown: "Round 12: T N R S A E I G U

C1: SIGNATURE (18) ["9; not written down"]
C2: SEATING (7)
Score: 108–16 (max 113)

Another niner for Adam and yet another century. Well done, that man."
User avatar
Graeme Cole
Series 65 Champion
Posts: 2025
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Graeme Cole »

Ned Pendleton wrote:Bit of a narcissistic Ask Graeme post this, it came up when we were chatting after CoRea.

I'm aware I'm the third lowest total scoring octochamp ever, I was wondering if I have any other rather negative accolades.

For starters, in my first game I had my first two words disallowed (caribous and goldies, caribous was particularly daft as I'd obviously seen 'caribou' and my opponent declared 6 first!), has anyone won eight after having their first two words disallowed? I had 'goatiest' disallowed later in that game as well, anyone else had three disallowed words in their first game of an octorun?
Eight octochamps had their first word disallowed (nine if you count Andy Platt, but the database only counts games up to 2013-03-01). They were Sanjay Mazumder, Stuart Solomons, Richard Pay, Stewart Holden, Mark Tournoff, Paul Howe, Ned Pendleton and Tom Barnes. You're the only octochamp to have their first two words disallowed.
Ned Pendleton wrote:I lost the next round as well and went 19-0 down, remember thinking 'well that's it, I've totally screwed it up, gonna lose', has anyone come back from such a large deficit in their first game to win eight?
The largest deficit overcome by someone in their first game who went on to become an octochamp was by Steven Moir against Rita Willmott. After round 7 he was 27 points behind, but he ended up winning by a single point.

Your 19-0 was the second largest.
Ned Pendleton wrote:I also went comfortably behind in several of my other games - 21 points behind in my 3rd, 2 points behind in 4th, 14 points behind in my 6th (against Dan McColm - probably wouldn't be coming back from that one now), 7 points behind in my 7th and 7 points behind in my 8th! One way to look at that would be that I was a total of seventy points behind during the eight games, can any other octochamp beat that? Or has any octochamp been behind in six out of their eight? Ironically (sort of), the one game I did lose against Andy McGurn I was never behind at any stage, until the tie-break conundrum after an 89-89 draw.
If for all octochamps you sum their highest deficits for all of their heat games (if a player was never behind in a game, it's 0), the player with the highest is Richard Pay, with a highest deficit sum of 74. This included his seventh game which he won after being 40 points behind. This remains the largest ever overturned margin in a single game.

Your octorun deficit sum of 70 is the second highest.

Eleven octochamps were never behind in any game in their heats: Dag Griffiths, David Ballheimer, Chris Wills, Julian Fell, John Brackstone, Richard Heald, Conor Travers, Kirk Bevins, Innis Carson, Adam Gillard and Edward McCullagh.
User avatar
Graeme Cole
Series 65 Champion
Posts: 2025
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Graeme Cole »

Ned Pendleton wrote:Or has any octochamp been behind in six out of their eight?
Nope, you're unique with that. :-)
Ned Pendleton
Newbie
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Ned Pendleton »

Graeme Cole wrote:
Ned Pendleton wrote:Or has any octochamp been behind in six out of their eight?
Nope, you're unique with that. :-)
What's the second most games an octochamp's been behind in?

Great stuff Graeme!
User avatar
Graeme Cole
Series 65 Champion
Posts: 2025
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Graeme Cole »

Ned Pendleton wrote:
Graeme Cole wrote:
Ned Pendleton wrote:Or has any octochamp been behind in six out of their eight?
Nope, you're unique with that. :-)
What's the second most games an octochamp's been behind in?

Great stuff Graeme!
11 octochamps fell behind in five of their eight games, most recently Liam Shaw and Rose Boyle.
Josh Hurst
Enthusiast
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:59 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Josh Hurst »

Hi,

I know it's only very early days for the new format, but do you have any idea about the average available max compared to the average available max in the old format? I imagine the new format has a slightly higher mean and a smaller standard deviation than the old format.

Cheers
Dave Preece
Devotee
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Dave Preece »

This has been covered elsewhere; I'll have a look mate!
User avatar
Thomas Carey
Kiloposter
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:17 pm
Location: North-West of Bradford
Contact:

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Thomas Carey »

Josh Hurst wrote:Hi,

I know it's only very early days for the new format, but do you have any idea about the average available max compared to the average available max in the old format? I imagine the new format has a slightly higher mean and a smaller standard deviation than the old format.

Cheers
Using apterous figures, I've worked out that the new format is worth exactly 2.2389769436420136454774211027368 more points per game, which is 17.911815549136109163819368821894 points per octorun. :D

Actually it might be slightly more, since apterites like to go for those 4 large or 6 small picks pretty often.
cheers maus
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13215
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Josh Hurst wrote:Hi,

I know it's only very early days for the new format, but do you have any idea about the average available max compared to the average available max in the old format? I imagine the new format has a slightly higher mean and a smaller standard deviation than the old format.

Cheers
We can work it out from:
Graeme Cole wrote:
Adam Gillard wrote:Graeme, what is the average maximum available for a letters round and for a numbers round? Just wondering how much difference on average the proposed format change will make (I'm guessing about 2-3 points).
Average maximum points available is 7.7783 for letters, 9.8723 for numbers. However, some of the maxes for earlier games might be wrong as they use the ODE2r rather than the COD. If we just look at 15 rounders, the average maximum in a letters round is 7.9277. If we look only at 15 rounders since the start of 2011 (the introduction of the ODE3) it's 7.8368.
I don't know which average we should look at, but if we go for ODE3, then under the old system it would be 11*7.8368 + 3*9.8723 +10 = 125.8217. For the new system, it's 10*7.8368 + 4*9.8723 +10 = 127.8572. I realise that that's hopelessly too many significant figures, but there it is. I guessed somewhere that the new system would be worth between 2 and 3 points a game but it seems to be almost exactly 2 looking at this. (Thomas Carey said that based on Apterous figures it's 2.2389769436420136454774211027368 per game). The difference is just the difference between one letters game and one numbers game of course, so you don't need the rest of the calculations for that. And with all the average figures that Graeme's given, it's about 2.

Edit - Ooh, beaten by Thomas.
Dave Preece
Devotee
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Dave Preece »

Average and round it at 2.125 then?

Equates to exactly 17 per octorun!
Josh Hurst
Enthusiast
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:59 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Josh Hurst »

Cheers chaps.
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13215
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Of course, the difference in maxes and the difference in what people get aren't necessarily the same.
Dave Preece
Devotee
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Dave Preece »

A top player ges around 90%, so a top octochamp, would be 90% of the 17 points better off, more acurately!

>15
Dave Preece
Devotee
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Dave Preece »

Graeme.

How many different conundrum words have there been; furthermore, how many conundrum-able words exist?
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13215
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Gavin Chipper »

How many numbers maxes have all the octochamps/xicounts had?
User avatar
Andy Platt
Kiloposter
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Andy Platt »

(Spoilers if you haven't been watching the last week or two, hopefully everybody is up to date!)




I was looking back over the old Octochamp stats from all previous series just now and seeing where I and The Typhoon fit in to the grand scheme of things.
One I just worked out and is interesting, is that me and Giles had the exact same "9 statistics", which i will make look pretty here:

AP: AGONISTIC / MUSHAIRAS / QUEENIEST / GRAPEVINE / CRENULATE / ARRESTING / ISOBUTANE / SUSTAINED / Total: 6 out of 8
GH: INFLATERS / DOMINATES / KILOTONNE / PORTIERES / UNTHREADS / EMBARGOED / ADAPTIONS / NURSEMAID / Total: 6 out of 8


WD to Giles for 3rd place on the all time max list (edited, I counted 94 maxes first time):
1. Edward McCullagh, 95
2. Julian Fell, 94
3. Giles Hutchings, 93
4 Jack Hurst, 91
5=. Craig Beevers, 89
5=. Jonathan Rawlinson, 89
7. Andy Platt, 88
8. Stewart Holden, 86
9. Kirk Bevins, 85
10. Chris Davies, 84
Last edited by Andy Platt on Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Giles
Series 68 Champion
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:11 pm
Location: Farnham, Surrey

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Giles »

Andy Platt wrote:and seeing where I and The Typhoon fit in to the grand scheme of things
*where The Typhoon and me (pretty sure it's accusative not nominative)

I'm curious about a few things. First of all, I calculated my maxes after recording and I'm pretty sure I got 93, so can someone/Andy recheck that please? Oh yeah and I chickened ASSENTED in one round, and if Rachel had put the M the right way round, I'm pretty sure I would have seen the nine.

Also, I had 1L many times in my run and 2 of them were impossible to reach exactly. How rare is that?

Further, I got the same number of conundrums right as Jack (Hurst) and the same number of nines. Was my score larger than his just because of more favourable letters (and of course the format change)?
User avatar
Andy Platt
Kiloposter
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Andy Platt »

Giles wrote:
Andy Platt wrote:and seeing where I and The Typhoon fit in to the grand scheme of things
*where The Typhoon and me (pretty sure it's accusative not nominative)
Subject surely as we are doing the fitting in? Please don't try to correct someone with a degree in languages 8-)
Giles wrote:I calculated my maxes after recording and I'm pretty sure I got 93, so can someone/Andy recheck that please?
In the words of Rachel Riley, I'll have to have another look. This you're blatantly correct about! Edit: you were right, I think it was R15 of G8 that I missed
Last edited by Andy Platt on Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jack Worsley
Series 66 Champion
Posts: 979
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:32 pm
Location: Blackpool

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Jack Worsley »

Graeme, could you please post a table off all old 15 octochamps' estimated totals in the new 15 using the following formula:
(average points scored per numbers round - average points scored per letters round) x 8, + original total, then rounded to the nearest whole number?

How much the new format changes someone's projected score depends on how good they are at letters and numbers. I'm interested to see how many people would have a lower projected score in the new format (I think there will be a few but mostly at the lower end of the octochamp totals). Could you also include a column which compares each octochamp's position in the table to the old 15? For example, if the sixth highest scoring octochamp in the old 15 has the fourth highest projected new 15 total, there could be a column which reads "+2" or something like that. Cheers
User avatar
Brian Moore
Devotee
Posts: 582
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:11 pm
Location: Exeter

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Brian Moore »

Andy Platt wrote:
Giles wrote:
Andy Platt wrote:and seeing where I and The Typhoon fit in to the grand scheme of things
*where The Typhoon and me (pretty sure it's accusative not nominative)
Subject surely as we are doing the fitting in? Please don't try to correct someone with a degree in languages 8-)
Andy Platt wrote:One I just worked out and is interesting, is that me and Giles had the exact same "9 statistics", which i will make look pretty here
Am I allowed to point out that you're the subject in that sentence too? Sorry, I've only got a degree or two in music.
User avatar
Andy Platt
Kiloposter
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Andy Platt »

Brian Moore wrote:
Andy Platt wrote:One I just worked out and is interesting, is that me and Giles had the exact same "9 statistics", which i will make look pretty here
Am I allowed to point out that you're the subject in that sentence too? Sorry, I've only got a degree or two in music.
Haha shit. I got owned :mrgreen:
Anyway, back on topic..
Jack Worsley
Series 66 Champion
Posts: 979
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:32 pm
Location: Blackpool

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Jack Worsley »

Andy, if you'd played all of your games in the old 15, your projected total would be 892, so you'd actually be slightly better off, which surprised me. If they'd all been in the new 15, it would have been 886.
User avatar
Andy Platt
Kiloposter
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Andy Platt »

Jack Worsley wrote:Andy, if you'd played all of your games in the old 15, your projected total would be 892, so you'd actually be slightly better off, which surprised me. If they'd all been in the new 15, it would have been 886.
Lol, interesting as I prefer numbers, but seen as though I found letters rounds easier in the studio than at home and of course numbers harder than at home then this isn't a massive surprise. I guess I had some pretty fiendish 1L and 2L, as well as Sam going 3L... Carl, Bob and myself going 4L... Alex and Josh taking one 6S round each (although they turned out easy actually). I guess I'm trying to say that I don't think my run was really the best archetypal example for format comparison.

One thing I've been looking at as well is conundrum difficulties, as a couple of people have mentioned that I got a few toughies, particularly when compared to Giles's (hopefully I don't sound like I'm complaining about it though - even if Giles solved 0/8 he'd still have managed #1 seed, so it objectively makes shit all difference to the seedings). One interesting thing was that SANITIZED, Giles's 2nd conundrum, isn't listed as a conundrum on apterous (although clearly the conundrum list hasn't been updated to include SANITIZED since it's anagrammatical cousin SATINIZED was removed. Ticket time?)

Here are mine and Giles's conundrums by apterous difficulty rating if anyone wanted to compare:
AP: 7 1 9 6 10 5 3 7
GH: 3 X 2 4 3 6 1 6



Graeme, is there any way that you can link together the conundrum difficulty ratings from the apterous website and those from contestant's runs?
Might be pretty interesting. But not so interesting that I or anyone else would do it manually, of course :P Also not totally objective as conundrums can be made easier or harder by their scrambles so we couldn't provide a rock solid piece of information about which contestant had the easiest and hardest conundrums.
User avatar
Innis Carson
Devotee
Posts: 898
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:24 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Innis Carson »

Giles wrote:Further, I got the same number of conundrums right as Jack (Hurst) and the same number of nines. Was my score larger than his just because of more favourable letters (and of course the format change)?
Jack 'only' got 6 conundrums actually, whereas you got 7. This plus the format change is more than enough to account for the difference.
Giles
Series 68 Champion
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:11 pm
Location: Farnham, Surrey

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Giles »

Innis Carson wrote:
Giles wrote:Further, I got the same number of conundrums right as Jack (Hurst) and the same number of nines. Was my score larger than his just because of more favourable letters (and of course the format change)?
Jack 'only' got 6 conundrums actually, whereas you got 7. This plus the format change is more than enough to account for the difference.
How come http://www.apterous.org/cdb/octochamps.php says 7 cons solved for Jack? Surely that's wrong then?
User avatar
Innis Carson
Devotee
Posts: 898
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:24 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Innis Carson »

Yes it is wrong, look at games 2 and 8 of Jack's octorun. His 'nines' entry is wrong too (should be 6 of 7) - I'm guessing these stats were input manually and subject to human error.
User avatar
Adam Gillard
Kiloposter
Posts: 1761
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:42 pm
Location: About 45 minutes south-east of Thibodaux, Louisiana

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Adam Gillard »

Andy Platt wrote:One thing I've been looking at as well is conundrum difficulties [...] SANITIZED, Giles's 2nd conundrum, isn't listed as a conundrum on apterous
I kept getting conundrums that were brand new for ODE3 (FLUSHABLE, JOBSEEKER, FANCYWORK, maybe some others). I presume that was the case throughout Series 64, or at least the early part of it, and may be applicable further back for other dictionary migrations.
Mike Brown: "Round 12: T N R S A E I G U

C1: SIGNATURE (18) ["9; not written down"]
C2: SEATING (7)
Score: 108–16 (max 113)

Another niner for Adam and yet another century. Well done, that man."
User avatar
Johnny Canuck
Kiloposter
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:44 pm
Location: Montréal 😃, Québec 😕, Canada 😃

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Johnny Canuck »

Apologies if I'm asking too many questions, and sincere thanks for answering my earlier ones, but...

What is the most frequent max score for a 15-round game, and would it be possible to make a graph featuring number of games vs. max score?
I'm not dead yet. In a rut right now because of stress from work. I'll be back later in S89. I also plan to bring back the Mastergram - if I can find a way to run a timer or clock through pure MediaWiki without having to upload to Vimeo every time.
User avatar
Graeme Cole
Series 65 Champion
Posts: 2025
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Graeme Cole »

Dave Preece wrote:Graeme.

How many different conundrum words have there been; furthermore, how many conundrum-able words exist?
There have been 3,555 unique solutions in 6,192 conundrum rounds for which we know the answer.

Not sure how many conundrummable words exist. A conundrummable word is any nine-letter word without any valid anagrams and which isn't a regular plural. Additionally, it seems they don't use third person singular verbs (e.g. SPECTATES) either. That said, nine-letter words with only one anagram can be used, if the anagram is used as the scramble (e.g. POLYTHENE -> TELEPHONY).

I believe the apterous conundrum list is about 10,000 conundrums, and that guess is probably going to be about right. The apterous conundrum list doesn't have words which have valid anagrams though.
User avatar
Graeme Cole
Series 65 Champion
Posts: 2025
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Graeme Cole »

Jack Worsley wrote:Graeme, could you please post a table off all old 15 octochamps' estimated totals in the new 15 using the following formula:
(average points scored per numbers round - average points scored per letters round) x 8, + original total, then rounded to the nearest whole number?

How much the new format changes someone's projected score depends on how good they are at letters and numbers. I'm interested to see how many people would have a lower projected score in the new format (I think there will be a few but mostly at the lower end of the octochamp totals). Could you also include a column which compares each octochamp's position in the table to the old 15? For example, if the sixth highest scoring octochamp in the old 15 has the fourth highest projected new 15 total, there could be a column which reads "+2" or something like that. Cheers
I make it this:

Code: Select all

                                         OLD      NEW              RANK
                                       TOTAL    TOTAL      +/-      +/-
       1. Jack Hurst                     946      963      +17       +0
       2. Andrew Hulme                   930      943      +13       +0
       3. Kirk Bevins                    925      940      +15       +0
       4. Julian Fell                    924      930       +6       +0
       5. Craig Beevers                  907      928      +21       +0
       6. Adam Gillard                   903      921      +18       +0
       7. Eoin Monaghan                  898      919      +21       +0
       7. Edward McCullagh               896      919      +23       +1
       9. Conor Travers                  890      905      +15       +1
      10. Chris Davies                   892      900       +8       -1
      11. David O'Donnell                880      899      +19       +0
      12. Chris Wills                    875      893      +18       +0
      13. Chris Cummins                  858      884      +26       +2
      14. Stewart Holden                 870      874       +4       -1
      15. Jon Corby                      856      873      +17       +1
      16. Innis Carson                   861      871      +10       -2
      17. Tom Hargreaves                 850      868      +18       +0
      18. Jonathan Rawlinson             850      867      +17       -1
      19. Steven Briers                  843      866      +23       +2
      20. Paul Gallen                    846      863      +17       +0
      21. Matthew Shore                  850      855       +5       -4
      22. Mark Deeks                     824      850      +26       +5
      22. Jack Welsby                    831      850      +19       +3
      24. Marcus Hares                   834      849      +15       +0
      24. James Hurrell                  838      849      +11       -1
      26. Jack Worsley                   818      848      +30       +6
      27. Daniel Pati                    840      843       +3       -5
      28. Richard Brittain               820      840      +20       +2
      29. Grace Page                     829      838       +9       -3
      30. Paul Howe                      815      837      +22       +5
      31. Scott Gillies                  810      835      +25       +8
      32. John Brackstone                822      833      +11       -4
      32. Graeme Cole                    813      833      +20       +4
      34. Charlie Reams                  820      831      +11       -4
      34. Tom Barnes                     822      831       +9       -6
      34. Jon O'Neill                    804      831      +27       +9
      37. George Greenhough              817      827      +10       -3
      38. Mark Tournoff                  809      825      +16       +2
      39. Lee Hartley                    811      824      +13       -2
      40. Stuart Earl                    807      823      +16       +2
      41. Martin Bishop                  809      822      +13       -1
      42. Oliver Garner                  802      820      +18       +2
      43. Junaid Mubeen                  790      817      +27       +7
      44. Ryan Taylor                    792      816      +24       +5
      45. Jeffrey Hansford               818      813       -5      -13
      46. John Hunt                      788      811      +23       +5
      47. John Mayhew                    811      810       -1      -10
      48. Richard Heald                  795      808      +13       -1
      49. Peter Lee                      801      805       +4       -4
      49. Stuart Solomons                796      805       +9       -3
      51. Paul James                     794      799       +5       -3
      52. Cate Henderson                 782      798      +16       +1
      53. Tom Rowell                     774      796      +22       +5
      54. John Davies                    766      794      +28      +10
      55. Keith Maynard                  785      793       +8       -3
      56. Jimmy Gough                    782      791       +9       -3
      57. Rupert Stokoe                  776      788      +12       +0
      57. Aaron Webber                   773      788      +15       +2
      59. David Barnard                  771      787      +16       +2
      60. Jim Bentley                    756      783      +27      +10
      60. Mike Pullin                    756      783      +27      +10
      60. Kevin Thurlow                  769      783      +14       +2
      63. Wendy Roe                      781      782       +1       -8
      64. Tim Reypert                    773      778       +5       -5
      65. Neil Zussman                   768      776       +8       -2
      65. Shane Roberts                  766      776      +10       -1
      67. Steven Moir                    763      775      +12       +0
      68. Danny Hamilton                 761      773      +12       +0
      69. John Gray                      757      772      +15       +0
      70. Michael Macdonald-Cooper       780      771       -9      -14
      71. Sweyn Kirkness                 765      770       +5       -5
      72. Kai Laddiman                   756      765       +9       -2
      73. Paul Keane                     744      762      +18       +5
      73. Michael Bowden                 739      762      +23       +8
      75. David Edwards                  737      760      +23       +8
      75. Gary Male                      750      760      +10       -2
      77. Stu Horsey                     732      759      +27       +9
      77. Nik Von Uexkull                749      759      +10       -3
      79. Richard Pay                    732      758      +26       +7
      80. Martin Gardner                 746      757      +11       -5
      81. Brian Selway                   746      756      +10       -6
      81. James Roberts                  736      756      +20       +4
      83. Nick Wainwright                726      754      +28       +5
      84. Heather Styles                 737      753      +16       -1
      85. Jonathan Coles                 746      752       +6      -10
      86. Jean Webby                     738      751      +13       -4
      86. Ross Allatt                    741      751      +10       -6
      88. Julia Wilkinson                744      737       -7      -10
      89. David Von Geyer                724      734      +10       +0
      90. Amey Deshpande                 718      729      +11       +0
      91. James Doohan                   702      728      +26       +7
      92. Liam Shaw                      708      723      +15       +1
      93. Tony Warren                    712      721       +9       -1
      93. Jayne Wisniewski               705      721      +16       +3
      93. Brenda Jolley                  718      721       +3       -3
      96. Carl Williams                  708      720      +12       -3
      97. Rose Boyle                     701      717      +16       +3
      98. David Thirlwall                704      714      +10       -1
      99. Andy McGurn                    702      712      +10       -1
     100. Judith Young                   707      709       +2       -5
     101. Dave Taylor                    691      707      +16       +1
     102. Chris Marshall                 682      704      +22       +3
     103. Tia Corkish                    697      702       +5       -2
     104. Suzi Purcell                   686      695       +9       -1
     105. Jeffrey Burgin                 685      691       +6       -1
     106. Steve Wood                     675      688      +13       +0
     107. Ned Pendleton                  664      684      +20       +1
     108. Joe Zubaidi                    665      672       +7       -1
     109. Chris McHenry                  643      654      +11       +0
     110. Danny Pledger                  635      650      +15       +0
The "average points scored per letters round" and "average points scored per numbers round" refer to the average points scored in the appropriate type of round by that player in their heat games only. This average only counts points that were actually scored in the game, not raw scores, so if a player got an eight-letter word but was beaten by their opponent's nine, their score for that round still counts as zero.
User avatar
Graeme Cole
Series 65 Champion
Posts: 2025
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Graeme Cole »

Gavin Chipper wrote:How many numbers maxes have all the octochamps/xicounts had?
15 round octochamps (counting heats only):

Code: Select all

                               NUMBERS MAXES
     1. Jack Worsley                      23
     1. Jack Hurst                        23
     3. Edward McCullagh                  22
     3. Chris Cummins                     22
     5. Jim Bentley                       21
     5. Steven Briers                     21
     5. Mark Deeks                        21
     5. Eoin Monaghan                     21
     5. Jon O'Neill                       21
    10. John Davies                       20
    10. Graeme Cole                       20
    10. Paul Howe                         20
    10. Adam Gillard                      20
    10. Chris Wills                       20
    10. Craig Beevers                     20
    10. Kirk Bevins                       20
    10. Andrew Hulme                      20
    10. Nick Wainwright                   20
    10. Stu Horsey                        20
    10. Junaid Mubeen                     20
    21. Conor Travers                     19
    21. Paul Gallen                       19
    21. David Barnard                     19
    21. Ryan Taylor                       19
    21. Scott Gillies                     19
    21. Richard Brittain                  19
    21. David O'Donnell                   19
    21. Jack Welsby                       19
    21. John Hunt                         19
    21. Julian Fell                       19
    31. Richard Pay                       18
    31. John Brackstone                   18
    31. Martin Bishop                     18
    31. Jimmy Gough                       18
    31. Tom Rowell                        18
    31. Marcus Hares                      18
    37. Charlie Reams                     17
    37. James Hurrell                     17
    37. Cate Henderson                    17
    37. James Doohan                      17
    37. Mike Pullin                       17
    37. Michael Bowden                    17
    37. Oliver Garner                     17
    37. Jon Corby                         17
    37. James Roberts                     17
    37. Jonathan Rawlinson                17
    47. Grace Page                        16
    47. Gary Male                         16
    47. Andy McGurn                       16
    47. Keith Maynard                     16
    47. Rose Boyle                        16
    47. Martin Gardner                    16
    47. David Edwards                     16
    47. Jayne Wisniewski                  16
    47. Innis Carson                      16
    47. Kevin Thurlow                     16
    47. Dave Taylor                       16
    47. Rupert Stokoe                     16
    59. Tom Hargreaves                    15
    59. Steven Moir                       15
    59. Carl Williams                     15
    59. Daniel Pati                       15
    59. John Mayhew                       15
    59. Amey Deshpande                    15
    59. Chris Marshall                    15
    59. George Greenhough                 15
    59. Aaron Webber                      15
    59. Stuart Solomons                   15
    59. Mark Tournoff                     15
    59. Richard Heald                     15
    59. Liam Shaw                         15
    59. Tom Barnes                        15
    59. Stuart Earl                       15
    74. Lee Hartley                       14
    74. Jeffrey Burgin                    14
    74. John Gray                         14
    74. Shane Roberts                     14
    74. Heather Styles                    14
    74. Paul Keane                        14
    74. Chris Davies                      14
    74. Stewart Holden                    14
    82. Sweyn Kirkness                    13
    82. David Von Geyer                   13
    82. Tony Warren                       13
    82. Jonathan Coles                    13
    82. Paul James                        13
    82. Nik Von Uexkull                   13
    82. Joe Zubaidi                       13
    82. Neil Zussman                      13
    82. Ross Allatt                       13
    82. Jean Webby                        13
    92. Ned Pendleton                     12
    92. Danny Pledger                     12
    92. David Thirlwall                   12
    92. Matthew Shore                     12
    92. Danny Hamilton                    12
    92. Kai Laddiman                      12
    92. Peter Lee                         12
    92. Jeffrey Hansford                  12
    92. Tim Reypert                       12
   101. Tia Corkish                       11
   101. Wendy Roe                         11
   101. Chris McHenry                     11
   104. Brenda Jolley                     10
   104. Suzi Purcell                      10
   104. Steve Wood                        10
   104. Julia Wilkinson                   10
   108. Brian Selway                       9
   109. Michael Macdonald-Cooper           8
   109. Judith Young                       8
15-round series champions (counting heats, quarter-final, semi-final and final):

Code: Select all

                               NUMBERS MAXES
     1. Jack Hurst                        32
     2. Edward McCullagh                  30
     2. Chris Cummins                     30
     4. Jack Worsley                      29
     4. Chris Wills                       29
     6. Junaid Mubeen                     28
     6. Craig Beevers                     28
     8. Kirk Bevins                       27
     8. Graeme Cole                       27
    10. Julian Fell                       25
    10. Nick Wainwright                   25
    10. John Davies                       25
    10. Oliver Garner                     25
    14. Richard Brittain                  24
    15. David O'Donnell                   23
    15. Conor Travers                     23
    17. Chris Davies                      22
    18. Mark Tournoff                     21
    19. Paul James                        20
    19. Stewart Holden                    20
    21. John Mayhew                       19
A numbers max is where a player got the most points available.
Guy Barry
Acolyte
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:12 am

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Guy Barry »

Graeme Cole wrote:A conundrummable word is any nine-letter word without any valid anagrams and which isn't a regular plural.
As a matter of interest, do you know why the restriction on plurals is there?
Jack Worsley
Series 66 Champion
Posts: 979
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:32 pm
Location: Blackpool

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Jack Worsley »

Thanks, Graeme!
User avatar
Andy Platt
Kiloposter
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Andy Platt »

Guy Barry wrote:
Graeme Cole wrote:A conundrummable word is any nine-letter word without any valid anagrams and which isn't a regular plural.
As a matter of interest, do you know why the restriction on plurals is there?
This is a good question, wonder if Mr Countdown Team can shed some light on it?

It actually wasn't always the case either, as some early series used plurals as their conundrums.
Dave Preece
Devotee
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Dave Preece »

Thanks Graeme!
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13215
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Graeme Cole wrote:
Gavin Chipper wrote:How many numbers maxes have all the octochamps/xicounts had?
15 round octochamps (counting heats only):

Code: Select all

                               NUMBERS MAXES
     1. Jack Worsley                      23
     1. Jack Hurst                        23
     3. Edward McCullagh                  22
     3. Chris Cummins                     22
     5. Jim Bentley                       21
     5. Steven Briers                     21
     5. Mark Deeks                        21
     5. Eoin Monaghan                     21
     5. Jon O'Neill                       21
    10. John Davies                       20
    10. Graeme Cole                       20
    10. Paul Howe                         20
    10. Adam Gillard                      20
    10. Chris Wills                       20
    10. Craig Beevers                     20
    10. Kirk Bevins                       20
    10. Andrew Hulme                      20
    10. Nick Wainwright                   20
    10. Stu Horsey                        20
    10. Junaid Mubeen                     20
    21. Conor Travers                     19
    21. Paul Gallen                       19
    21. David Barnard                     19
    21. Ryan Taylor                       19
    21. Scott Gillies                     19
    21. Richard Brittain                  19
    21. David O'Donnell                   19
    21. Jack Welsby                       19
    21. John Hunt                         19
    21. Julian Fell                       19
    31. Richard Pay                       18
    31. John Brackstone                   18
    31. Martin Bishop                     18
    31. Jimmy Gough                       18
    31. Tom Rowell                        18
    31. Marcus Hares                      18
    37. Charlie Reams                     17
    37. James Hurrell                     17
    37. Cate Henderson                    17
    37. James Doohan                      17
    37. Mike Pullin                       17
    37. Michael Bowden                    17
    37. Oliver Garner                     17
    37. Jon Corby                         17
    37. James Roberts                     17
    37. Jonathan Rawlinson                17
    47. Grace Page                        16
    47. Gary Male                         16
    47. Andy McGurn                       16
    47. Keith Maynard                     16
    47. Rose Boyle                        16
    47. Martin Gardner                    16
    47. David Edwards                     16
    47. Jayne Wisniewski                  16
    47. Innis Carson                      16
    47. Kevin Thurlow                     16
    47. Dave Taylor                       16
    47. Rupert Stokoe                     16
    59. Tom Hargreaves                    15
    59. Steven Moir                       15
    59. Carl Williams                     15
    59. Daniel Pati                       15
    59. John Mayhew                       15
    59. Amey Deshpande                    15
    59. Chris Marshall                    15
    59. George Greenhough                 15
    59. Aaron Webber                      15
    59. Stuart Solomons                   15
    59. Mark Tournoff                     15
    59. Richard Heald                     15
    59. Liam Shaw                         15
    59. Tom Barnes                        15
    59. Stuart Earl                       15
    74. Lee Hartley                       14
    74. Jeffrey Burgin                    14
    74. John Gray                         14
    74. Shane Roberts                     14
    74. Heather Styles                    14
    74. Paul Keane                        14
    74. Chris Davies                      14
    74. Stewart Holden                    14
    82. Sweyn Kirkness                    13
    82. David Von Geyer                   13
    82. Tony Warren                       13
    82. Jonathan Coles                    13
    82. Paul James                        13
    82. Nik Von Uexkull                   13
    82. Joe Zubaidi                       13
    82. Neil Zussman                      13
    82. Ross Allatt                       13
    82. Jean Webby                        13
    92. Ned Pendleton                     12
    92. Danny Pledger                     12
    92. David Thirlwall                   12
    92. Matthew Shore                     12
    92. Danny Hamilton                    12
    92. Kai Laddiman                      12
    92. Peter Lee                         12
    92. Jeffrey Hansford                  12
    92. Tim Reypert                       12
   101. Tia Corkish                       11
   101. Wendy Roe                         11
   101. Chris McHenry                     11
   104. Brenda Jolley                     10
   104. Suzi Purcell                      10
   104. Steve Wood                        10
   104. Julia Wilkinson                   10
   108. Brian Selway                       9
   109. Michael Macdonald-Cooper           8
   109. Judith Young                       8
15-round series champions (counting heats, quarter-final, semi-final and final):

Code: Select all

                               NUMBERS MAXES
     1. Jack Hurst                        32
     2. Edward McCullagh                  30
     2. Chris Cummins                     30
     4. Jack Worsley                      29
     4. Chris Wills                       29
     6. Junaid Mubeen                     28
     6. Craig Beevers                     28
     8. Kirk Bevins                       27
     8. Graeme Cole                       27
    10. Julian Fell                       25
    10. Nick Wainwright                   25
    10. John Davies                       25
    10. Oliver Garner                     25
    14. Richard Brittain                  24
    15. David O'Donnell                   23
    15. Conor Travers                     23
    17. Chris Davies                      22
    18. Mark Tournoff                     21
    19. Paul James                        20
    19. Stewart Holden                    20
    21. John Mayhew                       19
A numbers max is where a player got the most points available.
Thanks for doing that. Is the data available for 9 rounders?
User avatar
Andy Platt
Kiloposter
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Andy Platt »

How come mine and Giles stats aren't loading yet in those tables, does the whole series have to be completed first?

For the record, mine was 21/28 (translated equivalent out of 24 = 18) and Giles's was 26/32 (translated equivalent out of 24 = 19.5), and that's if we include the two rounds whereby Giles was 2 away but 1 away was possible. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone's been doing, right?
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13215
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Andy Platt wrote:How come mine and Giles stats aren't loading yet in those tables, does the whole series have to be completed first?

For the record, mine was 21/28 (translated equivalent out of 24 = 18) and Giles's was 26/32 (translated equivalent out of 24 = 19.5), and that's if we include the two rounds whereby Giles was 2 away but 1 away was possible. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone's been doing, right?
Yeah, I think it's a database thing unfortunately. 2 away when 1 away is possible isn't a true max, but we have to go with what the database can provide.
User avatar
Graeme Cole
Series 65 Champion
Posts: 2025
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Graeme Cole »

Gavin Chipper wrote:Thanks for doing that. Is the data available for 9 rounders?
It is, mostly. Gaps in the data for early series make it a bit fiddly though, as do octoruns of more than eight games due to draws, so I've ordered it by percentage. The "numbers rounds" column is the number of numbers rounds the contestant played that the database knows the max for. Clive Freedman is excluded entirely because his whole octorun is missing.

9-round octochamps, counting preliminaries only:

Code: Select all

                                NUMBERS   NUMBERS
                                  MAXES    ROUNDS        %
      1.  Richard Campbell           15        16    93.75
      2.  Don Reid                   14        16    87.50
      3.  Sharon Bridge              12        14    85.71
      4.  Melvin Hetherington        13        16    81.25
      4.  Suzanne Miles              13        16    81.25
      6.  Graham Nash                12        16    75.00
      6.  James Martin               12        16    75.00
      7.  Tim Morrissey              13        18    72.22
      8.  Stephen Deakin             10        14    71.43
      9.  Allan Saldanha             11        16    68.75
      9.  Anthony Jenkin             11        16    68.75
      9.  David Acton                11        16    68.75
      9.  David Williams             11        16    68.75
      9.  Dick Green                 11        16    68.75
      9.  Gareth Williams            11        16    68.75
      9.  Kevin McMahon              11        16    68.75
      9.  Lucy Roberts               11        16    68.75
      9.  Margaret Foster            11        16    68.75
      9.  Scott Mearns               11        16    68.75
      9.  Simon Cooper               11        16    68.75
      9.  Terry Knowles              11        16    68.75
     21.  Mark Nyman                 10        15    66.67
     22.  Chris Waddington           10        16    62.50
     22.  Derek Coombs               10        16    62.50
     22.  Harvey Freeman             10        16    62.50
     22.  John Hadfield              10        16    62.50
     22.  Norman Christian           10        16    62.50
     27.  Bhavin Manek                9        16    56.25
     27.  David Ballheimer            9        16    56.25
     27.  Kate Ogilvie                9        16    56.25
     27.  Lawrence Pearse             9        16    56.25
     27.  Maria Boyes                 9        16    56.25
     27.  Nic Brown                   9        16    56.25
     27.  Ray McPhie                  9        16    56.25
     27.  Sanjay Mazumder             9        16    56.25
     27.  Satbir Gupta                9        16    56.25
     27.  William Bradford            9        16    56.25
     37.  Lew Schwarz                11        20    55.00
     38.  Dag Griffiths               8        16    50.00
     38.  James Sinclair              8        16    50.00
     38.  Lindsay Denyer              7        14    50.00
     38.  Michael Calder              8        16    50.00
     38.  Natascha Kearsey            8        16    50.00
     38.  Peter Hutchings             8        16    50.00
     38.  Richard Evans               8        16    50.00
     38.  Steve Williams              8        16    50.00
     46.  Jon Marsh                   8        18    44.44
     46.  Jonathan Anstey             8        18    44.44
     48.  John Wallace                7        16    43.75
     48.  Phil Jordan                 7        16    43.75
     48.  Terence O'Farrell           7        16    43.75
     51.  Darryl Francis              6        16    37.50
     52.  Glynn Leaney                5        16    31.25
     53.  David Trace                 4        16    25.00
9-round series champions who were also octochamps, counting preliminaries and series finals stages:

Code: Select all

                                NUMBERS   NUMBERS
                                  MAXES    ROUNDS        %
     1.   Don Reid                   20        24    83.33 
     2.   David Acton                18        24    75.00 
     3.   Chris Waddington           17        24    70.83 
     3.   Graham Nash                17        24    70.83 
     5.   Harvey Freeman             15        22    68.18 
     6.   Dick Green                 16        24    66.67 
     6.   Scott Mearns               16        24    66.67 
     8.   Gareth Williams            15        24    62.50 
     8.   Nic Brown                  15        24    62.50 
    10.   Lawrence Pearse            14        24    58.33 
    10.   Ray McPhie                 14        24    58.33 
    12.   Kate Ogilvie               12        24    50.00 
    12.   Michael Calder             12        24    50.00 
    14.   Darryl Francis              9        24    37.50 
    15.   David Trace                 8        24    33.33
User avatar
Graeme Cole
Series 65 Champion
Posts: 2025
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Graeme Cole »

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Andy Platt wrote:How come mine and Giles stats aren't loading yet in those tables, does the whole series have to be completed first?

For the record, mine was 21/28 (translated equivalent out of 24 = 18) and Giles's was 26/32 (translated equivalent out of 24 = 19.5), and that's if we include the two rounds whereby Giles was 2 away but 1 away was possible. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone's been doing, right?
Yeah, I think it's a database thing unfortunately. 2 away when 1 away is possible isn't a true max, but we have to go with what the database can provide.
Yes, the database is just a MySQL thing on my desktop computer, it doesn't get updated automatically. Updating it with new games is a pain in the backside, with more manual intervention needed than you might think. "This John Gardner chap, is he the same John Gardner who was on in 1987? Yes? Don't give him a new player ID then." When I initially extracted all the games from that XML dump of the wiki last year, it distinguished players with the same name by looking at the links to the contestants on the series page and examining the URL they pointed to. For example, the Chris Davies on this page and the Chris Davies on this page have links that point to two different URLs, so they're two different people. On the other hand, the Edward McCullagh on this page and the Ed McCullagh on this page are links that point to the same page, so they're the same person even though the names are different. For a more extreme example, the Saladin Khoshnaw on this page and the Karl Kurdistan on this page are actually the same person, and the database knows this.

Even this isn't foolproof, though. The database persists in its belief that Dinos Sfyris and Konstadinos Sfyris are two different people, presumably because some links somewhere on the wiki aren't set up as I expected.

All of this means I don't update it frequently. Currently the database doesn't have any games in it after 1st March 2013, the end of the 30th birthday championship.

Maybe one day there could be some system whereby the recap writer asks "is this a new person or someone who's played before" for each contestant, and it can update the database automatically. Currently, the real Countdown database does have a link on the recap writer which allows the recapper to add the game to the database, but it only stores summary-level information rather than round-level information.
User avatar
Clive Brooker
Devotee
Posts: 505
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:37 pm
Location: San Toy

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Clive Brooker »

Graeme Cole wrote:Yes, the database is just a MySQL thing on my desktop computer, it doesn't get updated automatically. Currently the database doesn't have any games in it after 1st March 2013, the end of the 30th birthday championship.
Do you have your own extraction method, or do you still welcome my input? If you want to extend the database now to the end of the 15 round mk1 era, that might be good.

As I implied a few weeks ago, I also have the crossword tools difficulty rating for each numbers game. From the same source I could also produce the most smallest number of numbers required to solve each game (someone asked a question about this) and perhaps a few other things. These create scope for pulling out a few more "interesting" analyses, and you're welcome to have them if you want.
User avatar
Charlie Reams
Site Admin
Posts: 9494
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:33 pm
Location: Cambridge
Contact:

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Charlie Reams »

No match for much of Graeme's analysis, but I finally got around to adding the new format to CDB's "best/worst available octoruns" page, with an interesting outcome!
User avatar
Graeme Cole
Series 65 Champion
Posts: 2025
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Graeme Cole »

Clive Brooker wrote:
Graeme Cole wrote:Yes, the database is just a MySQL thing on my desktop computer, it doesn't get updated automatically. Currently the database doesn't have any games in it after 1st March 2013, the end of the 30th birthday championship.
Do you have your own extraction method, or do you still welcome my input? If you want to extend the database now to the end of the 15 round mk1 era, that might be good.

As I implied a few weeks ago, I also have the crossword tools difficulty rating for each numbers game. From the same source I could also produce the most smallest number of numbers required to solve each game (someone asked a question about this) and perhaps a few other things. These create scope for pulling out a few more "interesting" analyses, and you're welcome to have them if you want.
I made my own extraction method for the XML file, but the way the game information is laid out is completely different in XML compared to the HTML file that's served up when you visit the wiki.

A game in the XML file is expressed in wikitext, which you can see if you try to edit the page. It looks like this:

Code: Select all

==Rounds==
{{Rounds-start|Jack Hurst|Conor Travers}}
{{R-letters  |1 |CGNEAIHPT|CHEATING |CHEATING |NIGHTCAP, PATCHING, PEACHING, TEACHING*|  8|8  |  8}}
{{R-letters  |2 |LMGOEISRU|MOUSIER  |MISRULE  |GLORIES*, LOURIES*, LOUSIER, LURGIES*, MORGUES, REGULOS*| 15|15 | 15}}
{{R-letters  |3 |YTPOIANLS|SOAPILY  |PONYTAILS|                    | 15|33 | 33}}
{{R-letters  |4 |DRSEIATEN|RESINATED|DETAINERS|DENTARIES*          | 33|51 | 51}}
{{R-numbers  |5 | 50|75|100|25|9|9| 483
|484|sol1=9 × 50 + 25 + 9
|484|sol2=9 × 50 + 25 + 9
|rr=483|solrr=(100 × 9 + 75 − 9) ÷ (50 ÷ 25)
|40|58|61}}
{{R-TTT         |ICECLASH|These large cups have a religious connection.|CHALICES}}
{{R-letters  |6 |LMZIEONAR|NORMALIZE|NORMALIZE|                    | 58|76 | 79}}
{{R-letters  |7 |GTSIEOFAI|FIESTA   |AGEIST   |EGOIST, FOGIES, SOFTIE*, STOGIE*| 64|82 | 85}}
{{R-letters  |8 |LHREOICTD|CHORTLED |CHLORITE |CHLORIDE*, CLOTHIER*, ELDRITCH*| 72|90 | 93}}
{{R-letters  |9 |VNWEAECSD|VENDACES |VENDACES |                    | 80|98 |101}}
{{R-numbers  |10| 50|8|6|7|7|10| 616
|616|sol1=(7 × 10 + 7) × 8
|616|sol2=(50 + 6) × (7 ÷ 7 + 10)
|90|108|111}}
{{R-TTT         |HITSACES|Tell Charlie off about his neckwear, perhaps?|CHASTISE}}
{{R-letters  |11|BKMSIUIEO|IMBUES   |IMBUES   |BIKIES*, BIOMES*, KOMBIS*, SMOKIE*| 96|114|117}}
{{R-letters  |12|RGDUAOXUA|GUARD    |AGORA    |AUGUR*, GOURA*, GOURD*|101|119|122}}
{{R-letters  |13|BDSMEAEOP|SOAPED   |POMADES  |                    |101|126|129}}
{{R-numbers  |14| 100|10|6|8|7|10| 945
|945|sol1=(100 − 6) × 10 + 8 + 7 − 10
|945|sol2=(100 − 6) × 10 + 8 + 7 − 10
|111|136|139}}
{{R-conundrum|15|HEVALIANT|c2time=0.75|c2sol=LEVIATHAN|111|146|149}}
{{Rounds-end}}
Whereas what you get if you just fetch the wiki page is HTML, and the above information is presented as an HTML table, which requires a totally different parser.

The data you sent me for series 67 and the championship saved me a lot of work, thanks for that. The only fiddly stuff left was sorting out which players were new players and which were existing players.
User avatar
Andy Platt
Kiloposter
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Andy Platt »

Charlie Reams wrote:No match for much of Graeme's analysis, but I finally got around to adding the new format to CDB's "best/worst available octoruns" page, with an interesting outcome!
FIX!
Dave Preece
Devotee
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Dave Preece »

Charlie Reams wrote:No match for much of Graeme's analysis, but I finally got around to adding the new format to CDB's "best/worst available octoruns" page, with an interesting outcome!
Can you please add the missing Edward McCullagh o the octochamps page?
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13215
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Charlie Reams wrote:No match for much of Graeme's analysis, but I finally got around to adding the new format to CDB's "best/worst available octoruns" page, with an interesting outcome!
I think the most interesting thing about that is that it would appear that Helen Grayson had literally the worst run of rounds ever in the 9-round era - quite interesting considering I think she had the best max rate of anyone in her heat run. She still managed to be number one seed by outscoring octochamp Darryl Francis with just seven games herself.
User avatar
James Robinson
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 10573
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: Mirfield, West Yorkshire

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by James Robinson »

Dave Preece wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote:No match for much of Graeme's analysis, but I finally got around to adding the new format to CDB's "best/worst available octoruns" page, with an interesting outcome!
Can you please add the missing Edward McCullagh to the octochamps page?
I think if you look that EVERY octochamp from Series 64 onwards is missing :!: :!: :shock: :shock: :o :o
Jack Worsley
Series 66 Champion
Posts: 979
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:32 pm
Location: Blackpool

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Jack Worsley »

Has anyone ever won a 15-rounder without maxing a single round? Also, what's the lowest combined number of maxes by the contestants in a 15-rounder?

I've noticed that Giles completed his octochamp run without having a word disallowed! Has anyone else done this in the 15-round era?
James Roper
Rookie
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:46 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by James Roper »

Jack Worsley wrote:Has anyone ever won a 15-rounder without maxing a single round? Also, what's the lowest combined number of maxes by the contestants in a 15-rounder?

I've noticed that Giles completed his octochamp run without having a word disallowed! Has anyone else done this in the 15-round era?
Unless you count the HEDARIM incident, Kirk never had any letters round declaration disallowed in his prelims.
User avatar
Innis Carson
Devotee
Posts: 898
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:24 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Innis Carson »

Julian Fell never had a word disallowed all the way up until his CoC quarter-final, where it would cost him dearly.
James Roper
Rookie
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:46 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by James Roper »

With Eileen going strong, unless it's been asked before: who have been the oldest and youngest ever octochamps?
User avatar
James Robinson
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 10573
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: Mirfield, West Yorkshire

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by James Robinson »

James Roper wrote:With Eileen going strong, unless it's been asked before: who have been the oldest and youngest ever octochamps?
Youngest is Allan Saldanha, not even in double figures when he was an octo all those years ago.

Oldest, not sure, but probably someone like George Greenhough or Grace Page in Series 48 must be serious contenders.
Gavin Chipper
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 13215
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Gavin Chipper »

James Robinson wrote:
James Roper wrote:With Eileen going strong, unless it's been asked before: who have been the oldest and youngest ever octochamps?
Youngest is Allan Saldanha, not even in double figures when he was an octo all those years ago.
This came up recently. Urban myth. He was 10.
User avatar
Innis Carson
Devotee
Posts: 898
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:24 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Innis Carson »

CDB says that John Hunt was 69, so he must be a likely candidate for oldest.
Oliver Garner
Series 62 Champion
Posts: 775
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:13 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Oliver Garner »

Which octochamp had the toughest 8 opponents, in terms of combined maxes scored /120 ?
Neil Collins
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:34 pm

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Neil Collins »

More of a trivia question than a stats question...

What is it that makes me unique amongst all Countdown contestants?
Peter Mabey
Kiloposter
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:15 pm
Location: Harlow

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by Peter Mabey »

We know that (notwithstanding Nick's remarks) several games are recorded in a day.

Eileen didn't seem to be her usual self yesterday - would that have been at the end of a long day for her?
Is there any evidence on how other multiple winners have fared at the end of a whole day recording?
User avatar
James Robinson
Post-apocalypse
Posts: 10573
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: Mirfield, West Yorkshire

Re: Ask Graeme?

Post by James Robinson »

Peter Mabey wrote:We know that (notwithstanding Nick's remarks) several games are recorded in a day.

Eileen didn't seem to be her usual self yesterday - would that have been at the end of a long day for her?
Is there any evidence on how other multiple winners have fared at the end of a whole day recording?
Well no, because the end of the day was Wednesday's show, so it was only the 2nd game of the day was yesterday's show, and she seemed pretty competent on Thursday's show, but maybe it's just all those shows that have started to take their toll............ :roll:
Post Reply