Asperger Syndrome

[David O'Donnell]

He has already confessed so I am not sure why this would concern you. Also, although he would stand trial in the US it has been suggested that any sentence would be carried out in the UK.

He hasn't confessed to what they want him to confess to. He still says he was just looking for aliens.

Yeah, fair enough. I belatedly see your point (I is fick innit).

[Gavin Chipper]

Speaking of Asperger's - I find it strange that this seems to have become the "main" reason for it not being a good idea to extradite Gary McKinnon (computer hacker guy). I suppose they saw it as something worth trying but much of the press seem to have swallowed it. Of all the reasons not to extradite him, this surely does not rank near the top.

It was part of the general angle that McKinnon is a "vulnerable" person, who might be unable to get a fair trial if, for example, US interrogators strongarmed him into a confession. That's not so unreasonable, in my view.

I can see it being given as one of many reasons, but I think it's been overblown somewhat.

[Nick Boldock]

Speaking of Asperger's - I find it strange that this seems to have become the "main" reason for it not being a good idea to extradite Gary McKinnon (computer hacker guy). I suppose they saw it as something worth trying but much of the press seem to have swallowed it. Of all the reasons not to extradite him, this surely does not rank near the top.

It was part of the general angle that McKinnon is a "vulnerable" person, who might be unable to get a fair trial if, for example, US interrogators strongarmed him into a confession. That's not so unreasonable, in my view.

I can see it being given as one of many reasons, but I think it's been overblown somewhat.

He has a form of mental illness. What's overblown about the fact we're happy to extradite a mentally ill man to a country which has recently been proven to practice torture? Hm?

Incidentally, I find all this "people with Aspergers are all so nice" to be very, very patronising indeed.

[Gavin Chipper]

I can see it being given as one of many reasons, but I think it's been overblown somewhat.

He has a form of mental illness. What's overblown about the fact we're happy to extradite a mentally ill man to a country which has recently been proven to practice torture? Hm?

Incidentally, I find all this "people with Aspergers are all so nice" to be very, very patronising indeed.

If we're talking about torture, I don't see why it makes any difference who you extradite, Asperger's or not. Also, by calling it a mental illness, I think it makes it sound worse than it is. From what I gather, he has it fairly mildly anyway - he's just not that great at social interactions.

I don't think he should be extradited - I just don't cite Asperger's as a reason for this.

[Nick Boldock]

I can see it being given as one of many reasons, but I think it's been overblown somewhat.

He has a form of mental illness. What's overblown about the fact we're happy to extradite a mentally ill man to a country which has recently been proven to practice torture? Hm?

Incidentally, I find all this "people with Aspergers are all so nice" to be very, very patronising indeed.

If we're talking about torture, I don't see why it makes any difference who you extradite, Asperger's or not. Also, by calling it a mental illness, I think it makes it sound worse than it is. From what I gather, he has it fairly mildly anyway - he's just not that great at social interactions.

I don't think he should be extradited - I just don't cite Asperger's as a reason for this.

I'm not calling it a mental illness. It IS a mental illness. This doesn't have to come with added stigma - I don't think having a mental illness is necessarily any big deal. But I do think it suggests a moral obligation to not hand such people over to the US government, for starters.

Not least when said person has basically done sod all in the grand scheme of things.

[Gavin Chipper]

I'm not calling it a mental illness. It IS a mental illness. This doesn't have to come with added stigma - I don't think having a mental illness is necessarily any big deal. But I do think it suggests a moral obligation to not hand such people over to the US government, for starters.

Not least when said person has basically done sod all in the grand scheme of things.

Well it only IS a mental illness because someone has chosen to define it so. Some people just see Asperger's as part of their make-up and not as an illness at all - one could argue it's like defining homosexuality as a mental illness!

But you say a mental illness is not necessarily a big deal, but then still think it should exempt anyone from extradition to the USA. That's a massive get-out just for having Asperger's if you ask me. (As I've said I don't think he should be extradited but I would think the same even if he hadn't been diagnosed.)

[Derek Hazell]

There is a new film out about an Asperger's savant who is obsessed with raccoons. It is called Adam.

[Michael Wallace]

There is a new film out about an Asperger's savant who is obsessed with raccoons. It is called Adam.

I presumed this was some sort of joke, but google suggests otherwise. Awesome.

[Derek Hazell]

There is a programme which may be of interest on Saturday on More4. Called Autism: the Musical, it is a 2-hour HBO film which is apparently subtle and emotional and not at all tacky.

[Martin Smith]

subtle and emotional

Would autistics appreciate it though?

[Derek Hazell]

Would autistics appreciate it though?

Probably, because it empathises with the loneliness and separateness felt by all its contributors.

[Sue Sanders]

Would autistics appreciate it though?

Probably, because it empathises with the loneliness and separateness felt by all its contributors.

Bundle of laughs then?

[Gavin Chipper]

Since there was a brief discussion of Gary McKinnon here previously, I'll put my post here.

As you probably know, Gary McKinnon's extradition to America has been halted, which I think is a good thing. But I don't like the reasons for it. It seems to have largely been about the fact that he was a suicide risk and that he has Asperger's, implying that someone else who did exactly the same thing could still be extradited. And I think that that is wrong.

He's a British man who committed whatever crimes he committed in the UK. He never set foot in America. So clearly he could be subject to British laws. It would be completely illogical for him to face the American legal system. People have said that the victims are American and the the evidence is in America, but these are irrelevant considerations. Evidence can be communicated across to the UK easily enough, and you don't try someone in the country where the victims are from. You don't get to punish someone yourself just because you are the victim. You are subject to the laws of the country that you are in.

Also, what's so special about extradition when it comes to mental health issues? Someone facing prison here could also be a suicide risk. Would that be a reason for letting them off? And also why should some arbitrary jumped up politician even make this decision, rather than some sort of court with people trained in this area?

[Jon O'Neill]

I agree.

[David Williams]

I agree with you. Except that I think that if the perpetrator and the victim are in different places, it's very hard to accept that no crime has been committed where the victim is.

[David Barnard]

I doubt alot of people with aspergers would find this thread comfortable, as for me, I've opened up on apterous once vaguely but right now I'm keeping this close to my chest so to speak.

[Steve Balog]

Oh, hi thread. Here, have a gigantic not entirely appropriate given the most recent posts here wall of text.

From my perspective, at least, having AS means being "different" and not "disabled" like a lot of people think. I mean, you see me functioning on my own in the real world, right? I have a job (even though job hunting and especially interviewing are absolute hell for someone like myself in an economy like this, I mean, interviews are hard enough for most people. I have to rely on Rote learning for even basic facial cues, explicitly remind myself to look at people when I talk to them, and basically pre-memorise answers to common questions because no matter how many times I'm asked where I'll see myself in 5 years, I'll still find a way to screw it up), I've been in a relationship for over 5 years (yea learning the rules of intimate relationships was and pretty much still is frustratingly difficult) -- you look at me objectively and I'm not much different than most. The difference is that I have to learn to do things in an abnormal manner to "fit in" (and even then it doesn't quite work. But that's what the database of personal interactions I keep in my mind and draw from to respond to a new situation is for).

Another thing about AS are all the really minor quirks. People react to these in ways ranging from, literally, "I want to have sex with you like now" to "I'm going to fairly loudly accuse you of being a rapist in the middle of a crowded store because my son tried to start a conversation with you [I didn't respond and now NEVER will with children I don't know because of this incident]" and it can be jarring at times. It averages out to "slightly offputting" for most people. You know, how someone seems "just a bit off." Like, if you met me in person you'd probably admit I walk sort of funny. I have a super limited range of food I can eat because the taste and texture have to "match" or else it comes right back up (extreme case: I will eat ketchup but not the red sauce on pizza). Even the way the same food is PRESENTED can change the way it -tastes- for me. As a young child I required my ketchup to be in a perfect circle before I ate. I had an actual argument today with a convenience store clerk because I made a conscious decision to buy a $.29 cup for the nacho cheese for my nachos and she basically looked at me like a damn idiot because yes, for me, the way the cheese is placed [in the cup rather than spread out over an area or on top] makes enough of a difference that the extra $.29 is worth it. I still don't think she got it. One of the wonderful things about AS is the ability to make people mad at you because you've done something that you have no idea is socially unacceptable because you haven't Rote learned the situation or anything similar yet. It's also why AS gets flack from a lot of people -- when someone with AS is being a jerk without realising it, you can't really tell them apart from an otherwise normal person who just sucks. Thus, we all get lumped into the "people who are just blaming their self deficiencies on a disease" group that you hear a lot of total rubbish about. Seriously, just being awkward or a bit dickish is not a sufficient condition to have AS. It just means you're an awkward dick.

Oh, there's also that awesome AS tendency to go on long rants about narrow or mundane things (You don't say?). And the obsessive interests, I've had a few of those. I couldn't remember were my car keys were for the last week but I'm pretty sure I can recite the name of every level of Super Mario World from memory. There's the constant need to fiddle with things. I shuffle poker chips pretty much the entire time I am on my computer (yes, poker is another one of my interests). You also have esoteric tastes in certain things -- I'll cringe at the top music station on the radio but the stuff I like to listen to sounds a lot like someone throwing a drum machine down a flight of stairs. That also makes it a bit harder to converse; your interest in narrow topics means you shut yourself out of things that most people tend to like to talk about. You can be twitchy. You can have about a billion other possible really small things that, while they don't really ruin any part of your life majorly, are things that if you don't address, will snowball into major problems. You think I'd have a job if I didn't memorise that whole eye contact thing? I'm still really shy just because the minor offputting things snowballed into me getting picked on a fair bit as a child, and now it's very difficult for me to talk to people I don't know well (I'm working on that, though).

So I guess my point is people with AS, in general, have a set of "things" they have to figure out how to deal with that most people don't and a lot of them can for the most part deal with them to some extent.

PS: No, not all people with AS are savants, either. I actually got kind of lucky with the mathematical abilities that sort of came with this whole "being a bit off" thing.

[Matt Morrison]

Really interesting stuff Steve. Appreciated that whilst having nothing to add, so I hope this awkwardly short and pointless message doesn't annoy you! Thanks man.

[Ian Volante]

Interesting indeed. I identify with a lot of what you say, although I now think I'm probably just an awkward dick.

[Mark James]

no matter how many times I'm asked where I'll see myself in 5 years, I'll still find a way to screw it up)

I like to use Mitch Hedberg's response which was "Celebrating the 5th anniversary of you asking me this question".

[Dinos Sfyris]

Cool post bro

[David Barnard]

Very good post Steve, with work it's possible to do anything when you have AS, I know I was given the same mathematical skills as you through it, I guess it has it's perks but you can also train yourself to be good in social situations like I did.