Not Written Down

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Marc Meakin
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Not Written Down

Post by Marc Meakin »

So you think Anne should ban not written down answers?
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Graeme Cole
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Graeme Cole »

No.

Am I missing some context to this post? Has anyone suggested banning not-written-down answers?
Gavin Chipper
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Marc Meakin has. (In another thread somewhere.)
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L'oisleatch McGraw
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by L'oisleatch McGraw »

No... Leave it alone.
One of Nick's greatest strengths was that he let the game run itself as much as possible without sticking his oar in. Colin Murray's brief stint reminded us how annoying it can be when the host feels a need to 'ref' the game.
Last edited by L'oisleatch McGraw on Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Marc Meakin
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Marc Meakin »

Graeme Cole wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:02 pm No.

Am I missing some context to this post? Has anyone suggested banning not-written-down answers?
I think I was commenting on Annes piece ti camera when she says will there be any changes and sh days no yet.
I feel that tablets should be used instead of pen and paper and fudging words and solutions after the clock should be outlawed.
Isnt 30 seconds sufficient time?
Am I the only one that thinks this?
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Gavin Chipper
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Marc Meakin wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:22 pm
Graeme Cole wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:02 pm No.

Am I missing some context to this post? Has anyone suggested banning not-written-down answers?
I think I was commenting on Annes piece ti camera when she says will there be any changes and sh days no yet.
I feel that tablets should be used instead of pen and paper and fudging words and solutions after the clock should be outlawed.
Isnt 30 seconds sufficient time?
Am I the only one that thinks this?
It can take a bit of time to write down a numbers solution once you've got it. The general idea is that you've got 30 seconds to find the solution. Also if you're one away, committing to writing that down in case you don't get any closer would be a big penalty compared to now.
Marc Meakin
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:45 pm
Marc Meakin wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:22 pm
Graeme Cole wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:02 pm No.

Am I missing some context to this post? Has anyone suggested banning not-written-down answers?
I think I was commenting on Annes piece ti camera when she says will there be any changes and sh days no yet.
I feel that tablets should be used instead of pen and paper and fudging words and solutions after the clock should be outlawed.
Isnt 30 seconds sufficient time?
Am I the only one that thinks this?
It can take a bit of time to write down a numbers solution once you've got it. The general idea is that you've got 30 seconds to find the solution. Also if you're one away, committing to writing that down in case you don't get any closer would be a big penalty compared to now.
What about when a letters declaration is not written down.
I cant remember when a not written down answer wasnt at least the same as their opponent.
I would say the majority of these answers took longer than the 30 seconds to find.
Ie the time it takes from the thirty seconds to finish and the first declaration (5 seconds)
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Marc Meakin
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Marc Meakin »

Another quirky idea of mine is for the conundrum to be written down before buzzing making the 1 second answers impossible.
This would also be consistant with writing all other answers.

Like i said before if the contestant used a tablet it would be a good modern innovation
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Sam Cappleman-Lynes
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Sam Cappleman-Lynes »

Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:16 am Another quirky idea of mine is for the conundrum to be written down before buzzing making the 1 second answers impossible.
This would also be consistant with writing all other answers.

Like i said before if the contestant used a tablet it would be a good modern innovation
1. This makes it a question of which contestant can write faster which is stupid

2. What's wrong with 1 second answers anyway?
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Marc Meakin »

Sam Cappleman-Lynes wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:57 am
Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:16 am Another quirky idea of mine is for the conundrum to be written down before buzzing making the 1 second answers impossible.
This would also be consistant with writing all other answers.

Like i said before if the contestant used a tablet it would be a good modern innovation
1. This makes it a question of which contestant can write faster which is stupid

2. What's wrong with 1 second answers anyway?
Its the same when someone on the Hit List or other games and Quiz shows answer ridiculously quick the average pleb hasnt got a chance to get it right at home.
Although my argument was more to do with bolstering my not written down proposal
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Marc Meakin
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Marc Meakin »

Amirite that Apterous games do not have after the 30 seconds answers?
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:19 am Amirite that Apterous games do not have after the 30 seconds answers?
You only need to get the first letter in by the end of the time.
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Marc Meakin »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:36 am
Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:19 am Amirite that Apterous games do not have after the 30 seconds answers?
You only need to get the first letter in by the end of the time.
What about numbers?
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Sam Cappleman-Lynes
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Sam Cappleman-Lynes »

For numbers you need to have your result declared but you can do the method after time.
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Re: Not Written Down

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Sam Cappleman-Lynes wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:19 pm For numbers you need to have your result declared but you can do the method after time.
And (if it still works like it did 7 years ago) if you are inputting solutions to anything after 30s there is a very strict patients bar which lasts about 5 seconds, and after that you are timed out.

I believe it is something like:

Letters: If you have a half written declaration, you get 5s to add it, but you can only backspace to the first letter (i.e the first letter gets locked in)
Conundrum: First letter is locked in, there is a 3 or 5s timer which refills every new letter you enter (but if you backspace and enter a new letter you don't get a refill)
Numbers: Similar to conundrums, but each click of the interface refills the timer.

Anyway, the existing system on the show is fine. However if they did want to innovate with an app on a tablet that they give to the players, shotgun making the app!
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Ben Wilson »

JackHurst wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:32 pmHowever if they did want to innovate with an app on a tablet that they give to the players, shotgun making the app!
Aren't you doing this anyway?
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Re: Not Written Down

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Ben Wilson wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:34 pm
JackHurst wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:32 pmHowever if they did want to innovate with an app on a tablet that they give to the players, shotgun making the app!
Aren't you doing this anyway?
Yeah I'm working on an app which would be a mobile phone app distributed via google play for people to play as a game. This wouldn't be suitable for use in the studio, they'd have different requirements. I reckon 80% of the code would end up being reused across both apps though.
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Adam Dexter »

JackHurst wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:32 pm ...there is a very strict patients bar which lasts about 5 seconds, and after that you are timed out.
Visions of doing shots in the hospital with this typo :) Think you missed an apostrophe though
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by JackHurst »

Adam Dexter wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:26 pm
JackHurst wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:32 pm ...there is a very strict patients bar which lasts about 5 seconds, and after that you are timed out.
Visions of doing shots in the hospital with this typo :) Think you missed an apostrophe though
rofl
Gavin Chipper
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by Gavin Chipper »

JackHurst wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:32 pm
Sam Cappleman-Lynes wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:19 pm For numbers you need to have your result declared but you can do the method after time.
And (if it still works like it did 7 years ago) if you are inputting solutions to anything after 30s there is a very strict patients bar which lasts about 5 seconds, and after that you are timed out.
Well, while we're here, I wouldn't say that the patience bar in the numbers round is particularly strict, or even remotely so. It used to even be that you could get double length for your first input but it seems that that loophole has been closed now.

But in any case, the five seconds (or whatever it is exactly) is for every key press (so even for just a +), when really if you've got your solution and aren't blagging you really need far less than that.

Also, it can be quite awkward to change your declaration towards the end of the time. So with all the extra time you get from blagging and the awkwardness involved in making your declaration within the time, it massively encourages just blagging for a spot-on solution, which you can declare in a single click. And the shorter the round time, the more this applies.

"Bullet" (3 seconds) and "beserk" (1 second) numbers are anything but, since all they do is shift the bulk of the solving time into the patience bar section.

Really the patience bar time should be at least halved and then take it from there. Possibly also allow declarations to be made after the time has run out. Blank the numbers and give a few seconds to make/change your declaration. This would shift the balance in favour of declaring what you have actually got in the time rather than encouraging the blag and penalising people for having to fiddle about to make a non-spot on declaration within the 30-second solving time. The game would be fairer and more balanced.

Why not make a ticket to suggest this instead of ranting here? I have done (more than once) and all I get is thumbs down with no explanation (or maybe the odd comment). I think people just don't want Apterous to suddenly be made harder in any way, but they don't really have any justification so don't comment. If I was in charge of Apterous, this is one case where I would override the democratic process in order to save the integrity of the game. (Slight exaggeration but basically not everything should just be based on an opinion poll.)
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by L'oisleatch McGraw »

JackHurst wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:32 pm And (if it still works like it did 7 years ago)
Which makes me wonder... you still play the game, so why the hell don't you just renew your sub and play it on a decent interface?
Is there beef between you and Charlie?
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by JackHurst »

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:56 pm
JackHurst wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:32 pm And (if it still works like it did 7 years ago)
Which makes me wonder... you still play the game, so why the hell don't you just renew your sub and play it on a decent interface?
Is there beef between you and Charlie?
I just got sick of not even being the best Jack in the room ;)
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by JackHurst »

JackHurst wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:03 am
L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:56 pm
JackHurst wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:32 pm And (if it still works like it did 7 years ago)
Which makes me wonder... you still play the game, so why the hell don't you just renew your sub and play it on a decent interface?
Is there beef between you and Charlie?
I just got sick of not even being the best Jack in the room ;)
In all seriousness...

At the point before I stopped playing, I found I was playing on it an awful lot out of habit without actually enjoying myself. The only thing I miss is Goatdown vs Rex/Prune.

In terms of warming up for competitive games (e.g. TV shows and Zoomdown), I have other options which give a much better return per minute spent.

I still think apterous is a great site and have no issues giving it/Charlie my money. I paid £5 a few months ago just to see my superstats graphs from years ago because I was curious.
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L'oisleatch McGraw
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by L'oisleatch McGraw »

JackHurst wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:03 am I just got sick of not even being the best Jack in the room ;)
Great answer! :mrgreen:

The Countdown community is weird. Hard to get your head around it. It differs in many ways from other fandoms I know.... but I'm not going into all of that, not yet anyway.

One thing that helps gives it its odd close knit feel, is the Apterous monopoly and the general consensus around that. There is no credible rival. The official App is a joke... and there is no real phone app as yet.

If you look at a similar (but bigger and less harmonious) fandom: that of Scrabble, they have 4 options:-
1. ISC.RO
2. WOOGLES.IO
3. SCRABBLE GO app
4. PLAYSCRAB.COM

"Scrabble Go!" from Scopely is the corporate monster... it has the backing of the companies that own the copyright to the board game and the name. It has a huge user base, and the tournament players - though they criticise it constantly - tend to use it, as it is so convenient.

"Playscrab" is the least popular of all of these, but seems well put together and well intentioned.

Then there are the interesting ones...
ISC has been around since the internet was invented, and it looks it. It has been the go-to website for top Scrabblers for a few decades now. Very recently, a group of young, dynamic, 'elite' players (think the Jen/Zarte clique at the peak of their powers c2015) came together to devise a new interface to rival ISC. It is called "Woogles". And the way they have marketed it has been (imo) rather nasty. An attitude of: ours is so much better, ours is so much more modern, why would anyone stay on that outdated site, ISC is only for old people who are set in their ways. They haven't spoken those exact words... but the vibe has been there. Oddly enough, Woogles have ripped-off so many aspects of what makes ISC great, they should really be showing the more established site a bit more respect. There is not that much of a difference. Both sites are as easy to navigate and as fast. Main difference is you are more likely to get a game instantly at any time of day on ISC because -for now- it still has momentum as its trump card.

Anyway... where this rant comes from, is that - it strikes me as odd that the person most likely to establish a credible rival to Apterous (aka JH), is one of the few people who actively plays the game, yet is not on Apto, and hasn't been for 7 years. It makes me wonder if, down the line, CD may get its very own ISC vs WOOGLES moment?

I hope not, though it is hard to envisage a situation whereby another fan-run app/site - if it manages to come anywhere close to how good Apto is - is able to co-exist with Apto, without a rivalry developing.
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Re: Not Written Down

Post by JackHurst »

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:42 pm
JackHurst wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:03 am I just got sick of not even being the best Jack in the room ;)

Anyway... where this rant comes from, is that - it strikes me as odd that the person most likely to establish a credible rival to Apterous (aka JH), is one of the few people who actively plays the game, yet is not on Apto, and hasn't been for 7 years. It makes me wonder if, down the line, CD may get its very own ISC vs WOOGLES moment?

I hope not, though it is hard to envisage a situation whereby another fan-run app/site - if it manages to come anywhere close to how good Apto is - is able to co-exist with Apto, without a rivalry developing.
Interesting information in this post, thanks!

I don't intend on rivalling apterous with an app. I think Apterous is and always will be the best place to go for countdown if you care about real time games, making friends, having detailed statistics and lots of variants on the game. Also apterous is the reason I was able to win a series of Countdown! I'd never knowingly do anything to damage it!

Apterous is brilliant at doing countdown, but the smart phone integration is poor (admittedly I have no checked this out in a while myself in a while but I have heard so many times 2nd hand). The available countdown apps are poor at doing countdown and ok/good at doing smart phones. My aim is to make an app that's very good at doing countdown and very good at doing smartphone.

Another thing that's awesome about having an app is the sheer number of possibilities it unlocks:
- You can play anywhere! (Recently I've played while walking to work, while in a queue at the shop, while waiting to get my haircut and also while on a train)
- You don't need an internet connection (apterous is reliant on the server doing the validation, but on a phone you can build that into the app)
- It takes about 5 seconds for me to open my phone, go into the app and have a fully populated Letters/Numbers/Conundrum in front of me.
- An app integrated with a mobile phone has so many more possibilities that are easy to develop. E.g. in a week, I could have a podcast mode that reads rounds out word lists to you so you can learn words while hands free! You could also do things like link a player to a round you liked and they get to see it by playing it in the app. So many more things too!
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