How-To Guides

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Jimmy Gough
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Jimmy Gough »

Junaid Mubeen wrote:
Jimmy wrote:
Clare Sudbery wrote:Another nice rule:

37 * 3 = 111, so any target with three identical digits can be factorized that way.

[edited significantly]

[cough]
Sorry, sorry, sorry for being stupid. I still don't understand how this works?? :)
aaa = 111xa = 3x37xa where a is a whole number between 1 and 9.
So given a target of aaa, you just need to make the numbers 3, 37 and a from the ones that you have.
Thank you.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Kirk Bevins »

Interestingly (maybe?), we know 555 is a multiple of 111 and thus 37. The number of times 37 goes into 555 is just the sum of its digits, so 5+5+5=15, i.e. 37x15=555.

Similarly, 888 is 37x24 and 999 is 37x27. Could prove useful in 6 small selections.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Jimmy Gough »

Was wondering whether you reckon it'd be possible to just memorise all the possible solutions for 4 big numbers. I highly doubt anybody would ever do it, but do you think it's actually possible?
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Junaid Mubeen »

Jimmy wrote:Was wondering whether you reckon it'd be possible to just memorise all the possible solutions for 4 big numbers. I highly doubt anybody would ever do it, but do you think it's actually possible?
Since there are only finitely many solutions I have no doubt it is possible. However it is extremely likely I'd have lost the will to live by the time I ever got there.
Last edited by Junaid Mubeen on Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
David Williams
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by David Williams »

37 does indeed divide into 111, but I would caution against trying to use that fact. I've said before that factorising is dangerous, as you have nothing at all to declare if it doesn't quite work. And making 37 is going to use at least three of the numbers. If it's an even target you might be able to use, say, 888 = 74x12, making the 74 out of 75-1. But your untutored opponent who starts by making 75x12 is only going to be a second behind you.

The one factoring I do think is worth remembering is that 504 = 9x8x7. If you have six small including those three it's a basis for attacking anything within a hundred or more either side. I can even recall one occasion when 504 was actually the target, the numbers were 25 9 8 7 x y, and Carol didn't get it.

I also put something up about a general method, particularly with six small. Another example would be 653/10 is 65. 65/9 is 7. 10x9x8 = 720 which is 67 away. 9x8 = 72, so what's (10-1)x9x8? 648. Add 5 = 653, and a ten point won round in CoC 14/01. I rest my case.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Kirk Bevins »

David Williams wrote:37 does indeed divide into 111, but I would caution against trying to use that fact. I've said before that factorising is dangerous, as you have nothing at all to declare if it doesn't quite work. And making 37 is going to use at least three of the numbers. If it's an even target you might be able to use, say, 888 = 74x12, making the 74 out of 75-1. But your untutored opponent who starts by making 75x12 is only going to be a second behind you.

The one factoring I do think is worth remembering is that 504 = 9x8x7. If you have six small including those three it's a basis for attacking anything within a hundred or more either side. I can even recall one occasion when 504 was actually the target, the numbers were 25 9 8 7 x y, and Carol didn't get it.

I also put something up about a general method, particularly with six small. Another example would be 653/10 is 65. 65/9 is 7. 10x9x8 = 720 which is 67 away. 9x8 = 72, so what's (10-1)x9x8? 648. Add 5 = 653, and a ten point won round in CoC 14/01. I rest my case.
653/10 is 65? Huh? 65/9=7? Huh, 63/9 is 7. I'm confused.

Anyway, as with 4 large, you try to get close like 1 or 2 away FIRST by a "normal" method then try these clever techniques to see if you can come close. Sometimes in one large selections (e.g. with a 25 as the big number as this usually causes a problem) a 37 can be made easily.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by David Williams »

Kirk, I'm so sorry about being confusing. Obviously I should have said "about 10" and "about 7", spelled out the numbers in full, referred extensively to my previous post. If you're confused, given the number of times you've contributed to this thread, then everyone else must be completely baffled. I am firmly resolved not to over-estimate intelligence again.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Phil Reynolds »

David Williams wrote:I can even recall one occasion when 504 was actually the target, the numbers were 25 9 8 7 x y, and Carol didn't get it.
Yeah, I remember that. I didn't know that 504 = 9x8x7, but 504 is obviously divisible by 9 so I worked out 504/9 = 56 and realised that 56 was a simple product of two of the remaining numbers. I was mildly surprised when neither contestant got it, but thoroughly gobsmacked when Carol didn't either.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Kirk Bevins »

David Williams wrote:Kirk, I'm so sorry about being confusing. Obviously I should have said "about 10" and "about 7", spelled out the numbers in full, referred extensively to my previous post. If you're confused, given the number of times you've contributed to this thread, then everyone else must be completely baffled. I am firmly resolved not to over-estimate intelligence again.
Wow, this didn't help matters much. Do you mean you're giving us an approximation to a division? Hmmm...OK.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Michael Wallace »

David Williams wrote:Kirk, I'm so sorry about being confusing. Obviously I should have said "about 10" and "about 7", spelled out the numbers in full, referred extensively to my previous post. If you're confused, given the number of times you've contributed to this thread, then everyone else must be completely baffled. I am firmly resolved not to over-estimate intelligence again.
Just for balance, I knew what you meant.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Jimmy wrote:
Jon O'Neill wrote:Just PRACTISE and eventually you will be good!
Seriously? You don't use any other methods for improvement? Surely there's a lot more to it to be that good?
I think he's trying to stop others being as good as him. :mrgreen:

I know having watched Countdown many times and played along, as well as playing Apterous, that I will never be particularly good through just practising. If I could ever be bothered, I'm sure I would improve massively by applying various learning techniques.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Junaid Mubeen wrote:
Jimmy wrote:Was wondering whether you reckon it'd be possible to just memorise all the possible solutions for 4 big numbers. I highly doubt anybody would ever do it, but do you think it's actually possible?
Since there are only finitely many solutions I have no doubt it is possible. However it is extremely likely I'd have lost the will to live by the time I ever got there.
I've considered that before as well (whether it's doable that is - I've never been about to embark on the project).
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Jon O'Neill
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Jimmy wrote:
Jon O'Neill wrote:Just PRACTISE and eventually you will be good!
Seriously? You don't use any other methods for improvement? Surely there's a lot more to it to be that good?
Seriously. Most of these techniques help by engaging your mind with letters and numbers, but you would benefit just as much from playing the game itself. I think proper word-learning practise will only make a difference to your ability when you're at a certain level, and by the time you're at that level you won't be reading this thread looking for tips anyway.

Although now I think about it, try doing lots of 10-second rounds. That way you can practise twice as much in the same time period.
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Jon O'Neill
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Junaid Mubeen wrote:
Jimmy wrote:Was wondering whether you reckon it'd be possible to just memorise all the possible solutions for 4 big numbers. I highly doubt anybody would ever do it, but do you think it's actually possible?
Since there are only finitely many solutions I have no doubt it is possible. However it is extremely likely I'd have lost the will to live by the time I ever got there.
I've considered that before as well (whether it's doable that is - I've never been about to embark on the project).
Too hard, I reckon. I think a more achievable goal that would be almost as useful is learning the prime factors of every target.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Kirk Bevins wrote:
David Williams wrote:Kirk, I'm so sorry about being confusing. Obviously I should have said "about 10" and "about 7", spelled out the numbers in full, referred extensively to my previous post. If you're confused, given the number of times you've contributed to this thread, then everyone else must be completely baffled. I am firmly resolved not to over-estimate intelligence again.
Wow, this didn't help matters much. Do you mean you're giving us an approximation to a division? Hmmm...OK.
I can't speak for David's motivation but I found it all the more amusing because I can imagine you cutting down someone's post in an equally harsh manner.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by JackHurst »

I would like to know from any previous contestants about the paper you get to use for doing your working out. Are you given a choice of different notepads? Is there a limit as to how much paper you can use? And if there is a limit, how much? And if you do get given a specific type of notepad to use, how big is it. I think this information is failry insignificant, but if you're the type to be tediously organised, it would help when thinking about how you are going to set up your working method on the page.

To add to what people have mentioned about spotting factors, i think if your gonna do this, you need to be quick at using the factor tests (i.e multiples of 3 have a digital sum of a multiple of 3, etc.) one such test which is not well known is the test for multiples of seven. If you do already know this, I'm sorry, but i want to explain it for the benefit of the people who dont.

Testing for a factor of 7:
Remove the last digit form the number, double this digit. Then subtract this value from what is left of the original number. If the resultant number is a multiple of seven then the original number is too:

182, 18|2, 18-4=14, which is a multiple of seven
301, 30|1, 30-2=28, which is a multiple of seven

Using this would work best for a target number which yeilds no factors which are easier to spot first, such as an odd number which is not divisible by 5 or 3, and of course, only check for a factor of 7 is there is one in the selection (or if one can be easily creatd).
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Gavin Chipper »

JackHurst wrote:Testing for a factor of 7:
Remove the last digit form the number, double this digit. Then subtract this value from what is left of the original number. If the resultant number is a multiple of seven then the original number is too:

182, 18|2, 18-4=14, which is a multiple of seven
301, 30|1, 30-2=28, which is a multiple of seven
That's pretty long-winded. You might as well just divide 7 into it and see if there's a remainder. With your method you would have to do that as well if you found it was divisible by 7.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Charlie Reams »

JackHurst wrote:I would like to know from any previous contestants about the paper you get to use for doing your working out. Are you given a choice of different notepads? Is there a limit as to how much paper you can use? And if there is a limit, how much? And if you do get given a specific type of notepad to use, how big is it. I think this information is failry insignificant, but if you're the type to be tediously organised, it would help when thinking about how you are going to set up your working method on the page.
If you're at the point where these factors are likely to affect you then you're either amazingly good or amazingly autistic; in either case, you'll fit right in here.

To answer your question, you get an effectively unlimited supply of loose A5 sheets.
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Jon O'Neill
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Gavin Chipper wrote:
JackHurst wrote:Testing for a factor of 7:
Remove the last digit form the number, double this digit. Then subtract this value from what is left of the original number. If the resultant number is a multiple of seven then the original number is too:

182, 18|2, 18-4=14, which is a multiple of seven
301, 30|1, 30-2=28, which is a multiple of seven
That's pretty long-winded. You might as well just divide 7 into it and see if there's a remainder. With your method you would have to do that as well if you found it was divisible by 7.
I disagree, this could be quite useful. Although I'm pretty fast at working it out the long way anyway.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by JackHurst »

Charlie Reams wrote: To answer your question, you get an effectively unlimited supply of loose A5 sheets.
Do they have a fancy countdown heading on them?
Charlie Reams wrote: If you're at the point where these factors are likely to affect you then you're either amazingly good or amazingly autistic; in either case, you'll fit right in here.
The two aren't mutually eclusive, i've seen many contestant who appear to be amazingly good and amazingly autistic. Infact, i'd go as for as saying that 90% of autistic contestants appear to be very good. :)
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Jon O'Neill
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Jon O'Neill »

JackHurst wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote: To answer your question, you get an effectively unlimited supply of loose A5 sheets.
Do they have a fancy countdown heading on them?
It's black and white, but yes.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Clare Sudbery »

Junaid Mubeen wrote:Wow, my longest and probably most boring post to date.
Not at all, I found it genuinely fascinating.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Martin Gardner »

Jon O'Neill wrote:
Gavin Chipper wrote:
JackHurst wrote:Testing for a factor of 7:
Remove the last digit form the number, double this digit. Then subtract this value from what is left of the original number. If the resultant number is a multiple of seven then the original number is too:

182, 18|2, 18-4=14, which is a multiple of seven
301, 30|1, 30-2=28, which is a multiple of seven
That's pretty long-winded. You might as well just divide 7 into it and see if there's a remainder. With your method you would have to do that as well if you found it was divisible by 7.
I disagree, this could be quite useful. Although I'm pretty fast at working it out the long way anyway.
I tend to agree with Gevin, I can do it quicker the "long" way than the short one.
If you cut a gandiseeg in half, do you get two gandiseegs or two halves of a gandiseeg?
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Martin Gardner
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Martin Gardner »

This reminds me there's a method to find the nearest multiple of nine as well, that I use loads on six small one games, including one of my own episode. The rule is that is three numbers have to add up to 9, 18 or 27 (of course the only such number is 999). Then to work out the last digit, you take away the last digit of the target from 10, so the last digit of 79 x 9 is a one. so you've got 711, it is divisible by 9 and the last digit is 9 because it ends in one. Then, unless anyone else has an idea, you have to estimate what the first digit is. I don't really have a clear solution for this, but it's either going to be the first of the three digits, or the first of the three digits plus one. I've been using this method so long, it's become quite automatic. So here is the numbers game I was actually faced with in my semi-final.

6, 7, 7, 5, 10, 9 - TARGET 314

OK. 3+1+4 = 8 so 315 is divisible by 9. The last digit must be a five (10 - 5 = 5), so by approximation it has to be 35*9. 350-35 = 315 so that's right. So I did 7*5*9 = 315 then 7-6 = 1

My opponent, who won the game did 6*5*10+7+7 which is even easier, I suppose.
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Lesley Jeavons
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Lesley Jeavons »

This thread is fascinating. I do well at numbers just by having good quick mental arithmetic skills, but if I knew / now learn some of these (for want of a better word) tricks, I'm sure I could be amazing!

Martin what you've just posted is interesting, and I'll have to try it, but my brain just immediately would find out how many 9s go in to the target, and is the remainder one of the numbers I have to use, and then work backwards. I'm glad you were able to put your method to good use in an actual game! :)

It was interesting what someone said earlier about immediately in the 30 seconds trying to get near the target so they at least have something to declare, before trying to find the exact solution.

And that 3 x 37 = 111 rule is fantastic! I now know parts of the 37 times table in a way I never did before.

Keep it coming! :D
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Joseph Bolas »

I don't know if this will help, but you might want a list of all the 3-numbered targets, from 101-999, that can be achieved just by multiplying any three small numbers from 2-9:

8 x 9 x 9 = 648, 4 x 8 x 8 = 256, 4 x 5 x 8 = 160
8 x 8 x 9 = 576, 4 x 7 x 9 = 252, 5 x 5 x 6 = 150
7 x 9 x 9 = 567, 6 x 6 x 7 = 252, 3 x 7 x 7 = 147
7 x 8 x 9 = 504, 5 x 7 x 7 = 245, 2 x 8 x 9 = 144
6 x 9 x 9 = 486, 3 x 9 x 9 = 243, 4 x 4 x 9 = 144
7 x 8 x 8 = 448, 5 x 6 x 8 = 240, 3 x 6 x 8 = 144
7 x 7 x 9 = 441, 5 x 5 x 9 = 225, 4 x 6 x 6 = 144
6 x 8 x 9 = 432, 4 x 7 x 8 = 224, 4 x 5 x 7 = 140
5 x 9 x 9 = 405, 3 x 8 x 9 = 216, 3 x 5 x 9 = 135
7 x 7 x 8 = 392, 4 x 6 x 9 = 216, 2 x 8 x 8 = 128
6 x 8 x 8 = 384, 5 x 6 x 7 = 210, 4 x 4 x 8 = 128
6 x 7 x 9 = 378, 5 x 5 x 8 = 200, 2 x 7 x 9 = 126
5 x 8 x 9 = 360, 4 x 7 x 7 = 196, 3 x 6 x 7 = 126
6 x 7 x 8 = 336, 3 x 8 x 8 = 192, 3 x 5 x 8 = 120
4 x 9 x 9 = 324, 4 x 6 x 8 = 192, 4 x 5 x 6 = 120
6 x 6 x 9 = 324, 3 x 7 x 9 = 189, 2 x 7 x 8 = 112
5 x 8 x 8 = 320, 4 x 5 x 9 = 180, 4 x 4 x 7 = 112
5 x 7 x 9 = 315, 5 x 6 x 6 = 180, 2 x 6 x 9 = 108
6 x 7 x 7 = 294, 5 x 5 x 7 = 175, 3 x 4 x 9 = 108
4 x 8 x 9 = 288, 3 x 7 x 8 = 168, 3 x 6 x 6 = 108
6 x 6 x 8 = 288, 4 x 6 x 7 = 168, 3 x 5 x 7 = 105
5 x 7 x 8 = 280, 2 x 9 x 9 = 162,
5 x 6 x 9 = 270, 3 x 6 x 9 = 162,

EDIT: Apologies for the layout, but there was meant to be 10 spaces between the lists and posting in one list, would've been too big a post :)

Also there are 164 targets using 4 numbers, 83 targets using 5 numbers and 5 targets using all 6 numbers :)
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Gavin Chipper »

You forgot 9 x 9 x upside down 6 = 729.

http://www.thecountdownpage.com/final14.htm
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Joseph Bolas wrote:Also there are 164 targets using 4 numbers, 83 targets using 5 numbers and 5 targets using all 6 numbers :)
We're waiting...

;)
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Joseph Bolas »

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Joseph Bolas wrote:Also there are 164 targets using 4 numbers, 83 targets using 5 numbers and 5 targets using all 6 numbers :)
We're waiting... ;)
Okay then, here they are. Again apologies for the layout:

4 numbers:

2 x 6 x 9 x 9 = 972, 3 x 5 x 6 x 8 = 720, 3 x 3 x 7 x 8 = 504, 2 x 5 x 5 x 7 = 350, 2 x 2 x 6 x 9 = 216,
3 x 4 x 9 x 9 = 972, 4 x 5 x 6 x 6 = 720, 2 x 6 x 6 x 7 = 504, 2 x 3 x 7 x 8 = 336, 2 x 3 x 4 x 9 = 216,
3 x 6 x 6 x 9 = 972, 4 x 5 x 5 x 7 = 700, 3 x 4 x 6 x 7 = 504, 2 x 4 x 6 x 7 = 336, 2 x 3 x 6 x 6 = 216,
3 x 5 x 8 x 8 = 960, 3 x 5 x 5 x 9 = 675, 2 x 5 x 7 x 7 = 490, 3 x 4 x 4 x 7 = 336, 3 x 3 x 4 x 6 = 216,
4 x 5 x 6 x 8 = 960, 2 x 6 x 7 x 8 = 672, 2 x 3 x 9 x 9 = 486, 2 x 2 x 9 x 9 = 324, 2 x 3 x 5 x 7 = 210,
3 x 5 x 7 x 9 = 945, 3 x 4 x 7 x 8 = 672, 3 x 3 x 6 x 9 = 486, 2 x 3 x 6 x 9 = 324, 2 x 4 x 5 x 5 = 200,
4 x 5 x 5 x 9 = 900, 4 x 4 x 6 x 7 = 672, 2 x 5 x 6 x 8 = 480, 3 x 3 x 4 x 9 = 324, 2 x 2 x 7 x 7 = 196,
5 x 5 x 6 x 6 = 900, 2 x 4 x 9 x 9 = 648, 3 x 4 x 5 x 8 = 480, 3 x 3 x 6 x 6 = 324, 2 x 2 x 6 x 8 = 192,
2 x 7 x 8 x 8 = 896, 3 x 3 x 8 x 9 = 648, 4 x 4 x 5 x 6 = 480, 2 x 4 x 5 x 8 = 320, 2 x 3 x 4 x 8 = 192,
4 x 4 x 7 x 8 = 896, 2 x 6 x 6 x 9 = 648, 2 x 5 x 5 x 9 = 450, 3 x 3 x 5 x 7 = 315, 2 x 4 x 4 x 6 = 192,
2 x 7 x 7 x 9 = 882, 3 x 4 x 6 x 9 = 648, 3 x 5 x 5 x 6 = 450, 2 x 5 x 5 x 6 = 300, 2 x 2 x 5 x 9 = 180,
3 x 6 x 7 x 7 = 882, 2 x 5 x 8 x 8 = 640, 2 x 4 x 7 x 8 = 448, 3 x 4 x 5 x 5 = 300, 2 x 3 x 5 x 6 = 180,
2 x 6 x 8 x 9 = 864, 4 x 4 x 5 x 8 = 640, 3 x 3 x 7 x 7 = 441, 2 x 3 x 7 x 7 = 294, 3 x 3 x 4 x 5 = 180,
3 x 4 x 8 x 9 = 864, 2 x 5 x 7 x 9 = 630, 2 x 3 x 8 x 9 = 432, 2 x 2 x 8 x 9 = 288, 2 x 2 x 6 x 7 = 168,
4 x 4 x 6 x 9 = 864, 3 x 5 x 6 x 7 = 630, 2 x 4 x 6 x 9 = 432, 2 x 4 x 4 x 9 = 288, 2 x 3 x 4 x 7 = 168,
3 x 6 x 6 x 8 = 864, 3 x 5 x 5 x 8 = 600, 3 x 4 x 4 x 9 = 432, 2 x 3 x 6 x 8 = 288, 2 x 3 x 3 x 9 = 162,
3 x 5 x 7 x 8 = 840, 4 x 5 x 5 x 6 = 600, 3 x 3 x 6 x 8 = 432, 3 x 3 x 4 x 8 = 288, 2 x 2 x 5 x 8 = 160,
4 x 5 x 6 x 7 = 840, 2 x 6 x 7 x 7 = 588, 3 x 4 x 6 x 6 = 432, 2 x 4 x 6 x 6 = 288, 2 x 4 x 4 x 5 = 160,
2 x 5 x 9 x 9 = 810, 3 x 4 x 7 x 7 = 588, 2 x 5 x 6 x 7 = 420, 3 x 4 x 4 x 6 = 288, 2 x 3 x 5 x 5 = 150,
3 x 5 x 6 x 9 = 810, 2 x 4 x 8 x 9 = 576, 3 x 4 x 5 x 7 = 420, 2 x 4 x 5 x 7 = 280, 2 x 2 x 4 x 9 = 144,
4 x 5 x 5 x 8 = 800, 3 x 3 x 8 x 8 = 576, 3 x 3 x 5 x 9 = 405, 2 x 3 x 5 x 9 = 270, 2 x 3 x 3 x 8 = 144,
2 x 7 x 7 x 8 = 784, 2 x 6 x 6 x 8 = 576, 2 x 5 x 5 x 8 = 400, 3 x 3 x 5 x 6 = 270, 2 x 2 x 6 x 6 = 144,
4 x 4 x 7 x 7 = 784, 3 x 4 x 6 x 8 = 576, 4 x 4 x 5 x 5 = 400, 2 x 2 x 8 x 8 = 256, 2 x 3 x 4 x 6 = 144,
2 x 6 x 8 x 8 = 768, 4 x 4 x 6 x 6 = 576, 2 x 4 x 7 x 7 = 392, 2 x 4 x 4 x 8 = 256, 3 x 3 x 4 x 4 = 144,
3 x 4 x 8 x 8 = 768, 3 x 3 x 7 x 9 = 567, 2 x 3 x 8 x 8 = 384, 2 x 2 x 7 x 9 = 252, 2 x 2 x 5 x 7 = 140,
4 x 4 x 6 x 8 = 768, 2 x 5 x 7 x 8 = 560, 2 x 4 x 6 x 8 = 384, 2 x 3 x 6 x 7 = 252, 2 x 2 x 4 x 8 = 128,
2 x 6 x 7 x 9 = 756, 4 x 4 x 5 x 7 = 560, 3 x 4 x 4 x 8 = 384, 3 x 3 x 4 x 7 = 252, 2 x 3 x 3 x 7 = 126,
3 x 4 x 7 x 9 = 756, 2 x 5 x 6 x 9 = 540, 2 x 3 x 7 x 9 = 378, 2 x 3 x 5 x 8 = 240, 2 x 2 x 5 x 6 = 120,
3 x 6 x 6 x 7 = 756, 3 x 4 x 5 x 9 = 540, 3 x 3 x 6 x 7 = 378, 2 x 4 x 5 x 6 = 240, 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 = 120,
3 x 5 x 7 x 7 = 735, 3 x 5 x 6 x 6 = 540, 2 x 4 x 5 x 9 = 360, 3 x 4 x 4 x 5 = 240, 2 x 2 x 4 x 7 = 112,
3 x 3 x 9 x 9 = 729, 3 x 5 x 5 x 7 = 525, 3 x 3 x 5 x 8 = 360, 3 x 3 x 5 x 5 = 225, 2 x 2 x 3 x 9 = 108,
2 x 5 x 8 x 9 = 720, 2 x 4 x 8 x 8 = 512, 2 x 5 x 6 x 6 = 360, 2 x 2 x 7 x 8 = 224, 2 x 3 x 3 x 6 = 108,
4 x 4 x 5 x 9 = 720, 2 x 4 x 7 x 9 = 504, 3 x 4 x 5 x 6 = 360, 2 x 4 x 4 x 7 = 224,

5 numbers:

2 x 2 x 5 x 7 x 7 = 980, 2 x 2 x 5 x 6 x 7 = 840, 2 x 2 x 3 x 7 x 8 = 672, 2 x 2 x 3 x 5 x 9 = 540, 2 x 2 x 3 x 5 x 6 = 360,
2 x 2 x 3 x 9 x 9 = 972, 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 7 = 840, 2 x 2 x 4 x 6 x 7 = 672, 2 x 3 x 3 x 5 x 6 = 540, 2 x 3 x 3 x 4 x 5 = 360,
2 x 3 x 3 x 6 x 9 = 972, 2 x 3 x 3 x 5 x 9 = 810, 2 x 3 x 4 x 4 x 7 = 672, 2 x 2 x 4 x 4 x 8 = 512, 2 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 7 = 336,
2 x 2 x 5 x 6 x 8 = 960, 2 x 2 x 5 x 5 x 8 = 800, 2 x 2 x 3 x 6 x 9 = 648, 2 x 2 x 3 x 6 x 7 = 504, 2 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 9 = 324,
2 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 8 = 960, 2 x 4 x 4 x 5 x 5 = 800, 2 x 3 x 3 x 4 x 9 = 648, 2 x 3 x 3 x 4 x 7 = 504, 2 x 2 x 4 x 4 x 5 = 320,
2 x 4 x 4 x 5 x 6 = 960, 2 x 2 x 4 x 7 x 7 = 784, 2 x 3 x 3 x 6 x 6 = 648, 2 x 2 x 3 x 5 x 8 = 480, 2 x 2 x 3 x 5 x 5 = 300,
2 x 2 x 5 x 5 x 9 = 900, 2 x 2 x 3 x 8 x 8 = 768, 2 x 2 x 4 x 5 x 8 = 640, 2 x 2 x 4 x 5 x 6 = 480, 2 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 8 = 288,
2 x 3 x 5 x 5 x 6 = 900, 2 x 2 x 4 x 6 x 8 = 768, 2 x 3 x 3 x 5 x 7 = 630, 2 x 3 x 4 x 4 x 5 = 480, 2 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 6 = 288,
3 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 5 = 900, 2 x 3 x 4 x 4 x 8 = 768, 2 x 2 x 5 x 5 x 6 = 600, 2 x 3 x 3 x 5 x 5 = 450, 2 x 3 x 3 x 4 x 4 = 288,
2 x 2 x 4 x 7 x 8 = 896, 2 x 2 x 3 x 7 x 9 = 756, 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 5 = 600, 2 x 2 x 4 x 4 x 7 = 448, 2 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 7 = 252,
2 x 3 x 3 x 7 x 7 = 882, 2 x 3 x 3 x 6 x 7 = 756, 2 x 2 x 3 x 7 x 7 = 588, 2 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 9 = 432, 2 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 = 240,
2 x 2 x 3 x 8 x 9 = 864, 2 x 2 x 4 x 5 x 9 = 720, 2 x 2 x 4 x 4 x 9 = 576, 2 x 2 x 3 x 6 x 6 = 432, 2 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 6 = 216,
2 x 2 x 4 x 6 x 9 = 864, 2 x 3 x 3 x 5 x 8 = 720, 2 x 2 x 3 x 6 x 8 = 576, 2 x 3 x 3 x 4 x 6 = 432, 2 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 4 = 192,
2 x 3 x 4 x 4 x 9 = 864, 2 x 2 x 5 x 6 x 6 = 720, 2 x 3 x 3 x 4 x 8 = 576, 2 x 2 x 3 x 5 x 7 = 420, 2 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 5 = 180,
2 x 3 x 3 x 6 x 8 = 864, 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 6 = 720, 2 x 2 x 4 x 6 x 6 = 576, 2 x 2 x 4 x 5 x 5 = 400, 2 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 4 = 144,
2 x 3 x 4 x 6 x 6 = 864, 3 x 3 x 4 x 4 x 5 = 720, 2 x 3 x 4 x 4 x 6 = 576, 2 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 8 = 384,
3 x 3 x 4 x 4 x 6 = 864, 2 x 2 x 5 x 5 x 7 = 700, 2 x 2 x 4 x 5 x 7 = 560, 2 x 2 x 4 x 4 x 6 = 384,

6 numbers:

2 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 4 x 5 = 960
2 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 5 x 5 = 900
2 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 4 x 6 = 864
2 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 4 x 5 = 720
2 x 2 x 3 x 3 x 4 x 4 = 576
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Junaid Mubeen »

Omg, you actually did it. You typed them all out. Anyway, it's probably better (and more interesting as well as useful outside of Countdown, dare I say it) to practise mental arithmetic so you can calculate these products at will rather than recalling them from memory. However certain ones crop up so often that they are worth remembering, like

7x8x9=504
8x9x9=648
6x7x8=336

(and many others)
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Clare Sudbery »

God I love this thread. Spent many happy hours this evening mucking about with 6-small numbers games.

That is all. ;)
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Clare Sudbery »

Jon O'Neill wrote:
Jimmy wrote:
Jon O'Neill wrote:Just PRACTISE and eventually you will be good!
Seriously? You don't use any other methods for improvement? Surely there's a lot more to it to be that good?
Seriously. Most of these techniques help by engaging your mind with letters and numbers, but you would benefit just as much from playing the game itself. I think proper word-learning practise will only make a difference to your ability when you're at a certain level, and by the time you're at that level you won't be reading this thread looking for tips anyway.
Fwiw I'm at a level where word-learning practice is genuinely beneficial (that level may be lower than whatever you're contemplating, I dunno - all I can tell you is that it's helping), but I'm still reading this thread.

As for this...
Jon O'Neill wrote:Most of these techniques help by engaging your mind with letters and numbers, but you would benefit just as much from playing the game itself.
Again, my experience contradicts this. I've spent the last week trying to get better at 6-small numbers games. At first I just played several 6-small numbers games in the practice-makes-perfect model, and got nowhere. I'm not fast at mental arithmetic, and I just kept panicking. I'm pretty good at numbers games as long as there's at least one big'un in there, but without that prop I was totally floundering.

But then I attacked the problem more methodically - first I came up with my own general principles, then came and looked on here, and now that I have a methodology, a series of techniques to apply when looking at 6-small, my performance has dramatically improved. Obviously I've had to practice these new techiques in order to get good at them, and that should go without saying. But to go back to the musical-instrument analogy... if you want to get good at playing a particular piece, it helps to know which notes to play, which keys to press, how to press them etc. My previous approach was the equivalent of playing any old random notes, over and over. It was getting me nowhere.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Clare Sudbery wrote:
Jon O'Neill wrote:
Jimmy wrote:Seriously? You don't use any other methods for improvement? Surely there's a lot more to it to be that good?
Seriously. Most of these techniques help by engaging your mind with letters and numbers, but you would benefit just as much from playing the game itself. I think proper word-learning practise will only make a difference to your ability when you're at a certain level, and by the time you're at that level you won't be reading this thread looking for tips anyway.
Fwiw I'm at a level where word-learning practice is genuinely beneficial (that level may be lower than whatever you're contemplating, I dunno - all I can tell you is that it's helping), but I'm still reading this thread.

As for this...
Jon O'Neill wrote:Most of these techniques help by engaging your mind with letters and numbers, but you would benefit just as much from playing the game itself.
Again, my experience contradicts this. I've spent the last week trying to get better at 6-small numbers games. At first I just played several 6-small numbers games in the practice-makes-perfect model, and got nowhere. I'm not fast at mental arithmetic, and I just kept panicking. I'm pretty good at numbers games as long as there's at least one big'un in there, but without that prop I was totally floundering.

But then I attacked the problem more methodically - first I came up with my own general principles, then came and looked on here, and now that I have a methodology, a series of techniques to apply when looking at 6-small, my performance has dramatically improved. Obviously I've had to practice these new techiques in order to get good at them, and that should go without saying. But to go back to the musical-instrument analogy... if you want to get good at playing a particular piece, it helps to know which notes to play, which keys to press, how to press them etc. My previous approach was the equivalent of playing any old random notes, over and over. It was getting me nowhere.
Well I can't really argue with evidence but I would ask for examples of words you have learned artificially winning you rounds. I'm not sure how good you are, but I think that for the vast majority of players (I would say about 95%) the usefulness/time taken ratio is just so small as to not be worth it.

As for 6 small, I think the way you took a step back helped you to stop panicking and start thinking more analytically about the problem and that was probably more conducive to your improvement than actual techniques. But like I say, the lines between learning and practise are blurred because by learning these techniques you're engaging yourself anyway.

Ultimately it's a personal thing. I would go so far as saying that if you spend an hour learning words, the improvement you think you've made will be enough to give you a psychological improvement that will win you more rounds than any of the words you have just learnt. One of the plateaux that I overcame in my improvement at this game was believing that I was when I realised I was gonna get something good in the round. Before that I panicked a lot after half the round was gone and I had no 7, and hadn't even looked at 5s or 6s for security. Once I got over that I got much, much better.

As for the other plateaux, not one came after a period of study. But again, that's just me. I am, however, a great player.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Charlie Reams »

Richard Brittain spent ages learning words before the Corby game and of course none of them came up. You really need to ingest a large number of words in a very efficient way for it to make any difference. Clearly some players can do this but most players would benefit far more from just improving their consistency on common words.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by David Williams »

I imagine you could make yourself word-perfect in limited areas if you wanted too now that you can access a full list of allowable words.

For example, extract every word that contains all of AEINRST, and sort them

ARTESIAN - ABSTAINER, ASCERTAIN, STERADIAN, . . .
BANISTER - ?
CANISTER - DICENTRAS, . . .

Not a massive effort to complete and memorise if you think it's worth it. Or am I way off the pace, and everyone's doing this anyway?
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Gary Male »

The Apterous Stemmer, where all the cool kids are. And Jono.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by David Williams »

Never been a cool kid, I'm afraid!
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Kirk Bevins »

David Williams wrote:I imagine you could make yourself word-perfect in limited areas if you wanted too now that you can access a full list of allowable words.

For example, extract every word that contains all of AEINRST, and sort them

ARTESIAN - ABSTAINER, ASCERTAIN, STERADIAN, . . .
BANISTER - ?
CANISTER - DICENTRAS, . . .

Not a massive effort to complete and memorise if you think it's worth it. Or am I way off the pace, and everyone's doing this anyway?
I think Simon Myers may have to say something here. It's interesting as this is a slow(ish) process and means some rounds you're coming up with simple 5s and missing loads but then other rounds you're getting DICENTRAS and people look at you oddly!

The word learning (and word spotting) process takes years. In my opinion, if you audition, then pass then have like 2 months before you appear and you want to be awesome, then time and experience will be against you. You can learn some nice stuff like all the stems from CANISTER and memorise them but if CANISTER never comes up, you're screwed.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Junaid Mubeen »

I definitely agree with you Kirk that word spotting takes years to develop, at least in my case this is true. However I did not learn any 'obscure' words until after my second heat game, where I had a 6 week break. In that time I didn't learn stems, rather just one word list after another, each containing high probability words. With apterous I was able to get tons of practise in and eventually spotted many of these words with real consistency. I do think learning words alone is not enough and that practise is needed. But I think if you are already good at word spotting, then it's more a matter of months than years to make that step up. To get to the Gallen/Fell/Travers level probably would take years, due to the sheer volume of new words that would need to be learnt.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Just ask Apterous Rex what he does next time you're on.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Clare Sudbery »

Kirk Bevins wrote:In my opinion, if you audition, then pass then have like 2 months before you appear and you want to be awesome, then time and experience will be against you.
Well... I auditioned in Jan, passed and altogether will have had about two and a half months by the time I'm on... and I'm certainly not going to be champion-material awesome by the time I'm on, but then again (a) my brain is old and tired and I have such things as small children conspiring against me, (b) I doubt I ever could have been super-champion material - I've never been a quick enough thinker, (c) I've definitely improved my performance significantly. By a multi-pronged approach of (1) learning good numbers techniques, (2) some targetted word-listery, (3) total obsession and (4) practice practice practice.

Of course until I actually go on the show we won't know just how much all this pays off, but I'm definitely more confident than I was.
Last edited by Clare Sudbery on Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Clare Sudbery »

Jon O'Neill wrote:
Clare Sudbery wrote:Fwiw I'm at a level where word-learning practice is genuinely beneficial (that level may be lower than whatever you're contemplating, I dunno - all I can tell you is that it's helping), but I'm still reading this thread.
Well I can't really argue with evidence but I would ask for examples of words you have learned artificially winning you rounds. I'm not sure how good you are, but I think that for the vast majority of players (I would say about 95%) the usefulness/time taken ratio is just so small as to not be worth it.
Haha, where did you get 95% from? Let's face it, this kind of thing is going to be very personal. What works for one may not work for another. To be fair, I'd say the stuff I'm doing with the numbers is much more effective than learning word lists, but I'm being extremely targeted in the lists I'm learning, and I think it's worth it. I'll have a better idea when I've played more games post-list-learning, but if I get just one 8-letter word on the show as a direct result of my lists, then (IMHO) it was worth it.
Jon O'Neill wrote:As for 6 small, I think the way you took a step back helped you to stop panicking and start thinking more analytically about the problem
Aha. Yes, but that's just it. I took a step back, looked at the problem analytically, and what conclusion did my analysis lead me to? That I needed a step-by-step approach. I came up with one of my own, which was to split the target into prime factors, or if that didn't give good results find a more factorisable number of (target +/- n), where n is one of the numbers available. I then practised this new technique and was getting somewhere but was still too slow. Then I came on here and read the technique of dividing the target by the highest available number and continuing until I had the nearest possible number obtained by abcd (where a, b, c, d are available numbers) and then inserting strategic addition and subtraction into the multiplication. Then I practised this new technique and got much better results. And this to the extent that before, unless there was a really obvious answer, I was left at the end of 30 seconds with nothing at all. Whereas now, I'm starting to get complex solutions within 30 seconds. And I'm not just staring at it all blankly and thinking, HELP! I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO START THINKING ABOUT THIS!

So, as I've been saying, I improved by a combination of practise and learning specific techniques (and then practising them). Practice is indispensable, but I'm kind of amazed that you're still trying to claim that practice on its own is all that's needed. Whenever you try and improve your skills in any area, you use a combination of technique-learning and practice. The less effort you put into finding the best techniques, the less effective your practice will be, but yes, of course you can improve by brute practice alone.
Jon O'Neill wrote:Ultimately it's a personal thing. I would go so far as saying that if you spend an hour learning words, the improvement you think you've made will be enough to give you a psychological improvement
That's definitely a factor. The more confident you are, the less you panic, the more you are able to think calmly and rationally, and the better you perform.

But the best example I can give is 6-small. I moved from just staring at the numbers and vaguely trying to make 100, to thinking, "Right, I have a 9. I need to divide the target by 9. And then by the next biggest, and then keep going until I have an expression I can tinker with." So I moved from nothing to having a technique. And I got that technique from this thread. And now I can do 6-small, whereas before I couldn't. Dress that up however you like, but I reckon it proves my point.

And now I'm going to go and learn word lists in the bath! ;)
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Jon Corby »

I wouldn't get too hung up on practising 6 small if I were you unless you plan on selecting it yourself - the chances of coming up another contestant who picks 6 small is pretty small, and even then it might throw up an easy one for you. David O'Donnell, for example, clearly spent a long time studying 4 large as he comes out with some wonderful solutions when you play him. However, on the show, the only times he selected 4 large (ie when he needed to make the points on his opponent, which due to his word strength, wasn't at all often) it threw up piss-easy games. Bang. Days upon days of practice wasted. JUST PLAY THE DAMN GAME. Take a while to look at the words/numbers solutions you miss. That's my advice.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Michael Wallace »

Jon Corby wrote:I wouldn't get too hung up on practising 6 small if I were you unless you plan on selecting it yourself - the chances of coming up another contestant who picks 6 small is pretty small, and even then it might throw up an easy one for you. David O'Donnell, for example, clearly spent a long time studying 4 large as he comes out with some wonderful solutions when you play him. However, on the show, the only times he selected 4 large (ie when he needed to make the points on his opponent, which due to his word strength, wasn't at all often) it threw up piss-easy games. Bang. Days upon days of practice wasted. JUST PLAY THE DAMN GAME. Take a while to look at the words/numbers solutions you miss. That's my advice.
This is an excellent point which I'm surprised hadn't occurred to me sooner when reading this thread. I'm planning on doing some statistical stuff on the importance of numbers in Countdown at some point, but certainly from experience it seems highly unlikely hardcore numbers practice will make much difference. Indeed, when I was on both my 6 small picks came out really easy (and I dropped the first 2 large game because I got distracted trying to do something more complicated than I needed to - something I probably wouldn't have done if I'd just practised more).
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Clare Sudbery wrote:And now I'm going to go and learn word lists in the bath! ;)
I agree that it's a very personal thing, as we've both said. I don't think I can add any more than what four or five brilliant Countdown players, nay, LEGENDS have already said.
Jon O'Neill wrote:Just PRACTISE and eventually you will be good!
Charlie Reams wrote:Clearly some players can do this but most players would benefit far more from just improving their consistency on common words.
Kirk Bevins wrote:The word learning (and word spotting) process takes years. In my opinion, if you audition, then pass then have like 2 months before you appear and you want to be awesome, then time and experience will be against you. You can learn some nice stuff like all the stems from CANISTER and memorise them but if CANISTER never comes up, you're screwed.
Junaid Mubeen wrote:I definitely agree with you Kirk that word spotting takes years to develop, at least in my case this is true.
Jon Corby wrote:JUST PLAY THE DAMN GAME. Take a while to look at the words/numbers solutions you miss. That's my advice.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Charlie Reams »

And lots of that advice is in capitals, which logically speaking means it must be right.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Gary Male »

I can't really add anything to the technical side of the game (but will blather on anyway), but the sheer unlikeliness of any given word to come up is notable. From 221,313 letters rounds on Apterous, RELATIONS (and anagrams) has appeared in fewer than 100 rounds - and that's including hypercountdown with 12 letters in the selection. You'll be getting 88 letters games maximum during your first visit to the studios, with maybe 33 more to come later in the year. It's not many compared to 80,000-odd words that are valid.

I'm not one of the greats by any means. Pretty much the only word that I learned specifically through "training" before my octochamp run was CATERAN. And as sod's law would have it that word came up in the game before my first appearance. Just about every (valid) word I offered was either a Countdown favourite or an very common word that just needed finding. Just spotting those is enough to beat perhaps 95% of all players in a series. All the stemming in the world won't help you with words like MOHAIR or VACUUMS but spotting those type of everyday but unlikely words will probably win the round outright. If you can get an 8 from OLNAGUSET then almost all the time you're going to split the points or win the round outright regardless of what stemming work you've done. And if you lose the round then the other player is probably gonna go on to win Champion of Champions anyway so you might as well enjoy yourself and relax.

If time wasn't a factor and you had 5 years to prepare (hello Kirk) then stemming, cramming, etc would almost certainly be the way to go. As it is, whatever is giving you the confidence that you will do well and be relaxed is definitely right.

As long as you remember that 30 seconds is a hell of a long time, you'll be fine.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Charlie Reams »

Gary Male wrote:If you can get an 8 from OLNAGUSET then almost all the time you're going to split the points or win the round outright regardless of what stemming work you've done. And if you lose the round then the other player is probably gonna go on to win Champion of Champions anyway so you might as well enjoy yourself and relax.
I got the 9 and I didn't win anything :(
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Martin Gardner »

Yeah to be honest I only started word learning after my final Countdown appearance. People do underestimate it - you need to do a lot of it for it to be effective, that's true. But I retain words really easily, if I see a word once I can usually remember it. The only thing I did before appearing on Countdown was use Andy's Anagram Solver and type in lots of commons letters, and then check them against the NODE. A good one that came up was PISTOLE that I actually got to play. Other than that, just watch Dictionary Corner and try and retain those words. There's maybe a thousand or two thousand key words that you need to know - but you don't need to know every single one, just the more the better. I remember when DC didn't yet know the word DRACONE, and several times a month I could get a DC-beater with this (or its plural). I think IDOCRASE was another one I could do that with. So forget learning loads and loads of word, unless you want to be a Series champion, and just study what Dictionary Corner does, as well as what happens on the spoiler forums on here.

As has been quoted loads in Scrabble and on here, most of the time when you miss a word, it's one you know. If you never missed a word you know, you could still get 110 points a game without the other words.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by David Williams »

Imagine someone with perfect memory and anagram skills but no knowledge of English (like a computer). Set it to watch Countdown, and remember everything declared by contestants and Dictionary Corner. How long before it could play a decent game? Put another way, I wonder how large a set of words would you be able to restrict yourself to beat the average contestant? Not a vast number, I'd wager.

(I'm not suggesting this as a means of improving. You can remember all the gametic palinodes you like, but it won't stop you missing leotard when it's staring you in the face.)
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Gary Male »

David Williams wrote:Imagine someone with perfect memory and anagram skills but no knowledge of English (like a computer). Set it to watch Countdown, and remember everything declared by contestants and Dictionary Corner. How long before it could play a decent game? Put another way, I wonder how large a set of words would you be able to restrict yourself to beat the average contestant? Not a vast number, I'd wager.

(I'm not suggesting this as a means of improving. You can remember all the gametic palinodes you like, but it won't stop you missing leotard when it's staring you in the face.)
Hmm, that's quite testable I think. Take a week's worth of games from the recaps, add the offered words to an anagram solver, then play a few games. Add another week's words, repeat and rinse.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Roxanne »

As the small numbers go up, I multiply them in my head, then they're fresh in my memory when the target comes up.
Say the numbers going up are 4, 9, 7, 5, 5, 75.
In my head I'm going 36, 63, 28, 45, 35...
There's usually a 10 or a 1 or a duplicate so it doesn't get too tricky.

Knowing your 75 times tables is important too, as shown in one of the numbers rounds today :)
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Ian Fitzpatrick »

Roxanne wrote:As the small numbers go up, I multiply them in my head, then they're fresh in my memory when the target comes up.
Say the numbers going up are 4, 9, 7, 5, 5, 75.
In my head I'm going 36, 63, 28, 45, 35...
There's usually a 10 or a 1 or a duplicate so it doesn't get too tricky.

Knowing your 75 times tables is important too, as shown in one of the numbers rounds today :)
That's cool, never thought of that, I always start from cold.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Hannah O »

Do your 75 times tables in 150s-
2 x 75 = 150
4 x 75 = 300
6 x 75 = 450
8 x 75 = 600

and so on! It makes it quicker if your target is close to any of the products of the 75 and whatever other number you use.
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Kate Richardson »

Remember how many word games there are compared to how many numbers and conundurum games.

If you get maximum points in all numbers and conundurum you get 40 points, and are running the risk in the numbers games that your competitor is going to get the same as you so net result = 0. Tactical play in numbers games feels to me like a stranger playing snookers in a good pool pub (when i played pool this could be very dangerous play on the popularity front)

And it doesn't matter how sophisticated you are working them out 30 numbers points is 30 numbers points (2 nine-letter words in normal word games)

---ing, ---iest and hybrid words could be there but sometimes you may just see something so go with that, you never know

i think un--- re---- words are fraught with danger, whatever i think may be plausible is never right.


To practice I enjoyed looking up animal descriptive names (cervine, cancrine, zebrine, hippotigrine anyone ?)

minerals (zincite, calcite etc)

flowers (acacia, oleander, oleanders, wisteria)

body parts (femoral, brachial, adrenal, cerebral etc)

and looked up words in the dictionary as they came into my head

My favourite words at the moment are frowsty, frowziest, - (some would say my dress sense/personal style ahem) ablation (I had an embolisation in the summer I think this is resonant with that experience), oblate and prolate (so many uses in everyday language).
But i guess that's me.
Clare Sudbery
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Clare Sudbery »

Martin Gardner wrote:As has been quoted loads in Scrabble and on here, most of the time when you miss a word, it's one you know. If you never missed a word you know, you could still get 110 points a game without the other words.
Fwiw I'm not learning unusual words, i.e. when using word lists, my aim is not to increase my vocabulary. I have a massive vocab already, that's not the problem. The problem is spotting all those words that I know, but I can't see. The theory is that a bit of stem-swotting will help me to spot 8-letter words, but I haven't been doing it long enough to tell you whether it works.

Here's my theory:

(1) I'm quite good at spotting words, but not brilliant. Some ways I can get better are (a) practice, and (b) stem-swotting. I'm not sure that three months of practice is going to significantly improve my word-spotting ability (you've either got it or you ain't), hence wanting to boost it with other things. I confess I may be on a hiding to nowhere here though - like I say, you either got it or you ain't. I suspect people like Kirk have different wiring in their brains. But yes, practice is v. important, and I'm doing that. Oh, and there are loads of other little tricks which help - writing the letters down, keeping an eye out for -IEST, etc etc.

(2) Not only am I quite good at the numbers, there's vast room for improvement, and it's achievable by learning and practising new techniques. OK, so 6-small may not come up (unless I decide to pick it myself, which I yet might), but I'm not focusing on that, it's just one small area of study. Being able to walk into the studio confident that I can get most numbers solutions could give me a significant edge - I could pick up a key 10, 20 or even 30 points over my opponent. Definitely worth doing.

(3) I'm enjoying all of this. I have a maths degree, I love numbers, whether or not I was going on Countdown I would enjoy the puzzle-solving aspect as well as the variety of trying my hand at different numbers games. I love all the word stuff too, and the lists take me right back to the days of swotting for French and German A level.

How much actual difference any of this will make is pretty unquantifiable, but the confidence alone makes a difference - as has been said above.

It's weird, I'm feeling very much on the defensive here, like you're all determined to talk me out of doing anything other than brute practice. Which is, well, odd. But I'm happy doing what I'm doing, and I'll enjoy writing it all up into a "Things Which Might Improve Your Game" thingy when I've finished... which will contain stuff which wil be useful to some, interesting to others, infuriating to yet more... but people will be able to cherry-pick whatever they think might work for them.
Clare Sudbery
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Clare Sudbery »

Kate Richardson wrote:If you get maximum points in all numbers and conundurum you get 40 points, and are running the risk in the numbers games that your competitor is going to get the same as you so net result = 0. Tactical play in numbers games feels to me like a stranger playing snookers in a good pool pub (when i played pool this could be very dangerous play on the popularity front)
Ah yes, but think of it this way: Most Countdown enthusiasts are stronger in words than they are in numbers. And most CD competitors are capable of spotting 7s and 8s. I know from playing along at home that I'm only slightly better than your average contestant where words are concerned. I also know there's a limit to how much I can improve on this. Not that I'm not trying, just that there are limits.

On the other hand, most contestants are comparitively weak on the numbers. I only need to beat them at one or two numbers rounds and I'm potentially 10, 20 points ahead. Which is significant.

Of course it's a gamble. Of course I may get trivial numbers in every numbers round and be unable to gain anything from it at all. But that applies to everything. The fact is I can significantly improve my numbers performance in a way I can't with the letters, and although numbers rounds may be in the minority, they still make up an important proportion of the game.

I'm still practising words too though. Obviously.

Once I've been on the show, maybe the stats geeks can try and quantify how much advantage I gained from my numbers performance. They'll enjoy that. ;)

As for favourite words... hmmm. I'm liking RENEGADO and ENDANGER at the moment.
Clare Sudbery
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Clare Sudbery »

Jon O'Neill wrote:squirming penis
Just seen this. Disgusting, puerile, but also moderately amusing.
Gary Male
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Gary Male »

Clare Sudbery wrote:
Jon O'Neill wrote:squirming penis
Just seen this. Disgusting, puerile, but also moderately amusing.
wonders if Jono's squirming penis always gets this reaction
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Michael Wallace
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Re: How-To Guides

Post by Michael Wallace »

Clare Sudbery wrote:Once I've been on the show, maybe the stats geeks can try and quantify how much advantage I gained from my numbers performance. They'll enjoy that.
Damn right I would. If you let me know when you start practising the numbers I could start doing some statistics-fu on your apterous data if you want.
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