Playing words you don't know

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Robert Lozyniak
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Playing words you don't know

Post by Robert Lozyniak »

I was watching some old episodes of Countdown online. More specifically, I was watching some with Kirk Bevins, and here's what I make of it:

Watching a game with someone like Kirk Bevins playing is boring. Clearly he had just memorized a list of legal plays. So while the other contestant is trying "dodgy" words, Kirk is trying these obscure words which he "hopes" are in... and of course they are in, because they're on the list he has memorized! That's not so bad by itself, but combined with him not knowing anything about the words beyond them being legal plays, it made it dull to watch. The other contestant might as well have been competing against a computer.
The icing on the cake was the HEDARIM incident (episode 4769). Shame on Kirk for not being able to help out Susie ("try looking under HEDER"). Or should that be shame on the dictionary authors for not putting a cross-reference under HEDARIM?

Which makes me think: from what I gather, there are a lot of international players of English-language Scrabble who don't speak English. Now, as Kirk has made it clear, you don't need to be able to use a word in a sentence to be able to use it on Countdown.

Just for fun, I'd like to see some people with no English (except a memorized word list, and enough mathematical vocabulary for the numbers round) on Countdown. My guess is that they would outperform most of the people who've been using English their whole lives. Or maybe the people on this forum might want to practice for Bir Kelime Bir İşlem.
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Mark Deeks
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Mark Deeks »

Calling Kirk out specifically is both unfair and incorrect. It's unfair because lots of people do it and you've singled out one in particular, which is silly. And it's incorrect because Kirk tries harder than many of us to actually learn the bastard properly rather than just the spelling. It is he who looks up all the words he learns/declares in the dictionary. Many others do not. So that's a wrong card to be playing.

You're right though that he, as did I, as have many others, memorised word lists. Why? Partly to try and win, because winning is more fun than losing. But also because learning words is fun. It teaches you things. However, even if you don't learn the definition in the process, you're still learning. You're learning all you need to succeed at the competition you wish to succeed at. You can either learn things slowly and organically over a long period of time, and in a textbook way, or you can fasttrack that learning in a more optimum way bypassing the bits that are nice but which aren't relevant or necessary to this, the field in which they are being measured. Do whichever you think is best but don't claim one is more righteous.

Remember this bit:
Now, as Kirk has made it clear, you don't need to be able to use a word in a sentence to be able to use it on Countdown.
It's a spelling and anagramming game, remember. That's the field you're measured in. That's all you need. If you want more, fine, but it's not fair to find fault if others don't.
Shame on Kirk for not being able to help out Susie ("try looking under HEDER"). Or should that be shame on the dictionary authors for not putting a cross-reference under HEDARIM?
The latter, obviously.
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Innis Carson
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Innis Carson »

I doubt that everyone in the history of the show who's ever declared 'Countdown favourites' like DACOITS and TANGELO knew what they meant either. It is and always has been a part of the game, and not something anyone should have to feel bad about.
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Jon Corby
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Jon Corby »

Kirk's a shit who ruined the game for evermore.
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by sean d »

Mark has it right about the parameters of the game. Clearly it's perfectly valid to learn word lists for a word recognition contest. Robert has a point about the spirit of the game though. Personally I find it much more satisfying to find a winner it a word I know. I feel a bit of a fraud playing UAKARI or TENEMOI but I'll sooner play it than lose a round!

Watching the brilliant Dylan flirt with max games while mis-pronouncing 2-3 words per game is awesomely impressive but somewhat unsatisfying. (Again its unfair to single anyone out but as a recent player and one of the greats he stands out). I know that my frustration stems mainly from not being able to live with the likes of Dylan though!
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Mark Deeks
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Mark Deeks »

Personally I find it much more satisfying to find a winner it a word I know.
So I imagine do people who learn word lists. I know I do. But if you're capable of learning a spelling, you're capable of learning a meaning. So do it if you want. I just don't see why one approach is considered so sacred. Learning without knowing the full meanings is surely just an optimised way of learning for the game, no?

It's also beneficial to learn meanings for the purposes of the game, so you know not to try and plural TEMENOI, given that it's already a plural. That does not mean you could use it in a sentence or identify it by picture. But again, that's not being measured here.

Also, don't read too much into the pronunciations things. That's a whole third thing right there. I pronounced GARDENIAS and IDOLATER wrong on the show - although I knew what they meant, I didn't know how to pronounce them. Thought I did, yet it turns out I didn't. A bit embarrassing but not ultimately important in a spelling and anagramming competition.
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Gavin Chipper
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Gavin Chipper »

This sort of thing has come up loads in the past. I suppose the thing for some people is that Countdown isn't thought of as a super-competitive game like chess or even Scrabble where there are world championships. Countdown is a fun teatime game where until relatively recently, you would rarely get slaughtered by the contestants too much. It was a game where someone could play at home and if they were good, they could apply to go on, and perhaps even have a shot at winning the series. It would be almost impossible to do that now. You have to train for hours (you might not call it training if you're having fun playing, but basically you have to do that) to have a chance now. So whether you see it as good or bad or neutral, Countdown has changed. And because it's not a recognised competitive world or national event, people may see it as a bad thing and "against the spirit" of the game. And obviously playing a load of words you don't know the meaning of (and more than just a few Countdown favourites like TANGELO and DACOIT) is all part of this.

I'm not saying that people should stop playing Apterous or not play words unless they know the meaning, but I can understand where these people are coming from. And I can understand where they are going to as well. Hell.
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by David Barnard »

At the end of the day we are here to win and as mad as it sounds if I see GONOLEKS and LOONIES I'm not going to say 'oh I know what a loony is but I know gonoleks is in but I'll turn that down as I don't know what it means'. That would be silly especially against one of the top top players as they'll have probably spotted it too.
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Heather Styles »

I agree that a Countdown contestant with no English (except a memorized word list, and enough mathematical vocabulary for the numbers round) could outperform a contestant who had been using English their whole lives. I imagine that they would need extraordinarily good memory and recall skills, and it would help them to have some understanding of English grammar as well as vocabulary, but it could happen and would be interesting to see.
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by David Williams »

When word lists were first available my initial reaction was a bit disapproving. It didn't take me long to realise I had a whole similar vocabulary myself, and probably less excuse. I've got no idea what a DRACONE is, despite Susie telling me a dozen times. But I still have great admiration for Julian Fell, who had clearly read the dictionary (his dodgy words were valid, even non-Scrabble ones), but also knew what they all meant. He certainly knew what the infamous GAMBIERS meant, which made it all the more unfortunate that Susie disallowed it.
Jack Worsley
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Jack Worsley »

Countdown's a word spotting game rather than a word definition game so until that changes (which it won't), I don't see any need to learn the definitions, unless you're genuinely interested or it helps you in ways which others have outlined. It always amuses how people seem to think that the top players just scour the dictionary and memorise a word list all day and it makes them really good. In reality, knowing a word is one thing, being able to spot it is another. In my opinion, the latter needs far more skill and training yourself to spot obscurities regularly is the most difficult part. People who manage to do this are clearly dedicated so I don't think offering a word you don't know the definition of is against the "spirit of the game" at all. Nothing more to add that hasn't already been said.
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Jennifer Steadman
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Jennifer Steadman »

I'd be a hypocrite to say that people should know definitions of the words they play, but I think someone who knows the definitions AND spots the best words available is the most impressive player. There's nothing wrong with not knowing them, because it's fun trying to guess what a word means from how it sounds, but learning words, learning to spot them AND learning the definition makes it a more 'complete' process, I guess.

Being able to define words and being able to pronounce them is an entirely different matter though. There are loads of words, even fairly common ones, that I can define and use in a sentence, I just can't say them - either because it's not intuitive or I've only ever seen them written down. UITLANDER for example - looks to an English speaker like it should be pronounced 'you-it-lander' when it's actually said 'oyt-lander' (I think). It's not something you're likely to have found through any means other than idle Wiki-ing/uni research, so how on earth would you know how to pronounce it?!
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Zarte Siempre
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Zarte Siempre »

For the record, I have no issue with people playing words they don't know the meaning of (I have a bit of an issue with people showboating words they think just look good when there's a simple 7 there, but that's another matter), but whilst I realise that "just" knowing words may require less skill, it's arguably far more useful than just knowing how to pull them out of a jumble. I've always thought that we should be actively encouraging people to look into the words they're playing on a regular basis for the promotion of language rather than the "Oh good 7, what's it mean?" "Not a clue" exchanges that you get at the moment.
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Matthew Tassier
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Matthew Tassier »

11 months into my study of the titles of 17th century restoration comedies, dystopian Russian novels, films of the silent era and the songs of Justin Bieber I'm feeling pretty confident about the upcoming family charades this Christmas.
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Karen Pearson
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Karen Pearson »

I actually like to know the meanings of words and do try to find out the meaning of a lot of the more commonly-played obscure words (if that isn't an oxymoron). However, there are a lot of words in the dictionary so it is inevitable that we will all spot and play words whose meanings we don't know.

Most of us who play foreign language Apterous don't know the meanings of all (or any?) of the words we play. I am pretty fluent in Spanish but still play loads of words whose meaning I don't know. In some cases, I make up my own meanings. For example, MATAR means To Kill so REMATAR means To Re-kill surely! (It actually means To Top but I always think of it as To Re-kill).
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Gavin Chipper »

To continue from my other post, I can quite imagine that some people might find the idea of playing a game for hours at a time that is just a case of finding certain arbitrary combinations of letters out of random scrambles (the fact that they can also be used as words being irrelevant) to be somewhat degenerate.
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Mark Deeks
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Mark Deeks »

Well, that's why most people try to learn them, no? In fact, who here openly admits that they never try to learn the definitions? Anybody?
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Jon O'Neill
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Mark Deeks wrote:Well, that's why most people try to learn them, no? In fact, who here openly admits that they never try to learn the definitions? Anybody?
I like to learn the definitions of words because it interests me.

It's not the same thing, but I think the benefit of learning the definition of words to your ability in the letters game is massively overstated.
Martin Thompson
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Martin Thompson »

Of course, the other side of the coin is not playing you words you know.

For example, I know perfectly well that AEGIRINE is a mineral, but for some reason isn't in the Oxford dictionary.
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Stewart Holden
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Stewart Holden »

Allan Simmons writes this in The Scrabble Player's Handbook:

"It is probably true to say that most top players learn many thousands of words without any regard to the definitions. In contrast, there are many social home players who believe that a player should know the meaning of words that they play. In the tournament and club movement across the world, there is no requirement to define words that are played. That is probably just as well because it would be both time-consuming and a nightmare to enforce fairly. The delightful OBANG, for example, is defined as “an old Japanese oblong gold coin”. If a player had to define it to be able to play it, could any parts of the definition be left out and it still be passable? And what if it was misrecalled as a “square coin”? So you see, there can be no rule insisting on definitions.

Having said that, an interest in what the words mean can certainly help your Scrabble. It can aid recall and also allow you to make informed guesses as to whether a word can take an -S, behave as a verb, or perhaps take a Latin plural form. But if you want to improve your Scrabble vocabulary expediently it is best not to worry too much about what the unusual words mean."
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Martin Bishop
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by Martin Bishop »

I think Scrabble is a bit different. My perception as a non-Scrabbler is that there are so many ridiculous words in that dictionary (such as OBANG which is not countdown valid), speaking English as your first language seems to be barely a head start.

I do get a bit frustrated when playing the super-aptonerds. I can't compete with that level of word knowledge. I can feel like I'm playing really well, but there are a couple of rounds a game where there's nothing I can do. I am more than prone to the odd moan of "yeah but they only know that because they spend their entire lives on Apterous". And it really rubs it in when they can't pronounce simple words.

I know it's ridiculous. No one complains about Andy Murray only being good at tennis because he practises every day. It's more me being a bad loser than anything.
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Re: Playing words you don't know

Post by David Barnard »

I know a LOT of words I don't know the meaning to, same as when I played scrabble but I find I have limited brain space to know what all the words mean so I'm more of a word list guy, some people scour dictionaries to learn, I scour word lists and use anagram sheets, it's far easier that way although some may frown upon it
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