????? in Nottingham 2013

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Which game would you rather play in this years ?oNot?

Countdown
10
50%
Goatdown
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Total votes: 20

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Ben Wilson
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????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Ben Wilson » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:20 pm

It's been 2 years since the community last gathered in Nottingham in the summertime to play word games and repeatedly kick a ball/themselves over a fence. This is altogether too long, therefore the 4th Countdown in Nottingham will, god willing, be going ahead this August.

Or... maybe it won't. There have been over 30 co-events now and I'm always seeking ways of making things a bit different. CoNot 2009 was the first ever co-event to be played to 15-round games, and this year I'm thinking of making things even more different. Therefore I'm proposing the first ever GoNot tournament- Goatdown in Nottingham.

Assuming enough people are up for it, of course, hence the poll. The date I'm planning is 24th August, 3 weeks after CoBliv2.

Let excitement commence.

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Andy Platt » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:53 pm

I think that date is quite close to London and to Leamington Spa, so it would overcrowd the calendar a little bit if it were to be just a case of the same format again, and I'm not just saying that because of my involvement with the second one, it's just, you know, steak every night is great, but too much of a good thing etc etc.

I think an inaugural Goat tournament would be an excellent idea, something different enough to give an event a new welcome flavour, but not different enough to put people off or somehow be unpopular as it's still basically the same game. Besides everyone knows it's really more about the social side anyway.

Would you go LLLLLLN LLLLLLN C?
I think this sort of thing would attract the players that maybe aren't as keen on numbers like Matt etc.
I also want to see the mental picks that a combination of a Countdown board game with a dodgy letters distribution and the Goat format throws up.

Again, awesome idea that I think would go down very well with most regular players. You'd probably also tempt a few hidden gems out of event retirement with this I reckon. The negative might be I feel we might lose some lower rated or newer players who aren't as confident with alternate formats. But it's not like we're playing hyperrussiangoatdowntouchjuniorduckdown, it really is just the same thing.

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Thomas Carey » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:19 pm

Ah, so GoNot didn't mean 'there'll be one, but I'm not letting you go to it because you appear to be stalking me' which was my first thought after your youtube comment. Yes, I'm slow. :derpemoticonwhichdoesn'tseemtoexist:

Will it still be Bristol style?
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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Andy Platt » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:32 pm

Thomas Carey wrote:Will it still be Bristol style?
Is Bristol style the one where everyone picks to the same letters?

That'd be pretty rubbish if only one person in the room was picking the goatpick at a time, but weirdly it might be hella interesting if every pair gets the goatpick between them so you could have a situation where like TRNSOAIE comes up, and say, for example, in Matt v Tom, Matt picks an A for the 9, or in Kirk v Jen, Jen picks an I for that 9, or in Andy v Dan, Andy picks a Q cos he's a right bellface.

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Paul Howe » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:16 pm

Andy Platt wrote:
Thomas Carey wrote:Will it still be Bristol style?
Is Bristol style the one where everyone picks to the same letters?

That'd be pretty rubbish if only one person in the room was picking the goatpick at a time, but weirdly it might be hella interesting if every pair gets the goatpick between them so you could have a situation where like TRNSOAIE comes up, and say, for example, in Matt v Tom, Matt picks an A for the 9, or in Kirk v Jen, Jen picks an I for that 9, or in Andy v Dan, Andy picks a Q cos he's a right bellface.
I think this is a really neat idea that I hope is implemented if the Bristol style is chosen (my preference is to have separate letters on each table but Nottingham does have a tradition of following the CoBris style). In any case I would love to see a real life goat event and would try my best to attend.

How does the dynamics of "timing out" when choosing the last letter work when you play it live? On apterous you have something like 3s, in real life it seems a bit fiddly both for someone to time it, and for the picker to be aware of exactly how much time they have left without the visual aid of the patience bar. Do you just trust people not to take ages? The timings of the rounds would be a bit uncoordinated if you had CoBris style but with every pair picking the final letter as some would take longer than others.

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Ben Wilson » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:42 pm

Paul Howe wrote:
Andy Platt wrote:
Thomas Carey wrote:Will it still be Bristol style?
Is Bristol style the one where everyone picks to the same letters?

That'd be pretty rubbish if only one person in the room was picking the goatpick at a time, but weirdly it might be hella interesting if every pair gets the goatpick between them so you could have a situation where like TRNSOAIE comes up, and say, for example, in Matt v Tom, Matt picks an A for the 9, or in Kirk v Jen, Jen picks an I for that 9, or in Andy v Dan, Andy picks a Q cos he's a right bellface.
I think this is a really neat idea that I hope is implemented if the Bristol style is chosen (my preference is to have separate letters on each table but Nottingham does have a tradition of following the CoBris style). In any case I would love to see a real life goat event and would try my best to attend.

How does the dynamics of "timing out" when choosing the last letter work when you play it live? On apterous you have something like 3s, in real life it seems a bit fiddly both for someone to time it, and for the picker to be aware of exactly how much time they have left without the visual aid of the patience bar. Do you just trust people not to take ages? The timings of the rounds would be a bit uncoordinated if you had CoBris style but with every pair picking the final letter as some would take longer than others.
At the moment I'm leaning toward Edinburgh-style actually, though may revert to Bristol-style depending on how logistics works out. As for timing out the picker, if there's too much hesitation I/the game's host will pick a final consonant or vowel from the pile to make the selection up to 5C4V or as close as possible.

EDIT: And it'll be a 9-round format for all games.

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Gavin Chipper » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:01 pm

Paul Howe wrote:How does the dynamics of "timing out" when choosing the last letter work when you play it live? On apterous you have something like 3s, in real life it seems a bit fiddly both for someone to time it, and for the picker to be aware of exactly how much time they have left without the visual aid of the patience bar. Do you just trust people not to take ages? The timings of the rounds would be a bit uncoordinated if you had CoBris style but with every pair picking the final letter as some would take longer than others.
I think it would be the same as normal letters wouldn't it? Apterous gives a time limit for normal rounds whereas "real life" doesn't. I don't see any particular need to hurry people in Goat any more than normal. As in all situations, people will get impatient if you sit there for ages not saying anything, however.
Andy Platt wrote:Would you go LLLLLLN LLLLLLN C?
I think this sort of thing would attract the players that maybe aren't as keen on numbers like Matt etc.
I'm not sure I really get this thinking. When the majority of rounds are letters anyway, the gain or loss of the odd numbers round really makes no difference to someone wanting to play letters, whereas it makes quite a big difference to numbers enthusiasts. It's just greed!

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Andy Platt » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:16 pm

Ben Wilson wrote: As for timing out the picker, if there's too much hesitation I/the game's host will pick a final consonant or vowel from the pile to make the selection up to 5C4V or as close as possible.
On Apto you simply get get an S shoved in your face. This might be easier?
Ben Wilson wrote:EDIT: And it'll be a 9-round format for all games.
We gonna take LLLL LLLL C then?

Edit: Yeah Gavin, the standard Goat format on apto is LLLLLLN LLLLLLN C, that's why I was curious. But I think for 9 rounder LLLL LLLL C looks very smart

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Ben Wilson » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:27 pm

Andy Platt wrote:
Ben Wilson wrote: As for timing out the picker, if there's too much hesitation I/the game's host will pick a final consonant or vowel from the pile to make the selection up to 5C4V or as close as possible.
On Apto you simply get get an S shoved in your face. This might be easier?
Possibly. I'm not too sure where the 'final S' compromise came from in the first place, presumably as the S is statistically the most desirable letter to make niners.
Andy Platt wrote:
Ben Wilson wrote:EDIT: And it'll be a 9-round format for all games.
We gonna take LLLL LLLL C then?

Edit: Yeah Gavin, the standard Goat format on apto is LLLLLLN LLLLLLN C, that's why I was curious. But I think for 9 rounder LLLL LLLL C looks very smart
Not sure yet. The whole appeal of Goat is in the letters, after all, but you can't completely excise the numbers games without losing a key feature of the game. Christ, this is a lot to think about and I haven't even booked the hall yet...

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by James Robinson » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:39 pm

I'll definitely come whichever way it is, although a Goatdown tournament definitely has the uniqueness factor to its advantage. :D :D :D
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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Paul Howe » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:33 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Paul Howe wrote:How does the dynamics of "timing out" when choosing the last letter work when you play it live? On apterous you have something like 3s, in real life it seems a bit fiddly both for someone to time it, and for the picker to be aware of exactly how much time they have left without the visual aid of the patience bar. Do you just trust people not to take ages? The timings of the rounds would be a bit uncoordinated if you had CoBris style but with every pair picking the final letter as some would take longer than others.
I think it would be the same as normal letters wouldn't it? Apterous gives a time limit for normal rounds whereas "real life" doesn't. I don't see any particular need to hurry people in Goat any more than normal. As in all situations, people will get impatient if you sit there for ages not saying anything, however.
Yeah but in goat there is a substantial advantage from delaying on the last letter as you get longer to form a cunning word. I remember back in the day the timer first appeared for just the last letter in goatdown before its wider adoption, and it was needed because people were taking aaaages. Having said that I think apterous would benefit from relaxing the timing a bit just on the last letter as it might encourage more creative picking, there has to be a limit somewhere though (Id say longer than 10s was taking the piss a bit).

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Adam Gillard » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:39 pm

Paul Howe wrote:Yeah but in goat there is a substantial advantage from delaying on the last letter as you get longer to form a cunning word. I remember back in the day the timer first appeared for just the last letter in goatdown before its wider adoption, and it was needed because people were taking aaaages. Having said that I think apterous would benefit from relaxing the timing a bit just on the last letter as it might encourage more creative picking, there has to be a limit somewhere though (Id say longer than 10s was taking the piss a bit).
I think the time limit on the goatpick is good as it is; it's part of the challenge of Goatdown on apterous and helps you get into the habit of spotting potential words before they are available in the selection in any variant.
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C1: SIGNATURE (18) ["9; not written down"]
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Score: 108–16 (max 113)

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Gavin Chipper » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:47 pm

Ben Wilson wrote:Not sure yet. The whole appeal of Goat is in the letters, after all, but you can't completely excise the numbers games without losing a key feature of the game. Christ, this is a lot to think about and I haven't even booked the hall yet...
But it's just the letters that you're goatifying anyway (obviously), so (also obviously) its appeal is only in the letters. But it doesn't then follow logically that the numbers should be marginalised any more than it does to say, having played a few games of goatdown, that we should play normal letters (rather than goat) and that since the appeal of normal letters is on the letters, we should have fewer numbers games. The style of letters is unconnected with the number of numbers rounds.

Well, on Apterous, it might make sense because you're playing a game of Goatdown specifically for the goat letters, but that might just be one game you play in a session on Apterous. A live event is a completely different affair. Most people aren't likely to be going specifically for the goat letters, but just to play Countdown generally and for the social side so there's no need to reduce the numbers.

Also, just from observation and playing a few duels (and no statistical evidence), I think variants and goat and touch widen the gap between the top players and everyone else. A weaker player is likely to get absolutely hammered in a game of goatdown anyway, and to reduce or eliminate the numbers rounds will only compund this. It will favour the elite.

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Gavin Chipper » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:52 pm

Paul Howe wrote:Yeah but in goat there is a substantial advantage from delaying on the last letter as you get longer to form a cunning word. I remember back in the day the timer first appeared for just the last letter in goatdown before its wider adoption, and it was needed because people were taking aaaages. Having said that I think apterous would benefit from relaxing the timing a bit just on the last letter as it might encourage more creative picking, there has to be a limit somewhere though (Id say longer than 10s was taking the piss a bit).
I agree that it's a very short time at the moment and could be lengthened. And while there might be a greater advantage in delaying in goatdown, someone can still delay for ages in normal and find a pretty decent word from the first 8 letters and have a good idea of what might stem from it. I would say that it's best to trust people not to take the piss and get the hosts to hurry people up Jeremy Paxman style. After all, there seem to be no specific time limits in University Challenge.

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Paul Howe » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:38 am

Adam Gillard wrote:
Paul Howe wrote:Yeah but in goat there is a substantial advantage from delaying on the last letter as you get longer to form a cunning word. I remember back in the day the timer first appeared for just the last letter in goatdown before its wider adoption, and it was needed because people were taking aaaages. Having said that I think apterous would benefit from relaxing the timing a bit just on the last letter as it might encourage more creative picking, there has to be a limit somewhere though (Id say longer than 10s was taking the piss a bit).
I think the time limit on the goatpick is good as it is; it's part of the challenge of Goatdown on apterous and helps you get into the habit of spotting potential words before they are available in the selection in any variant.
I may start a ticket on apterous to see what people think (I doubt many will care either way tbh). One of the sad things about elite level countdown is that the balance changes too much away from the natural process of anagramming and towards "regurgitation", for lack of a more eloquent term. I think having a longer time limit on the last letter gets you away from this a bit, encourages people to think more creatively and produces a greater diversity of picking. With the current time limit you dont really get time to do that and it causes people to fall back on the regurgitation aspect when picking which I think is a shame.

From the perspective of training you to play countdown the short time limit probably is better, although I would say its more the fishing aspect of goatdown that encourages people to think ahead rather than a strict time limit. But really the game should primarily be about fun rather than training you to play better countdown, and I think it would be more interesting to play if the time limit on the final letter was extended slightly.

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Andy Platt » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:41 pm

Everyone wrote:Some stuff
Even as a numbers-biased player, I would probably prefer to see this tournament as just letters.
There's also the practical element to omitting the numbers rounds too, no extra fiddling about with random number generators and stuff.

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Ben Wilson » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:19 pm

Unfortunately, due to the traditional CoNot venue now having a regular Saturday booking, it looks like GoNot won't be go-ing ahead.

GoNoT, on the other hand...

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by James Robinson » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:48 pm

Ben Wilson wrote:GoNoT, on the other hand...
Does NoT mean Newark-on-Trent.......... :?: :?
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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Ian Volante » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:53 am

Newcastle Upon Tyne I hope :)
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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by James Robinson » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:13 pm

James Robinson wrote:
Ben Wilson wrote:GoNoT, on the other hand...
Does NoT mean Newark-on-Trent.......... :?: :?
Ian Volante wrote:Newcastle Upon Tyne I hope :)
Erm....................... :roll: :P
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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Ian Volante » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:43 pm

James Robinson wrote:
James Robinson wrote:
Ben Wilson wrote:GoNoT, on the other hand...
Does NoT mean Newark-on-Trent.......... :?: :?
Ian Volante wrote:Newcastle Upon Tyne I hope :)
Erm....................... :roll: :P
Lol, erm Newcastle Upon Tyne? Stupid brain.
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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Ben Wilson » Sun May 19, 2013 7:42 pm

In case you're wondering why I've been silent for a month, it's because I have been spectacularly unable to find a venue for this in, well, the whole of Nottinghamshire. So, sadly it looks like Co/GoNot/NoT is a no-go/co for 2013. :(

However, I still reckon the concept of a Go- event is one that deserves to be tried out at least once, so I'll definitely look into it (with a bit more advance planning) for 2014. In the meantime, I have the tenth COLIN to plan and prepare for- and believe me, this one's gonna require a lot of planning, a lot of preparation and a lot of excitement. :)

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Stewart Gordon » Fri May 31, 2013 10:36 pm

I know I should be more active on this forum! It would certainly be good to do CoNot again, just as long as it isn't in the first half of August.

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by James Robinson » Fri May 31, 2013 10:44 pm

Stewart Gordon wrote:I know I should be more active on this forum! It would certainly be good to do CoNot again, just as long as it isn't in the first half of August.
Well, there's always COHUD, Stewart. As long as you're good in the first half of July. ;) :) :D
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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Andy Platt » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:39 am

Did Barney Barnard contact you about this Ben, he said he possibly had a couple of decent central locations to explore if you still wanted to do it this year

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by Ben Wilson » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:15 pm

Andy Platt wrote:Did Barney Barnard contact you about this Ben, he said he possibly had a couple of decent central locations to explore if you still wanted to do it this year
Not heard from him but I have had a few pointers to venues in Nottingham that I'll be looking into next year. :)

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Re: ????? in Nottingham 2013

Post by kieranbray » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:48 pm

I'd definitely be interested in an event in Nottingham next year, be it a Co or a Go :)

For a Nottingham or Lincoln event especially, could you please advertise it on Apterous as this is the first time I've even seen this thread!!

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